A Very British Airline?
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Hand Solo
Quick up date as I do not want to go through everything again. At that time Nairobi airport was not recognised as being secure, and I was shown a list of other international airports world wide when at T5, were duty free would also be confiscated if transiting LHR despite sealed bag.
As for saying thank you to crew on any carrier. I personally make a point of doing this, and indeed have written report and presented to CSD in some circumstances. I believe it is important to say thank you when earned, or even when good practice is observed when dealing with some one else. It promotes good practice, and costs little, and can really makes some ones day if they are having a tough trip.
Regards
Mr Mac
Quick up date as I do not want to go through everything again. At that time Nairobi airport was not recognised as being secure, and I was shown a list of other international airports world wide when at T5, were duty free would also be confiscated if transiting LHR despite sealed bag.
As for saying thank you to crew on any carrier. I personally make a point of doing this, and indeed have written report and presented to CSD in some circumstances. I believe it is important to say thank you when earned, or even when good practice is observed when dealing with some one else. It promotes good practice, and costs little, and can really makes some ones day if they are having a tough trip.
Regards
Mr Mac
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I think this just goes to show how important it is not just to have good customer service and operations, but CONSISTENTLY good customer service and operations. Thats hard to do for a lot of reasons.
Mr Mac sounds like a pretty reasonable guy who travels a lot and often in premium cabins - so is the sort of high yield customer that any airline would want to attract, and more importantly keep.
Whilst there might be reasons why Mr Mac has experienced these bad experiences, the fact remains that from his point of view he has had a bad time and so elects to take his business elsewhere because of this.
Its similar to eating in a restaurant, or buying a car, or shopping in a store - when you have choice as a customer often one poor experience can be enough to make you not give someone a second chance... let alone a third, fourth, fifth.
This is the reality of business - the customer is King. (or Queen
)
Mr Mac sounds like a pretty reasonable guy who travels a lot and often in premium cabins - so is the sort of high yield customer that any airline would want to attract, and more importantly keep.
Whilst there might be reasons why Mr Mac has experienced these bad experiences, the fact remains that from his point of view he has had a bad time and so elects to take his business elsewhere because of this.
Its similar to eating in a restaurant, or buying a car, or shopping in a store - when you have choice as a customer often one poor experience can be enough to make you not give someone a second chance... let alone a third, fourth, fifth.
This is the reality of business - the customer is King. (or Queen
)
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re age of cabin crew - i was 54 when i joined Mixed Fleet, at BA, so age is definitely not an issue. However, remuneration might be, as it is well below the national average for any industry, so first you may like to ensure you can afford to live on the pay. it's not a barrier for all, but i have seen many crew join and then moan or leave because of the pay, although to be fair to BA, the pay is exactly what was/is advertised, so no sympathy really. Fail to plan, plan to fail. Of course, i wish the pay was more, (who wouldn't) and it is better now than it was when MF started in 2010, but no one forced me apply.
re 'customer is king' - i witnessed a customer on the early LHR-MAN go apoplectic because he was not offered a full hot breakfast. Was he right? I have commuted weekly from Cornwall to LHR via National Express for many years. The journey take about seven hours during which i don't find it necessary to eat, drink or use the lavatory and guess what? Ive always arrived fit, healthy and in a good state of mind. Some pax can't seem to go from LHR to HAM with complaining about a lack of food or drink or suddenly decide they absolutely have to use the toilet just as the cabin is being secured for landing.
re the original theme - i am quite old and despair with the choice of words some younger crew use both with each other and pax. Is it really acceptable to describe a meal choice as 'lush', a pax as 'mate' or use the word 'like' liberally in every conversation? Regional accents are of course most welcome, whether Scottish or Essex, but is that an excuse? I live in beautiful Cornwall, so would it be acceptable for me to refer to a pax as 'my 'ansom'?
it may well be and i may be a dinosaur living in a digital world.
re describing regular coke as 'full fat'- it may be relevant to be bear in mind that many of our customers have no or little knowledge of the english language. The word 'Coke' is a global brand and almost universally understood. Tagging on the word 'fat' is both incorrect and misleading, and may cause confusion when serving a non english speaking pax. it is not 'full fat' so why describe it as such.
On a lighter note, i was wincing but had to laugh when the young lady in the BBC programme was trying to speak French in the role play exercise. It reminded me of that policeman in "Allo, 'Allo" comedy on TV "I was p*ssing by", and Peter Sellers Inspector Clouseau "are you trying to make a minky out of me"? Priceless, although quite insulting if you are French, I would imagine.
These are of course only my personal views and i apologise if they do not concur with those of others.
Safe Flying.
re 'customer is king' - i witnessed a customer on the early LHR-MAN go apoplectic because he was not offered a full hot breakfast. Was he right? I have commuted weekly from Cornwall to LHR via National Express for many years. The journey take about seven hours during which i don't find it necessary to eat, drink or use the lavatory and guess what? Ive always arrived fit, healthy and in a good state of mind. Some pax can't seem to go from LHR to HAM with complaining about a lack of food or drink or suddenly decide they absolutely have to use the toilet just as the cabin is being secured for landing.
re the original theme - i am quite old and despair with the choice of words some younger crew use both with each other and pax. Is it really acceptable to describe a meal choice as 'lush', a pax as 'mate' or use the word 'like' liberally in every conversation? Regional accents are of course most welcome, whether Scottish or Essex, but is that an excuse? I live in beautiful Cornwall, so would it be acceptable for me to refer to a pax as 'my 'ansom'?
it may well be and i may be a dinosaur living in a digital world.
re describing regular coke as 'full fat'- it may be relevant to be bear in mind that many of our customers have no or little knowledge of the english language. The word 'Coke' is a global brand and almost universally understood. Tagging on the word 'fat' is both incorrect and misleading, and may cause confusion when serving a non english speaking pax. it is not 'full fat' so why describe it as such.
On a lighter note, i was wincing but had to laugh when the young lady in the BBC programme was trying to speak French in the role play exercise. It reminded me of that policeman in "Allo, 'Allo" comedy on TV "I was p*ssing by", and Peter Sellers Inspector Clouseau "are you trying to make a minky out of me"? Priceless, although quite insulting if you are French, I would imagine.
These are of course only my personal views and i apologise if they do not concur with those of others.
Safe Flying.
Last edited by golden_oldie_surfer; 5th Jul 2014 at 13:16. Reason: additional comments and typos
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LHR to GIG
Hi, looking forward to another flight with BA. On next Friday mid day flight LHR to GIG then a return flight at a later date. My wife usually orders a Gluten Free meal through ba.com. She now also requires Dairy Free. Do you do option for both Gluten and Dairy free or can you request it? The Ba website only let's you select one of above but not both . Only in WTP this time. Any advise appreciated
Well this thread is an education. As a 60 year old I would find no offence with other people's accents nor the casualness of harmless phrases like 'full fat'. All seems a little 'Mrs Bucket' to me. I am usually treated much better in the cabin than in my day to day life! I have just come off a long haul and sat there thinking I couldn't do a cc job as I can't hide my contempt at the behaviour of some. Mind you that would also preclude a job on a Tesco checkout. My msg? Get out more and move on!
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Hands Solo
Not sure what your beef is with EK especially your comment about State backed. Well, if you mean it's owned by the state, you're basically correct. It's owned by the government of Dubai, this being it's major shareholder. The government is to all intent and purpose the Dubai Royal family.
However, Emirates Airlines is not subsidized by the state. Your post implied it is. It's self sufficient and has made a profit every year bar one. Taxes? No, but the Company must provide accommodation to all as well as transport to and from work. Maybe not the same overheads but different and present nonetheless. Whether those profits it makes are indeed on the back of non unionized cheap labour from Third World Countries is another matter and for discussion on another forum.
If we're are talking government aid, Did BA accept the profits from Concorde when it was operational having been given them by the UK government......for free. Stones and glass houses!
Harry
Not sure what your beef is with EK especially your comment about State backed. Well, if you mean it's owned by the state, you're basically correct. It's owned by the government of Dubai, this being it's major shareholder. The government is to all intent and purpose the Dubai Royal family.
However, Emirates Airlines is not subsidized by the state. Your post implied it is. It's self sufficient and has made a profit every year bar one. Taxes? No, but the Company must provide accommodation to all as well as transport to and from work. Maybe not the same overheads but different and present nonetheless. Whether those profits it makes are indeed on the back of non unionized cheap labour from Third World Countries is another matter and for discussion on another forum.
If we're are talking government aid, Did BA accept the profits from Concorde when it was operational having been given them by the UK government......for free. Stones and glass houses!
Harry
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@Harry the Cod - I didn't say Emirates was subsidized by the state. At least not directly. However it is patently obvious what benefits Emirates derives by being considered a strategically important industry to the Emirate of Dubai.
FWIW BA didn't accept any profits from Concorde when it was given the airframes by the state as there were no profits: Concorde was run at a loss by the nationalised airline. When BA was privatised all it's assets were sold by the state to the shareholders. Only the privatised BA made Concorde profitable. What alternative options for the disposal of Concorde aircraft do you think the state had given the huge technical support infrastructure and inventory required to operate seven bespoke airframes? Concorde was only ever a blip in BA's profitability.
FWIW BA didn't accept any profits from Concorde when it was given the airframes by the state as there were no profits: Concorde was run at a loss by the nationalised airline. When BA was privatised all it's assets were sold by the state to the shareholders. Only the privatised BA made Concorde profitable. What alternative options for the disposal of Concorde aircraft do you think the state had given the huge technical support infrastructure and inventory required to operate seven bespoke airframes? Concorde was only ever a blip in BA's profitability.
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kirungi1
And you point is......?
Not sure what the waggling finger is for as there's nothing in my post that's unrelated to what's on Wiki. Without wishing to sound condescending, be careful with information garnered via the internet. Anyone can submit 'facts' on the electronic super highway without any validation whatsoever. Wiki is notorious for inaccuracy.
Finding out that your yearly salary as new BA cabin crew is almost as much as one return First class fare to LA hardly speaks volumes for the remuneration from you're own Company. Our 'low paid' cabin crew take home around 25% more per month than a BA starter after tax......and they have free accommodation and transport. I wonder what low cost model BA must be using!
Mr Solo
Let's not even go there regarding previous BA advantages. British Eagle, B.Cal, LAKER, all steamrolled by the mighty BA, Virgin dirty tricks, buying Dan Air for a pound then firing pilots out of seniority. I'm sure there's more. I'd also disagree with your comment that concorde was the only profitability blip in BA! Maybe you should have a quick look back at some yearly reports.
Aside from all that, as a brit myself I'm glad that the Company is doing well. It creates many indirect jobs and is still, regardless of what Branson claims, the national flag carrier. For the sake of its many employees and for the UK in general, having the airline get back to where it was 20 years ago is heartening.
I wish you well even though you're competition!
Harry
And you point is......?
Not sure what the waggling finger is for as there's nothing in my post that's unrelated to what's on Wiki. Without wishing to sound condescending, be careful with information garnered via the internet. Anyone can submit 'facts' on the electronic super highway without any validation whatsoever. Wiki is notorious for inaccuracy.
Finding out that your yearly salary as new BA cabin crew is almost as much as one return First class fare to LA hardly speaks volumes for the remuneration from you're own Company. Our 'low paid' cabin crew take home around 25% more per month than a BA starter after tax......and they have free accommodation and transport. I wonder what low cost model BA must be using!
Mr Solo
Let's not even go there regarding previous BA advantages. British Eagle, B.Cal, LAKER, all steamrolled by the mighty BA, Virgin dirty tricks, buying Dan Air for a pound then firing pilots out of seniority. I'm sure there's more. I'd also disagree with your comment that concorde was the only profitability blip in BA! Maybe you should have a quick look back at some yearly reports.
Aside from all that, as a brit myself I'm glad that the Company is doing well. It creates many indirect jobs and is still, regardless of what Branson claims, the national flag carrier. For the sake of its many employees and for the UK in general, having the airline get back to where it was 20 years ago is heartening.
I wish you well even though you're competition!
Harry
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I'm with you about WIKI and to a certain extent your rates for cabin crew. However, Cost of living in Dubai is terribly high!
Morale for flight deck crew at EK is perhaps at an all time low and look at turn over for cabin crew even with your claimed high pay and top-up incentives. Has this brought you satisfaction? then why is this anyway turnover?
I will reiterate the point made in that final episode of "A very British Airline" about the sense of belonging employees feel at BA. Leadership takes it's place at BA and I'm talking about good leadership. Employees will always look for something much less that take-home-pay or/and a combination of things for their satisfaction (loyalty). You will hardly find a thing such as locals pitching against expatriates at BA. It's not how much you give but how you give it and that's quality.
Morale for flight deck crew at EK is perhaps at an all time low and look at turn over for cabin crew even with your claimed high pay and top-up incentives. Has this brought you satisfaction? then why is this anyway turnover?
I will reiterate the point made in that final episode of "A very British Airline" about the sense of belonging employees feel at BA. Leadership takes it's place at BA and I'm talking about good leadership. Employees will always look for something much less that take-home-pay or/and a combination of things for their satisfaction (loyalty). You will hardly find a thing such as locals pitching against expatriates at BA. It's not how much you give but how you give it and that's quality.
Last edited by kirungi1; 13th Jul 2014 at 20:22.
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Morale at an all time low? Not by a long way. 5 years ago maybe, but apart from the usual suspects posting on the ME forum, the majority of pilots are content generally.
The cabin crew are somewhat different. The turnover is high for several reasons. Firstly, it's an expat job. Very few will join with a 15-20 year career in mind, unlike those at BA or anyone working in their home country. It will always be to many an opportunity to see the World for 3-6 years then return home and settle down. This is especially so for those from Western countries. Those from Asia/Africa tend to stay longer for the simple reason that their job is very well paid compared to what they could achieve at home and their salary often supports their immediate and sometimes extended family. Many are degree qualified and are doctors, lawyers but can still earn more here than their native country.
The second reason is their working conditions. There is no union here and never will be. Because of that, senior managers can and do treat crew with what I'd call less than basic respect at times. I've witnessed it myself directly, not always and not from all managers but some nonetheless. There is not always the support for crew either when it comes to passenger complaints. Unfortunately, a certain nationality who we carry a lot of know this and complain about the slightest thing. Please don't wobble your head as you agree! 120 hour months with 8-9 days off may not be uncommon at times with crew promotions after 6 month trials operating in a higher position without full pay.
So yes, these are the reasons why BA and other legacy carriers need to move away from costly contracts and change terms and conditions if they wish to survive.
Finally, as for Dubai being expensive, it's mainly housing that makes it so. Fuel is 1/5 the price of the UK, taxi's are cheap and lots of deals at hotels offering crew discounts. Female crew can quite easily go out throughout the week and not pay a dime with many hotel bars offering free drinks on certain nights.
There isn't the long term loyalty here that you may find in BA I agree, particularly amongst those with a shorter career viewpoint. However, this actually suits EK's image to recruit young, attractive and enthusiastic crew rather than having some grumpy and miserable 50-55 year old waddling up the narrow isles in her size 18 skirt!
Now that's quality!
Harry
The cabin crew are somewhat different. The turnover is high for several reasons. Firstly, it's an expat job. Very few will join with a 15-20 year career in mind, unlike those at BA or anyone working in their home country. It will always be to many an opportunity to see the World for 3-6 years then return home and settle down. This is especially so for those from Western countries. Those from Asia/Africa tend to stay longer for the simple reason that their job is very well paid compared to what they could achieve at home and their salary often supports their immediate and sometimes extended family. Many are degree qualified and are doctors, lawyers but can still earn more here than their native country.
The second reason is their working conditions. There is no union here and never will be. Because of that, senior managers can and do treat crew with what I'd call less than basic respect at times. I've witnessed it myself directly, not always and not from all managers but some nonetheless. There is not always the support for crew either when it comes to passenger complaints. Unfortunately, a certain nationality who we carry a lot of know this and complain about the slightest thing. Please don't wobble your head as you agree! 120 hour months with 8-9 days off may not be uncommon at times with crew promotions after 6 month trials operating in a higher position without full pay.
So yes, these are the reasons why BA and other legacy carriers need to move away from costly contracts and change terms and conditions if they wish to survive.
Finally, as for Dubai being expensive, it's mainly housing that makes it so. Fuel is 1/5 the price of the UK, taxi's are cheap and lots of deals at hotels offering crew discounts. Female crew can quite easily go out throughout the week and not pay a dime with many hotel bars offering free drinks on certain nights.
There isn't the long term loyalty here that you may find in BA I agree, particularly amongst those with a shorter career viewpoint. However, this actually suits EK's image to recruit young, attractive and enthusiastic crew rather than having some grumpy and miserable 50-55 year old waddling up the narrow isles in her size 18 skirt!
Now that's quality!
Harry
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However, this actually suits EK's image to recruit young, attractive and enthusiastic crew rather than having some grumpy and miserable 50-55 year old waddling up the narrow isles in her size 18 skirt!
BA loves old age, in actual fact, call it "good age" for a number of reasons other than old being golden. Besides discrimination, why wouldn't I select a candidate for a role who has a beaming passion and desire to contribute to the success of the company just because they are of a certain age? Should I offer a contract to a model who is looking to buy time till that modelling contract arrives and they are off?
I think those "young, attractive and enthusiastic crew" bring form but not class but if you are looking for something that stands the test of time especially with modern age variables of competition then you don't have to build castles on the sand.
For generations that "grumpy and miserable 50-55 year old waddling up the narrow isles in her size 18 skirt!" crew has consistently met customer expectations especially on safety. Wouldn't that be quality?
Last edited by kirungi1; 13th Jul 2014 at 22:30.
Harry I finished with BA when I was 52, but I wasn't grumpy I didn't waddle or twerk as it's called now and I certainly didn't wear a size 18 skirt, but had a humble 34 waiste.
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I don't condone the policy, just stating what the Company appears to desire. As I've mentioned already, the Company doesn't encourage long term loyalty amongst cabin crew.
As for safety, I'm pleased to say that neither airline, touch wood, have had to put that training to the ultimate test, apart from the good job the BA crew did on the B777 at LHR. But why assume that you can't be attractive and safe? Is safety the preserve of the old and ugly?
Crewmeal
Good for you. My post is part in jest as I'm sure you're aware. I'm using the extremes that I've experienced. UK employment regulations would prevent an employer from giving warnings over weight issues. Here in the ME, if you're fat...you're fired! Well, eventually maybe! The US carriers are by far the worst. A size 18 might be considered anorexic.........
Harry
As for safety, I'm pleased to say that neither airline, touch wood, have had to put that training to the ultimate test, apart from the good job the BA crew did on the B777 at LHR. But why assume that you can't be attractive and safe? Is safety the preserve of the old and ugly?
Crewmeal
Good for you. My post is part in jest as I'm sure you're aware. I'm using the extremes that I've experienced. UK employment regulations would prevent an employer from giving warnings over weight issues. Here in the ME, if you're fat...you're fired! Well, eventually maybe! The US carriers are by far the worst. A size 18 might be considered anorexic.........
Harry
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But why assume that you can't be attractive and safe? Is safety the preserve of the old and ugly?
I presume experience comes with age - Imagine how naive you were on the controls 15 or so years ago? It transfers to the back of the cabin as well. They become better with time. Cabin crew of good age eventually become intuitive, that principle of foresight (predicting) - because they've witnesses scenarios over and over again and it's this aspect that BA looks for in it's cabin crew besides others.
I'm sorry but I think we have to disagree on this!
Last edited by kirungi1; 14th Jul 2014 at 06:44. Reason: spelling
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15 years ago.....niave? I certainly hope not, I was a few years into my command by then! That should give you some indication to my age too! If you look at my post, the wink usually indicates something in jest perhaps.....
I'm well aware that you can still be very attractive when you're older. I'm a prime example of that!
Harry
I'm well aware that you can still be very attractive when you're older. I'm a prime example of that!
Harry
Bear Behind
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re 'customer is king' - i witnessed a customer on the early LHR-MAN go apoplectic because he was not offered a full hot breakfast. Was he right? I have commuted weekly from Cornwall to LHR via National Express for many years. The journey take about seven hours during which i don't find it necessary to eat, drink or use the lavatory and guess what? Ive always arrived fit, healthy and in a good state of mind. Some pax can't seem to go from LHR to HAM with complaining about a lack of food or drink
May I offer a reply? As SLF, often travelling on business, I maybe able to give a little perspective - though going 'apoplectic' helps nobody. Very often I have to take a flight up first thing in a morning and fly back at night - so a day trip business meeting in another corner of Europe. Very often I won't have time for lunch, so I rely on BA to provide me with a decent breakfast to keep me going til I get back to the airport and have something in the lounge before my return. Some pax do rely on the breakfast to keep them going for the entire day. Just over a week ago I took a BA flight up to LHR from southern Europe - ironically for a meeting in Waterside - departing at silly-o'clock. For whatever reason, the catering had not been chilled and had spoiled - no food could be served. There was nothing. Not a thing. Not a biscuit or a bag of nuts. I had to keep going on a cup of tea and glass of water until about 5pm.
So there's the context of why some pax do get a bit upset at what you may see, on the surface, as somthing trivial.
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A very British TV programme
Remember, this was made for TV. Drama, bluff, tears, bullies, idiots, whatever. A TV show apparently needs these things to entertain its audience. If they do not get "entertainment", they will take things out of context or ask leading questions off screen so they can shoot the answer they want on screen. I have personal experience of how things can be made to look quite different in the finished show.