Parapunter, be very very glad it was flour/talc and not red lipstick!!!! :E (Yes I've had the misfortune of being on the receiving end of a wall full of red lippie, courtesy of my 2 year old cousin....)

Nanocas, most aircraft actually will have some sort of change facility in the restroom, on the aircraft that don't the crew would usually only be too happy to give you a folded blanket to lay across the closed seat in the toilet to use as a mat, that is if they dont have one of the portable table/mat contraptions (lots of aircraft with no table have a seat which closes flat to the 'platform' of the lav for this purpose...) I do agree if you're on a small plane (like 10 seats or something) then it may not be avoidable... but if you're not sure, ask, we're here to help :D

I don't have anything against kids themselves, as I said we've had many lovely children on flights, a few weeks ago we had one delightful little bloke who wanted to help us pick up all the rubbish and also hand out the arrival cards (of course we okayed it with mum & dad for him to collect rubbish, lol) He had a great time, future cabin crew in the making!!!!

Parapunter, the majority of responses here appear to be morons jumping on the bandwagon. Going by the photo of your child, I'm sure you know as well as I do that the range of behaviour from children matches that of adults...

Even the best behaved child at two years old is going to have a resistance to being told to sit down in for a seat belt at the end of a journey and that's where good parents use distraction techniques or similar to try and achieve the aim. Airlines, how about trying to help by coming up with a seat belt that is attractive to kids..something bright and fluffy that just slides on to a normal belt or extension..only cost a few pence as a give-away and guaranteed to work?

As far as the comments on here professing various levels of disgust at children, drugging children, generally being fed-up with children and complaining about having to deal with children as part of the job (on public transport by the way) well, I think they're childish....:ok:

very well said strake!!!:ok:

Well I think so too! I'm keeping things light, but to be honest, there are one or two respondents I would dread to meet on a flight!! Just a tiiiny bit too much attitude! As for drugging a child:eek:

Distraction works a treat with mine btw...

Whilst the UK might not be on the top of the best 'parenting skills' list, I find that it is children from other cultures that are the worst. Without being branded as a racist or starting a war of words from posters from non christian religions, a lot of my flights are to the east of Europe where it seems culturally acceptable for children, in particular boys to do just as they please. The fathers sit elsewhere and laugh whilst their wives are left to deal with the 'brat'. There are several religions that promote this behaviour.

Very often I am glared at by parents if I ask a child who is running amok up and down the cabin to sit down because it is bumpy. I am not trying to offend any faith when I ask a child to sit down, I am sure whichever God you choose to worship would rather meet you later rather than sooner.

And it is not only Chavs from the UK, I once had the misfortune of taking the children of a Prime minister on a flight. One of them was a complete 'brat' and its mother was not at all concerned.

6

Nanocas

I think you have misunderstood me or I didn't explain enough, the reason I asked the GP for advice was because our son did have an ear infection at the time. we were asking was it ok to take our son on a flight at that age which whilst a trivial complaint for an adult it may cause real problems for the child. He suggested sedatives to make it a less traumatic event for the child not specifically for us. The alternative was to cancel the holiday and the hassle of arguing with insurers.

Having been on a flight where a < 1 year old child screamed the whole 5 hour time despite what everyone said or did, I didn't want to get in to that situation. And yes if a child screams for 5 hours it has a problem but once the doors are closed it's a bit late .........

And p.s., he's now 16 just completed Duke of Edinburgh Silver and started college with 11 GCSE passes with a view to becoming a medical student in 2 years time. So we must have got something right.

Good grief...:ugh:
The GP should lose his licence, pronto, and for following his advice, you clearly demonstrate that a previous poster, who ever so wisely stated that people should have a licence before reproducing, is spot on!:mad:

Also, which airlines are you all working with? Chav Central it seems. I have flown more, as a passanger though, than some of the cabin crew ranting here and rarely have I seen a situation, where kids are misbehaving badly.
Also, no disrespect, but to have a FA babysit my kid, well - no thanks.
It takes a bit more than serving drinks and repeating safety instructions to look after a child.

Let the knives fly.....:}

Edited to add:Why? Why would anybody get their kids hyperactive about a plane ride?? Kids don't hyperventilate over a mere thought of a taxi ride or ride in a boat, what's so different about a plane? It's a form of transport just like all the others.:rolleyes:

That would be a run-of-the-mill pram toy, many of which I've seen the smart parents bring on board with them to entertain baby. Colouring book, toy car, teddy bear... whatever it is, as some parents posting on this thread have said, work a treat and they bring them along... why should the airline provide the toys, it's just passing on the responsibility, which is what we are complaining about, not the actual kids!!

Example: the other day we were 2 hours delayed on the ground. We gave out some snacks for the kids (the usual nuts/pretzels/crisps type thing) and of course there was one parent who got angry at me because their child "couldn't eat those nasty airplane nuts". Well I'm sorry, we were doing our best, if they knew their kid cant eat the plane food then what is wrong with having something as a backup?

Meanwhile the mum and dad with 2 kids about 4 rows back had brought a bag of small snacks and fruit, some juice bottles plus colouring books for their kids, who were happily colouring in and not hungry. Obviously it can be done! :}

Yes we do what we can but we can only do so much. Parents make it so much easier for themselves when they come prepared, assume the airline can do nothing for you, and pack accordingly!!

I always bring a lunch or snack just in case I don't happen to like my crew meal, I don't complain to catering that they need to load something that *I* like....

5000+ sectors here my friend, it is not ranting - it is what we see every day. Chav Central? Exactly, that would cover about 80% of all short haul flights...

Yes - I am sure some child benefits paid out of my pay packet are alot more use to you.....

Dont fly - take a ferry, rent a caravan

That is because they are used to their locally well behaved kids - whereas in back in the UK they all know what to expect....

Look guys - in all seriousness, like it or not - we as crew do a hell of alot more flying than any one of the slf outthere and have a very good view what is going on. There is a huge problem in the UK with one half being the best peeps you would ever meet in the world , and the other half scum. If you fall in 1st category then this post is not aimed at you, if you fall in the 2nd then you are part of that disease that is gripping the UK - anti social behaviour disease.

:E

lauderdale exquisitely demonstrating why no sane parent would ever entertain a thought of asking FA to look after his/her child...:hmm:
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Haha, they are only on holiday for a few weeks a year, its the other 40 weeks when they are in school that I have to deal with apalling behaviour and attitude, thats why the first thing teachers do when we get back to school in Spetember is to book October half terms trip!
I travel in J to try to avoid them as well, my son knows his manners and would stay at home with his Gran if he didnt behave, when he was 7 he wanted a drink and raised his hand much to the surprise of the CC, he was doing the politest thing he knew to attract attention,

Little Red Hat,

Hear what you say...but..!

When your airline advertises 'We don't cater for children' then you have a valid complaint. Until then, you work for a public transport service provider. If you work for that service then you must expect to deal with the good and the bad. That includes the young, the old, the infirm, the rude, the polite and every other flavour of humanity.
Of course, you don't have to enjoy it...I don't particularly enjoy the hassle of flying at the moment but it's my job so I just have to put up with it as best I can.

Hear! Hear! Parapunter, slrake and others...

Unbelievable comments from (alleged) cabin crew on this thread. Young children are little people..y'know... HUMAN BEINGS who have different needs to the rest of us for a couple of years. Can it really be such a strain to provide that small amount of bit extra care on one flight out of ten?
It seems to me that some (alleged) cabin crew should consider a career change to the prison service.

Oh for ***'* sake I wish folk would read (and understand) what is being written before posting.

Cabin Crew are more than happy to help parents and children.

READ THESE

Cabin crew are more than happy to help out, it is part of their job!

BUT

from the passenger who started the thread

Do any of you out there find any of that acceptable behaviour by the PARENTS?
The crew are in most cases not having a go at the children, perhaps the thread title should have been Naughty Kids = bad parenting = exhausted cabin crew, with the emphasis on the bad parenting.

Yes I've endured 2 hours of being kicked in the back whilst mum & dad sit back & drink.

We approached it slightly differently by deliberately not taking our son on an aircraft until he was old enough to understand what was going on and had enough social skills not to annoy other people. I know some parents have no choice but to fly with young children - and from what I have read on here (in other similar threads as well) most of them are "switched on" enough to not let their children cause annoyance. To those parents - well done.

To those parents that think: -
1/ It is not their responsibility to look after their children
2/ That they can act in some of the ways described

I'm speechless.

Absolutely correct 10/10 for that paragraph
But whose responsibility is it to look after their own children, entertain them or provide something to stop them getting bored, clean up after them in some cases, hygienically dispose of their waste products to the toilet/rest room, keep them from getting injured or injuring others - the parents or the cabin crew.?

West lakes...you do have some valid points there..

To those parents that think: -
1/ It is not their responsibility to look after their children
2/ That they can act in some of the ways described

I'm speechless.

I came back from Cologne yesterday (thankfully before German SAS "stormed" aircraft) and there was a Mum on her own with a 2 and 4 yr old.

Now, she had serious sympathy from everyone until she started to ignore the kids and have an in depth telephone conversation with hubby/lover/partner. What was surprising was how other people in the lounge started looking after the kids almost automatically. Care instinct I suppose.
Sometimes yes, the parents need a good talking to but a child is a child.
It surprising how quickly a "brat" can turn into a quiet little person who just wants to rest their head on your shoulder after a bit of TLC...
Maybe, some of the angry crew on this thread could try it sometime...they may be surprised at how good they feel.

Possibly true.

Unfortunately, except for disabled pax, others have an equal call on their time. If I understand the industry correctly those airlines that carry unaccompanied minors do designate cc staff to look after them. On most flights there are probably insufficient staff to look after accompanied children.

West Lakes,
I think the extreme examples of bad behaviour you quoted are probably the exception rather than the rule.

you said:
"I don't have anything against kids themselves, as I said we've had many lovely children on flights,.."

Well, it is actually normal that kids are not always "lovely" and "cute" and quiet all the time, they are kids! still growing and still having to learn how to deal with the world around them, fatigue, new environment etc...

As far as the parents are concerned, just because a child is screaming or throwing a tantrum, does not mean it is due to poor parenting! Like I said before, I have 3 kids all raised the same way, I always bring onto the plane toys, pens, paper etc.. to keep them enternained, yet my youngest daughter (3 yrs old) still refuses to sit down buckle up and she does throw a tantrum particularly at the end of the flight if she is tired. If people here get annoyed about it, and expect that parents will magically make them lovely again, then I am sorry but it is those people complaining who show a lack of compassion, tolerance and understanding towards children.

But really, what shocked me the most about your post was:

"We approached it slightly differently by deliberately not taking our son on an aircraft until he was old enough to understand what was going on and had enough social skills not to annoy other people."

:eek:What????? Do you mean that people should not fly with their babie's/ small kids because they "don't have enough skills" yet????:eek::confused:

" I know some parents have no choice but to fly with young children - and from what I have read on here (in other similar threads as well) most of them are "switched on" enough to not let their children cause annoyance. To those parents - well done."

Well, I do have a choice, and I do choose to fly with my kids, and so, according to you, I must be "switched off" because, like I said before, my daughter does cause what you call "annoyance", but what I would call "being a tired child and not knowing how else to express it".

It all depends on what some here call annoyance, some people get annoyed at the kid in the front seat looking at them, and some (like me) don't. etc....
And the extreme cases quoted here such as kids spitting, poo in the overhead lockers, kids tripping the crew... I am sure that kind of extreme behaviour is more the exception rather than the rule..;)

Thank you West Lakes. You got there before me and saved me having to do all those quotes!

Strake,

We'd love to be able to provide a shoulder for a little one to rest their head on but we also have anything from 100 - 400 other people clamouring for our attention. We don't have the time or resources to do this. As previous crew have said, we are happy to look after a child while mum or dad goes to the loo and help out wherever possible. We understand that children will not always want to sit still for 2 hours and may decide that now would be a good time to give their lungs a work out. That's kids for you and I will always defend a family in this situation if other people are complaining. None of us are talking about this sort of situation. We are talking about the parents that don't give a damn about the safety of the children or others around them.

nanocas,

Having a child staring at you over the back of the seat, talking to you constantly and generally not leaving you alone, may not be a nuisance to you, but it is to many others. Have they not got the right to a bit of peace and quiet?

And just out of interest, what do you do to keep your little girl safe if she won't stay strapped in?

You're living in a dream world. These cases are not the exception to the rule. Unfortunately it's the other way round. But hey ho. Like everything else in this sorry state of a world, IT'S YOUR RIGHT to fly and sod everyone else!

Jsl

We'd love to be able to provide a shoulder for a little one to rest their head on but we also have anything from 100 - 400 other people clamouring for our attention. We don't have the time or resources to do this.

Sorry, Jetset, but I can't believe you really are crew...if you are, then you've forgotten your training.

Every time we fly with our kids, the crew are more than happy to to see them and treat our children as individuals.

Re read my post Strake!

Jsl

No I was giving a narrative of the choice my wife and myself made, it was our choice as we felt it was the best at the time and prevented any problems occurring.
Others are welcome to make their own choices.

All the quotes I put in that previous post were from earlier on in the thread and were put there as examples of differing attitudes.
They were not my words, but those of cabin crew & other passengers (which is why they were quotes)
If you read the thread from the beginning you will be able to find them.

This is choice time, I'm not going to comment upon what I thought - you tell me what you think

Monday this week, I visited the dentists. The surgery is in two terraced houses that have been internally joined, they were built in the 1800's and have steep stair ways & extensions at the back.
Most of the treatment rooms are upstairs as is a small waiting room, there is one downstairs used for disabled patients and another waiting area.
It was mid afternoon and appointments were running a bit late owing to an earlier emergency, as a result the upstairs room was full.

A family of 5 arrived, mother, father, a girl of about 6or7 and twin girls of about 3.
All came upstairs, the children first and about a minute before the parents, as they waited they began playing at the top of the stairs, with the older sister trying to keep the young ones in some sort of order.
Parents arrive, mother sits down & calls the children away from the stairs - no result, older sister tries to get the younger ones to go to their mother & gets shouted at for causing trouble.
Father decides to go downstairs to wait & takes the twins with him, 30 secs later they both appear at the top of the stairs, then go back down. (at this pint every member of staff clearly warned the children about the dangers of running up & down the stairs - no result. No interest from the mother they continue going up & down the stairs & playing at the top.
A few patients had then been seen so there was space upstairs so the father appears, sits down next to his wife and all the children settle down. The fathers phone then rings, and he appears to read a text message, mother looks on as he rads it & starts to compose a reply. The children who are boisterous begin to pus & shove, argue over who sit where - the sort of thing that you would expect youngsters to do when excited, but with nothing to do.
Parents totally ignore them.

Were the children being naughty?

Were the parents paying proper attention to them?

Were the parents concerned for their safety?

Should other adults (patients) have cared for the children (bear in mind this is the paranoid PC UK)?

Should other adults (staff) who were all busy cared for the children (and by doing so further delayed appointments for other patients)?

You tell me

nanocas

The situation you describe in your post with your girl falls into the first catagory where the CC will help as you are trying to do your best (I am sure)

If you were the type parent who EXPECTED the crew to deal with it while you did nothing you would fall into the second.

And there lies the subtle difference

That interests me as well.

Another true story

Small turboprop operating into an airport with a shortish runway such that on landing the brakes had to be applied hard on.
Piece of equipment at the rear of the aircraft not secured properly.

Upon braking that piece of equipment travelled from the rear to the front down the aisle and smashed into the flight deck door damaging it, fortunately it did not injure any passengers.

If children are unsecured does anyone want to see a child do that?
Does anyone want that child to be injured or worse lose it's life?
Does anyone want another passenger (possibly another family member) injured?

Or should the aircraft keep circling the destination until the child can be persuaded to have their seatbelt on (bearing in mind that, at least in the UK) have to wear them in a car.


The leaning over the seat back & chattering to other pax I think is minor - if an adult can't switch off to that well......
Crying cos they are tired - not surprising all children up to a certain age do

Hi west lakes,

No of course I would never think it is the job of the crew, or anyone else, to take care of my girl. Also, I never said that children should just be allowed to fly/land unstrapped, on the contrary, it is so dangerous!

In my case, my 2/3 yr old girl often "refuses" to have her seat belt attached (like I said especially if she is tired..), so it goes something like this: I attach her, she tries to unbuckle, She does not manage, she starts crying, I try explaining to her, she cries even more, she wrigles herself down and manages to escape the belt, I sit her down again and buckle her, she cries again, I try being nice, not nice etc... but it will go on like this for 4/5 times until she eventually gets tired or I finally put her in an extension belt on my lap (sometimes it works!)

To jet set lady, I am not saying it's ok to let kids stare at the pax sitting behind, it's just that I have had kids do that to me and was not annoyed at all (be happy, there are so many bigger annoyances in life than being stared at by a child)! at the end of the day, they will also get bored of that "game" . And I really do not think that public transport is a place to seek "peace and quiet", it would be nice, but rarely the case.:)

At the end of the day, as long as parents take care that the children are safe and not being rude/unpolite towards others, others have to accept that within these parameters, children can still act like children.

"You're living in a dream world. These cases are not the exception to the rule. Unfortunately it's the other way round. But hey ho. Like everything else in this sorry state of a world, IT'S YOUR RIGHT to fly and sod everyone else!"
Boy! I never noticed that the majority of kids today, spit at people, trip them etc... and there is poo everywhere.. etc... Sure, manners, respect etc... are going downhill (the reason I put my 12 year old in the strictest catholic school I could find!) but I never noticed the world was THAT bad! Also, why do you think that me having the right to fly is part of making the world into a sorry state??:eek::confused:

nanocas

And that actually is the point that the cc (and some pax) are trying to make.

You care, you want your children safe, you, I assume, if you need assistance will ask for it and probably get it. But you are prepared to accept responsibility for your own children

Sadly there are a lot of folk out here that take the "it's someone else's problem" approach to life - those are the ones being criticized here.

Some of the "tantrums" we had with our son when he was that age were stuff of legend, which is in part why we decided not to inflict him on others. He is now 18 and has turned into a rather polite intelligent adult I hope yours do the same.



On another note folks should remember that this is an anonymous forum, that is used by airline staff to let off a bit of steam (and anyone in any industry dealing with "customers" that doesn't I would worry about) I have no doubt that in their daytime guise their attitude to the customer is exemplary.

I am not involved with this industry (apart from knowing some of the folk on these forums) but have been dealing with the public in my occupation for 35 years and have come across some "interesting" situations in that time.
Have I dealt with them to the customers satisfaction - mostly, within the constraints set by my employer and the law
Do I hate customers - no. (well at least my managers think I don't)
Do I have a venting session with colleagues in the office - yes.
Do I see tragedies involving children when they come into contact with my industry - yes (there was a 14yr old killed 2 weeks ago in the UK despite all the required safety precautions being in place).
Have I had to deal with incidents like these - yes and it saddens me.

Westlakes, hear hear. My thoughts exactly.

To all those parents getting upset- we are NOT complaining about those of you who TRY to control your kids. Yes, kids throw tantrums, yes, they take off their seatbelts and don't want to put them back on. Yes, they kick, scream and cry.

I'm not some monster who doesn't care. Many a time I've come off a flight with bruises because I've tried to help mum/dad out and Little Angel has kicked/hit/tried to bite me while we were putting the seatbelt on him/her. If I've seen Little Angel fussing about a seatbelt earlier in the flight I'm there at the top of descent offering mum/dad an infant belt for landing. Older kids I give them a game, like "When the plane stops I'll come back and I want you to tell me how many planes with red on you saw at the airport" (Sounds silly but you'd be surprised how often it works!!!)

We are not complaining about parents (sometimess fruitless) efforts to control their kids. We're complaining about parents who DO NOT TRY. Which as said earlier, if you're doing as you describe on this thread then you are most certainly trying.

The airline can only do so much, sure if the kids are unnaccompanied minors then we give them our individual attention. Colouring packs, playing cards, the inflight entertainment.

It's not 'part of my job description' specifically but on occasionas I have:

* Spent 30mins walking a screaming baby up and down the cabin on a night flight so mum could have a break (and everyone else :E)

* Sat with a little boy colouring in for abot an hour on a quiet flight, we drew pictures of the plane and later he gave me the drawing, I still have it

* Sat with older children and explained how to use the seat-back tv screen

* Taken a young girl (14 years) into the terminal to make sure her mum was there to meet her, as she had not flown alone before, even though she had NOT been sent as a U/M and therefore not "officially" my responsibility...

* Helped a 2yr old 'go potty' because mum was flying alone with a brand new baby (yes wasnt that pleasant but i did it)

The outstanding theme to all of these occasions??? Every time, the said parent had been doing their best to do most things themselves, and asked me pleasantly and politely "if it isnt too much trouble, and you have time...."

THAT is the difference. That is the point we have been trying to make.

We do NOT hate kids.
We do NOT hate parents.
We KNOW kids have tantrums/scream/cry/stare at people/throw things/poo
What we DO hate is the non-caring behaviours explained throughout this thread.

Hope this clears things up a bit, and yes this is a place for us to vent, at work, faced with the nappy in seat pocket issue (dealt with it many times) I assume mum and dad havent flown before and just give them a little explanation of what they can do with a diaper (in the toilet there's a change table, here it is, over here are the air sick bags, when you're finished with the nappy pop it in here, wrap it up and put it in the bin just here *smile*)

9/10 times parents are happy someone has actually shown them where it goes, sometimes they think it shouldn't go in the bin because it might smell. I try to show them the bathroom which with be furthest from other pax and the galleys :}

Little red hat and west lakes, thanks for putting things in perspective, very sensible posts finally! :)Unlike some who suggest that because you have a young child you should "take a ferry, rent a caravan etc.."

There were just some posters here who get things totally out of proportion and sound like they just have a dislike and intolerance to kids. Those are clearly in the wrong job. And yes, even though I do take care of my kids I might still ask the crew "can you please tell my child to sit down and strap up?" this is not because I haven't tried myself , but because (I think most parents experience this) the little darlings will react differently to a stranger telling them off rather than mom. just the way it is sometimes...
cheers

Glad we all understand each other... it's hard to get our point across sometimes without people thinking that we 'must hate children'....

And for the parents, it doesn't hurt to ask us to help but please don't be offended if we can't, or do not have the resources that you need. Help yourselves out by coming as prepared as you can be, if on occasion something comes up that you're unprepared for, then please ask, we'll do our best and can be quite 'inventive'... e.g.... little boy throws up, soils clothes on long flight... mum has forgotten spare clothes... we found spare 1st class pyjama top for the kid to wear...

So, hopefully this thread has taught each side a little about the other... parents ask nicely, crew don't assume all kids are brats, if we each respect the other we can make the flight easier for EVRYONE, not just the kids/parents/crew but the other pax as well!

nanocas,

Firstly, I apologise. My last paragraph to you was a bit heated and probably, unfair, but I get so frustrated when people assume I'm a child hater that thinks children shouldn't be on board. For example, strake took my post completely out of context. He quoted;

And then went on to claim I'm probably not crew and if I am, I've obviously forgotten my training, whilst not bothering to quote the next bit, which was;

I do my best for parents travelling with children. Like LRH, I show parents travelling for the first time with children where to find the baby changing facilities, offer to heat up milk, get permission for the children to see the flight deck after landing etc. etc. I will also back you to the hilt when it comes to getting your little girl strapped in and if people complain that she's crying, I'll tell them, and have done many times in the past, that the childs safety is more important, than their discomfort for a short while.

But at the same time, I think you'd be surprised how many parents have absolutely no interest in what their children are doing onboard an aircraft. There are so many ways a little one can get hurt and I've seen it happen.

For the record, when it comes to children standing on the seats, I don't allow it for the very same reason as you, safety. But regardless of that, I still wouldn't allow it as some people really don't like it and I have to try and keep everyone happy, not just your child. Time and time again, I see children going down the aisle chatting to other passengers. Some are happy to talk, others just want to read a book or work. You say they shouldn't expect peace and quiet on public transport but we're not talking a train or bus here. They can't just get up and move away. They're stuck where they are and children are amazingly persistent. If you have a right to fly with your children, why shouldn't they have a right to read a book in peace?

Jsl

I pity the Gulf Air 'Sky Nannies.' :uhoh:

Just an explanation of that, I was referring to the annoyance to other passengers.
As was pointed out to me, there is of course a safety issue if the a/c hits turbulence with an unrestrained child stood on a seat.

Absolutely, they also do not have the same view of danger to adults which is why, it is endemic on their parents to ensure their safety by following the instructions given by those trained to recognise the risks of their behaviour.
(That's not to say that a lot of adults have a good view of what is dangerous either)

Lets face it if the aircraft hits sudden turbulance do you think an unrestrained 2 or 3 year old would react quickly enough to brace itself?
If that child is injured, despite warnings to the parents by cc, who do you think is responsible, the cabin crew or the parents?
In this, stupid?, world of taking legal action who would get taken to court if another passenger was injured?

Seat Belts
As I understand it there are two modifications that can be fitted: -
An extension so the belt will fit a single larger passenger
Infant belts that are a separate belt that attaches to the main seat belt.

I would suggest that if anyone is using the former type to go around two people (adult & child) that in the event of sudden severe braking there is a high risk of injury to the child being crushed between the adult & the belt. (this is why in the UK at least it has always been illegal to use a car seatbelt in this manner).
With the second type if the child is older, larger or heavier than the design limits of the belt, it may not restrain them in an emergency.
That is the risk that cc are advising parents of and by ignoring their advice parents accept responsibility for any result

Face it though aircraft accidents are few and far between so safety is dumbed down in the eyes of many. Car accidents are common so parents usually follow the safety laws there.


Part of the issue in this and other threads is the difference in culture (that leads to the "we pay your wages" cry).


The cabin crew (and flight deck) are trained to view their prime (legal) responsibility as ensuring passenger safety on the aircraft and taking charge in an emergency. This aspect is NOT pushed by the airlines as that doesn't sell seats. (though oddly car makers use advanced safety features to sell cars)
The passengers view, in part because of the airline advertising, the prime duty of the cabin crew as passenger service & comfort.

A lot of the comments on these forums are owing to this culture difference.
Oddly I thing that the airline staff are aware of this difference, but it seems that a lot of passengers haven't actually worked it out.

Just a link which may be useful to the mums and dads out there.... a kiddy selt belt approved for parents to carry on by CAA/FAA/CASA etc

http://www.kidsflysafe.com

LRH,

This has not yet been approved for use by the CAA, only by the FAA. They are conducting trials at the moment but unfortunately, until such time as we get the go ahead, we are not allowed to permit their use on our aircraft in the UK. Hopefully, this will not take long and these belts will soon be permitted across the whole industry as I think they're a great step forward for the safety of children.

As westie has raised the subject of infant seat belts, I thought it may be a good time to explain something else concerning their use. Those of you that regularly fly on UK carriers will probably know that the upper age limit for their use is 2 yrs old. I'm often asked why, as 2 yr olds come in vastly different sizes. The way it was explained to me was that studies had been done showing that a toddlers spine starts to stiffen at that age and therefore, can not take the pressures that a younger childs spine can take. They are less likely to suffer the injuries that can happen when on the lap of an adult if sudden braking occurs. I'm not sure if I've explained that very well but that is basically the reason we have to insist on children over 2 being sat in their own seats for landing and take off.



Jsl

Sorry Jetset Lady, my mistake... will be great when they do get approved...

though what are the chances some pax sat behind will complain about the restraint showing on the seat in front? :E

I know also there's a little bit of controversy over the infant seatbelts thing, however from what I understand the parent with infant brace position, done properly, is meant to minimise risk of injury to the child from the adult... (if you look at the pictures, the adult is kind of to the side of the child.. if that makes sense)

Anyway, we're not debating that I know.... Thought some of the parents out there might find the harness useful if travelling to countries which approve them.

Hi LRH,

I hope it gets approved soon too. It's much better than the current arrangement. We have leather seats on board and I always worry that the smaller children are going to slip underneath the belt. And anyone that complains about these restraints on the seat in front of them, will be asked to take their complaint to the very highest level...of the airbridge!

Jsl

Just to give a little balance here:

We (2 adults, 2 children (2yrs, 3yrs)) just flew from Finland to UK and back. Stocked up with toys, colouring books, pencils and snacks for the 3 hour flights. Both kids were perfectly behaved on the flight, though 2yo got a bit fidgetty towards to end.

Not once did we need to reprimand our kids, the 3yo happily coloured in books for the the whole flight there and back. We used the toilets when we needed to change a nappy (fortunately a precautionary measure in this instance). Not once did we need to leave our seats (other than the toilet visit). Not once did I even consider walking the kids up and down the aisle etc etc.

There were at least two other familes on the flight I took earlier this week: one made the same preparations as us, the other didn't...how one of the cc didn't bundle that kid into the waste cart I don't know!

Flying with kids is simple: preparation - make sure you have enough entertainment for the flight: books, sweets etc. Lay off the fizzy, sugary drinks and perhaps a little parenting between birth and present day helps too. OK, so sometimes s**t happens - a cc colleague of mine solved this with buying a round of drinks for the nearby pax, however tantrums rarely last long anyway...

I don't ask for baby sitting services, I don't ask for toys and other entertainment to be provided (though a small book and toy car were more than appreciate by the 2yo). I don't ask anything special from the CC and I promise that I will ensure that my kids will remain under my responsibility for the entier duration of the flight. Simple eh?


fc101
E145 driver

* Blue1 cabin crew :ok: - a letter thanking for excellent service on way to your employers as I speak.

* Personally the worst behaved kids I've ever come across on flights tend to be wearing suits, typing into laptops and sitting in the first few rows of a cabin... :)

hmm most kids are great a few little brats but that can be said of most sections of society. Indeed some of my favourite passsengers have been children as they are often the only people smiling at the end of a 14 hour flight. Now the business cabin that's where I've witnessed some of the worst tantrums! (No real offence intended J class pax!)

To GEST,

I find your incinuation that because I am an FA I am uncapable of looking after a child insulting in the extreme. One assumes you arrogance is likely to have rubbed off on your children which is rather a shame and not at all their fault. A good demonstration of the feelings expressed by the SLF who started this thread.

FWIW I'm a uni graduate about to make the move to the other side of the flight deck door and have two small nephews who I look after regularly.

Just as I am sure you would prefer me not to make assumptions about you based on your employment may I ask you to afford myself and my colleagues the same courtesy.

Thanks

<I find your incinuation that because I am an FA I am uncapable of looking after a child insulting in the extreme.>
<FWIW I'm a uni graduate about to make the move to the other side of the flight deck door>

:eek:

Matt101, I sincerely hope that English is not your first language (it's not my mother tongue which is apparent I'm sure)!
Because otherwise, apart from wondering about the educational standards of your university, one is quite worried about your future passengers once that " move to the other side of the flight deck door " is completed......
:uhoh:

Well, a few spelling mistooks aside, Matts post is cogent.

For me, it's clear most FA's frustrations lie with bad parents, but based on this thread, there is a section with a terrible attitude, so I guess that reflects both sides of this divide.

The strange thing is, screaming kids used to drive me mad, I really hated being on a bus a plane, anywhere where there would be a stroppy child yet since I became a parent, I find the reverse is true - honest! I find myself drawn to watch the argument & have even found myself smiling at it - been there done it thing I suppose.

I find it very depressing to see toddlers and little kids given sweets/burgers/toys/anything to placate them when the opposite is the ultimate effect, parents need to do parenting & that includes the tough decisions - too often people give in for a quiet life or abdicate the responsibility, but it's a mistake to do so.

Then again a few professionals who deal in looking after large groups of people on airplanes could do better too I think, judging by a response or two here, but let me also say bravo to the enlightened souls who answered my querys, I hope I travel with you soon:ok:

Parapunter, if you're half as prepared as we describe on this thread, you'll be right :E

And of course if there's anything else that you can think of that you'd like to know about travelling with kids (or things that you've asked for and been refused, and not sure why) just ask!