What is it with Americans?
 

Now this might be a slightly controversial post and for that I apologise, however its something I have been wondering and noticing for a long time.

I have only flown on American carriers twice (Northwest & American). Both times however, the crews were almost exclusively grumpy old women. Seemed to have forgotten how to smile and say hello, virtually threw meals and drinks at you etc etc. The only time my dad (who flew regularly before he retired) has ever written to an airline to complain about a service was when he flew from Atlanta to Manchester on Delta. Speaking to colleagues at work they seem to have had similar experiences.

One reason we were thinking is maybe to get long haul with the American carriers, it works on a seniority system? Ergo the oldest, longest serving staff (who are most likely the most bored of the job, pissed off with conditions etc etc) are the one's thrown on the long haul fleets. Again I apologise if this particular thread offends. I realise it's a sweeping generalisation and there will be plenty of cheery, happy, friendly American long haulers out there. However they seem to be in the minority. Thanks in advance :ok:

Dont the "seniors" have first option to bid for any long haul where they can pick up maximum allowances. It makes you wonder who would be helping who in an emergency, some of the Grey old girls look very frail.

Vampy

My understanding is that seniority rules cabin crew rosters in the US carriers. The senior (=oldest) people are usually on longhaul and cherry pick what are considered the best trips (ATL to MAN in your case).

It is therefore common to see a group of 'like-minded' attendants on the same route together. Furthermore, as I understand it, age cannot be used as a factor to retire someone, so long as they can still pass the mandatory check item(s) of opening the doors. For this reason, the attendants are often quite advanced in years, and if the rumours are true, occasionally into their 70's.

Under the new European legislation due in 2006, it will also be illegal to discrimate on age in the EU, which could see a similar situation develop this side of the pond!

In BA, the crew are rostered rather than seniority bid, so on longhaul you may in the future still see some crew under 50:)

Vampy, I don't think you'll get many dissenters to what is effectively a true picture that you portray.

Ditto

but MAN is a 'best trip'? :ugh:

CS ;)

I was in Sydney once on holidays and saw some United Airlines crew, they were soooooooo old i couldn't believe it!!! If i was a passenger i'd be thinking what's going to happen in an emergency with this lot of old grannies? even if they have passed all of the checks every 6 months or so! but as said, you can't discriminate about age.

Well this is a good point you've raised and one which needs to be addressed sooner rather than later... time (and age) is not on our side.

Recently some ex-Ansett boilers challenged the decision of VB not to hire them and said it was due to their (advanced) age.

They don't understand that people, as you've just shown, do not really want their grandmother's bingo team in charge of the slides, rafts, sashaying, looking good, etc.

And the businessmen think about getting an occasional VPL sighting, maybe evidence of a micro-scopic "G". They definitely DO NOT want evidence of a macroscopic set of bloomers and a girdle... not to mention the falsies falling out and chattering on the floor.

A woman where I fly sits at the front out of harms way and does the crossword the entire sector. She's the purser and looks about 75 or so but is senile so the captains just have her placed out of the way in the galley. Is this good??? Well I admit it IS kinda funny but not giving the businessmen or death-phobic ice-cream lickers what they want.

Unfair and ageist is what I would say

-I agree many USof A carriers FA s are shall we say very experienced but I have had some good trips and ,I admit ,some bad trips across the pond with them. One AA daytime from Kennedy to LHR was expecially good because of the two silver haired 'girls' who looked after J class with style and a smile.

I spent two years in SAS land and any woman under 30 and in uniform on an the assorted length MD80s/DC9s was most likely the FO. However I think they were consistently the best cabin crew I have come across being professional yet polite and friendly and often genuinely welcoming-. Very nice to get an understanding smile and a kind word when collapsing into your seat at the end of a day that started at 0615 and involved racing around some European capital to meetings then ended with a flight back to ARN arriving at 2300 or something.

BA are a mix of age and attitude with some great people in both categories and a good few just a bit too impressed with themselves. Sometimes you get both in one package-going to Singapore once the CSD walked like a catwalk model and spoke like the Queens voice coach. However she did have a friendly chat with many of the J class pax who are BAs bread and butter and was just as happy later on playing with some overly high spirited kids down the back

Qantas -which appears to have virtually all male crews on LH (and very competent they often are) seems to have the opposite proportion on domestic flights many of whom are 40+, friendly and funny as well as professional;-

en route Syd-Cairns

FA would you like a cup of tea
Me having just declined coffee-I am not that fond of tea for a brit.
FA G..arn have cup-its Ozzie Tea it'll be beaut

So please done write off/slag off the older lady FAs as a generality, lots of them are lovelym. They know how to make a decent Bloody Mary and inspire a lot more confidence about the serious side of Cabin Crew duties than some of their younger nominally prettier colleagues

PB

Well, I must say I am well into the darker side of 40 ( a lady never tells ;) !!)

But I can tell you this much, I have taken over from several 20-somethings who have ran away in tears after interactions from some vile, drunken creep pax .... give me five mins no matter how angry, how drunk any passenger is ... guarentee I will have them eating out of my hands.

Youth and good looks might be great (had them once ;) ) but I can also tell you that the experience of 20+ years in the skies makes me confident in any situation ...form placating obnoxious old p*ss-heads to more serious emergencies (have had my share of both!!). :cool:

and can honestly say after all these years, still love the job, and the pax still love me (even if they cant see my g-string )

:E

The Lady who shall be obieyed......and myself have flown on numerous occassions across the pond, we have been constantly staggered by the apparent age, lack of customer service, and general lethargy a large proportion of these crews provide. Just to qualify those comments..wifey works as cabin crew..and she has voiced to me on more than one occasion her concerns.
Take nothing away from these very experienced people..except perhaps...the mean spiritness (and I live in the UK so I know what it looks like when I see it!) the sour "you get what you're dam well given" looks...oh and my personal favourite (cos granny used do it all the time)...the selective hearing!
A mixture of youth/enthusiasm and age/experience is what is required...but dont hold your breath...the US trade unions learnt a lot off the mafia....so its not gonna change anytime soon.


:ok:


H

On the other hand...

One of the best flights I ever took was with TWA from LGW to STL. Myself and a colleague were in their first/business class cabin. The aircraft, a 767, somehow managed to look older than its actual age.

The cabin crew in the front cabin were all old enough to be my granny. I could not help overhearing one (by no means the oldest) discussing with her colleague an operation she was about to undergo for some sort of 'women's problem'. Not an inspiring start.

However, one particular lady, who I'd guess was well into her sixties, seemed to have the attitude "your on my flight and I'm going to do my damndest to ensure you enjoy it!" She really looked after us and was great fun.

Speaking to her, she was indeed a Granny and with the level of seniority she had, could choose to fly a couple of times a month on flights of her choosing.

I've always had a soft spot for the people of TWA - this wasn't the only example I had of sustained great customer service from their staff. The aircraft may have been old and shabby but the people were a bright light.

Delta
 

Just met some CC in BOM.
All of dem looked like mommies to d pilots n watch dis - like grannies to my crew...
Poor pax flyin US carriers...
For once Union protection is doin bad to everybody...
On d other hand, except for d increased poss of a stroke in an emergency, I suppose dey r betta dan d youngsters at d job

As long as its not a blow-j.

well said q-tee
PB

Yeah, q--tee! ...my kinda gal, but I have a falcon's eye for spotting "g-strings" (now called "thongs"). :)

I flew LHR-EWR on a UA 777 and back in mid-'99. Aircraft was great, the cabin crew bordered on the insolent. Then had to contend with the most sullen immigration staff this side of Jeddah. Not a great introduction to the Land Of The Free!

You ever flown into CDG? The immigration "staff" there make you want to immediately turn around and get on the nearest outbound flight to anywhere other than Paris! CDG customs makes ANY place inviting - any place other than CDG!

As an "older" crew member myself, I'm not sure that there's too much wrong with crew being so: A crew made up of youngsters can be a good thing sometimes, but in my experience, rarely. A mix of age, subjective beauty, experience and culture is usually preferable.

While there's good reasons for maintaining older crew, there's no good reason for maintaining crew who lack elementary customer service skills and empathy: The day we stop enjoying the job and start disliking customers is the day we should start looking elsewhere for employment IMHO. I'm often unsure with the more experienced american crews, as to whether they still enjoy the work.

It has often fascinated me that, in a country where (by and large) superior customer service is taken for granted, airlines are apparently exempt. This comment is made with the dubious benefit of experience. Clearly, there are many american crew who are outstanding in many ways, especially on domestic sectors: On longhaul/international, sadly this is less often true.

oncemorealoft agreed - I always had a soft spot for TWA crews too - better than average.

swish266 whatever it is you take on your planet, you need to be careful: It will probably show up in a routine blood test down here on earth! Suggest you check in with the mother ship - you've obviously been too long away!

Dog_ears_up

I concurr with you the fairly atrocious - and that is being kind - you see on many US airlines both in the air and on the ground. It baffles me why a country that provides such excellant customer in almost every area seemed to have missed the airlines - and its been l,ike that for at least the last twenty or so years. i have seen some appalling service - indeed, defies belief - on US airlines. In any other indusrty they would have been fired. I am sorry but the Sep 11 and the downturn in the industry does not cut the mustard with me...sorry.

Mind you, on the other hand, Americans as a rule are exceptionally demanding customers. The sort of behaviour i have witnessed on my numerous trips to the US and the way americans interact with customer service staff is very rarely seen here in Australia.

american pax
 

Sirrrrrr, ex-cuse-me sirrrrr......i need water-rrrrr.....waterrrr for my medication......i have can-cerrrrr......i neeed wat-errrrrr. How long is this delay going to be ? What type of compensation is there for american tourists in your airline ? this is ridiculous.

This seat is hurting my back, do you have any other seats with more room ? Geeeeesh, how long is this flight going to take ?


Q-tee - God love you, you are the type I love to fly with. I recently had a female f/a 55+ years old on a QF flight I took. She is one of the most senior crew in QF. She was loud, funny, efficient and classy ( french roll and everything .) I'd have her serving me anyday. I watched her the whole flight and now copy some of her tricks. If it wasn't for some of the older crew I fly with teaching me how to do the job...I wouldn't be half the fantastic flight attendant I am today.

:O :O :O :O := := := := :cool:

Flyblue:

I am, I am. You don't look nearly old enough to have the seniority required to request specific routes ;)

Backpedalling rapidly!

CS

Okay guys, after reading your posts, I'll clear this up for you. I fly for an American carrier, (Northwest) and I am American. Regarding the senior flight attendants that you refer to, you are generally correct in you observation that they are not the most pleasant. Some of the ladies began with NWA back in the 40's and 50's. Being that our airline has been in service over 70 years, you are bound to get some of this. Our number one on the seniority list turned 80 this month!

You are correct in your conjecture that seniority rules in our system. They can pick and choose their routes as they please. As for the union comments, this has nothing to do with when they choose to leave. Delta is a non-union carrier, and they have just as many elderly FA's as we do. The union does not entitle them to keep their jobs.

The international routes are generally the most senior because they are worth the most amount of hours in a single trip. Ergo, they try to fly schedules that allow them the most days off. You think the FA's that fly Europe are old, fly over to Tokyo. The minimum seniority level is about 30 years of service!

Thanks nwaflygirl - appreciate the clarity.

nwaglygirl
Absolutely ..... remember going to NRT a few years ago and seeing about 12 wheelchairs waiting at the top of the jetty. I thought they were for the passengers, but then the grey wrinklies in NW uniforms came up the jetty and I realised that the wheelchairs were for the cabin crew:D

Apparently the noise of the crochet needles from the galleys keep the first/business class passengers awake at night.

Hey all, in response to your questions-

I'll try to cover it all, If I miss any let me know. First of all the luggage thing. We have to carry all our luggage with us. We are always curious as to what you do with yours? The reason it seems like some have so much is that most people at NWA are commuters. They don't live at base. Say they have a 3 day AMS trip, they leave home (for example Tampa), fly in the night before, get a hotel room, report for the trip the next day, work the trip, and when they return, they have to get another hotel room or go to their crash pad to report for another trip the next day. So, in essence, they have to pack for eight days sometimes. As for stowing all the luggage, most of our European routes are on the A330, and this aircraft has tons of crew luggage space. Even, on the DC-10, there is always ample space. We are also not restricted as to where we stow it. The only thing the company asks of us, is that we please don't use the WBC luggage space. But of course, some still do.

To address the pension issue: The main reason that many don't retire is this: Where else can you work 9 days a month, make that kind of money and still enjoy excellent health care benefits? Once they retire, the pension is minimal, most of these women and men did not plan for retirement, and the only perk they retain is lifetime travel passes. Our pension program was only brought to satisfactory levels (85% increase) with our last contract. Many feel that is is still substandard. I suppose fourty or so years ago when these people started flying, there was no such thing as a 401K (our retirement program), and they failed to plan accordingly. Also, a lot of them are just stubborn.

So, in a sense, they are stuck working, beacuse they can't afford not to. This breeds some of the contempt. And let me tell you, they sure are downright nasty to those of us us that are younger! You think they treat the passengers poorly! They've got it easy! I could go on forever with stories, but I've rambled long enough!

Any further questions, I'll be happy to answer. Fire away! I do an awful lot of AMS and NRT, I'll have to keep my eyes open for you guys! I'm the young, thin, cute blonde that looks really out of place! HaHa Donna

from what i have and seems to stick in my head.. they all wear bright red lipstick with matching red nail polish.. NOIYCE!!!

Thanks for the reply, it's really interesting to see what SOP is for everyone else. Your way certainly seems like it would be much easier-dump the stuff off and forget it!! Again, nice chatting with all of you, talk to ya soon. Donna

From a pax point of view, I find it very sad that American airlines tend to put their oldest FA's on long-haul. Apparently these airlines do not understand that FA's are the faces of the company in the view of most pax. Ask a psychologist: You would learn that people will associate the age and looks of the FA's with the age and safety of the aircraft, and they will also associate the FA's age with the level of modernity of the whole carrrier. This is extremely bad advertising.
I am not saying that I want to see G-strings and nice breast clefts, but being served by grannies does not really make it attractive to choose an American carrier.
I flew FRA-DFW on American last Sunday, and the FA's were at least 50+. Very disturbing, in my mind.

Ummm.. 50+ does not make someone a granny!!! Does mommy know you are out?

I dont really think that age is a problem if they can do the job,

However every longhaul flight I have done with an American carrier (mostly to Japan) has been staffed by large, lazy ladies. Of the elderly persuasion.
Several times one or more of the FAs have been so large that when they are in the aisle there is no way past them. I have oft wondered if this would be a safety hazard.
I have found them to be slow, and tempermental. The whole flight seemed as if they were doing us the favour and we (the customer) were lucky to be there and receive even the bare minumum of service.

The domestic crews seem to be a lot more upbeat, some even seem to enjoy their job!!

if their age becomes a safety concern then they shouldn't be flying. If they can pass their EP's then great, however if they are that senior that they never fly on particular aircraft because of the trips they choose, then that also becomes a safety concern as they're not familiar with the aircraft, looking at it out of a manual isn't good enough.

A lot of crew, not just American crew take their jobs for granted and don't realise how good they have it! Maybe they should try doing a 12 hour shift in a factory and then see how good being a F/A is!

There's something to think about.......................

Oz

ps- it really isn't that hard to smile, infact, its proven that its actually harder to frown!

50 plus F/As; hey, that's hot totty for a 50++ SLF like me !! ;) Nothing like a bit of experience eh :ok:

Glue ball,

In Australia the thong is no-where near as sexy as it is in the US.

See I don't care how old the F/As are.... it comes down to attitude as a pax I've experienced some of the worst service (as per discribed above) and, conversley had some of the best laughs on flights staffed by errr old gorgons/more experienced F/As (delete as appropriate).

:ok:

What I found when I flew to the USA in October with United and was speaking to some of the gals down the back, was that a lot of the people of eldest seniority come from the days when you had to be single to be a hostess, and as soon as you got married you were asked to leave the company.

When these rules were uplifted many came back, but many have lived out the years of hostesses, stewardesses and now flight attendants, and never got married, so flying is pretty much their life. As long as those crew members are capable (and they must be to still be flying) perform all the service & more importantly safety features of being a flight attendant, they can keep on flying.

Another area perhaps is the turmoil over pensions at US airlines. As many airlines try to get around the huge costs of pensions for the US carriers, many flight attendants have the incentive to keep flying & keep earning!

Just my $0.02:ok:

I just think its gas that an airline can keep its crew working well beyond the 65-70 mark when airlines such as BA force their crew to retire at 55!!!!

I don't think its ageist to expect your crew to be able to open the door should the power assist fail in an emergency, nor for them to be able to hold a slide if necessary. 70 year old crew is simply unsafe. This is a case of political correctness gone loopy. By the same rational it simply isn't safe to have crew who are so obese that they can not fit into a crew seat and can barely squeeze down the aisle, let alone bend over to engage a girt bar on a 737...

To be honest I believe that we should address the opposite side of the age and size of F.A.s issue. While I have not ridden the airlines that much I have on occasion been forced to use airlines for transportation, however, I have shared hotels all over the world with airline crews.

I have seen F.A.s so small and petite I can’t imagine how on earth they could possibly open a cabin door, especially if the aircraft is not in it’s normal upright position, let alone remove an emergency exit window and chuck it out the opening. (Those windows are heavy, trust me.) Now I’m saying they cannot perform these task, it is just rather hard to believe that they are capable of such tasks.

On the other hand my sister-in-law was a stewardess (her words, to be almost exact, was “I am not a fecking Flight Attendant, I’m a goddamn stewardess, I started out as a stewardess and I will retire as a goddamn stewardess. Don’t ever call me a fecking Flight Attendant!” Fecking was not the word she used, if you get my drift.) for American Airlines based at DFW. She retired on her 70th birthday. Not only could she handle the doors and emergency exits, but she could probably toss out anybody that was too slow getting out of the airplane. She was number 1 in seniority domestic and I believe 3or 4 international when she retired. So what I am saying is don’t dismiss the very experienced F.A. out of hand just because of their age.

Now on the rudeness issue I can’t really answer that question. It does seem like the rudeness is more prevalent on the Major International Air Carriers compared to Domestic Carriers such as Southwest. However, when one looks at the pay cuts, the loss of retirement and the possibility of losing their jobs that Flight Attendants are facing on some airlines, such as Delta and United, it is not hard to understand the negative attitudes of some of the crews, including the cockpit crew.