Seniority is it time to get rid of it?
Join Date: Apr 2012
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I believe crm is negatively impacted by seniority, as it creates a two tier structure of cabin crew. The haves and the have nots. It's bad for morale and communication, as well as fatigue levels in junior crew.
I and lots of others like me just want a fairer system, where no one has good rosters for years on end at the expense of other crew s bad rosters for years on end. We are all people here, not just seniors and juniors. Lets focus on shared humanity and fix this problem.
Someone said juniors complaining about the unfair work environment should be quiet and get a life, and said the person complaining is insane.
A fairer rostering system will help me to achieve having a life, and it might stop some crew from going stark raving made due to extreme jet lag , unfair work stress etc.
Jet sonic saying he is worried about the working conditions for his new hire company, he should be worried. Hire really thick skinned people, who can handle being bullied. Maybe ex SAS, military, police types would be best.
. Plus it would be good for the moral of junior crew to have cute men to ogle at work. 
I and lots of others like me just want a fairer system, where no one has good rosters for years on end at the expense of other crew s bad rosters for years on end. We are all people here, not just seniors and juniors. Lets focus on shared humanity and fix this problem.
Someone said juniors complaining about the unfair work environment should be quiet and get a life, and said the person complaining is insane.
A fairer rostering system will help me to achieve having a life, and it might stop some crew from going stark raving made due to extreme jet lag , unfair work stress etc.
Jet sonic saying he is worried about the working conditions for his new hire company, he should be worried. Hire really thick skinned people, who can handle being bullied. Maybe ex SAS, military, police types would be best.
. Plus it would be good for the moral of junior crew to have cute men to ogle at work.
Last edited by catonahottinroof; 9th May 2012 at 00:40.
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And asking for research proving a relationship between muscle injury/ skeletal injury and fatigue?
There is tons of it. Start at the "International Journal of Fatigue", try reading their article titled "The nature of fatigue damage in bone" by Clive, O'Brien and Taylor.
There is lots of research. If you are unable to access university data base systems for the latest and most up to date journal information try using google scholar, even your newspaper will have information. Enjoy the reading, and best get a cup of tea or a cold beer to sip while you read, as you will be there for quite a while. Even the workcover Victoria website has info on fatigue and muscle injury - muscular skeletal or however its meant to be spelt!
There is tons of it. Start at the "International Journal of Fatigue", try reading their article titled "The nature of fatigue damage in bone" by Clive, O'Brien and Taylor.
There is lots of research. If you are unable to access university data base systems for the latest and most up to date journal information try using google scholar, even your newspaper will have information. Enjoy the reading, and best get a cup of tea or a cold beer to sip while you read, as you will be there for quite a while. Even the workcover Victoria website has info on fatigue and muscle injury - muscular skeletal or however its meant to be spelt!
Paxing All Over The World
Speaking from a perspective of 33 years in a very wide range of companies and organisations - but always in a service industry - I can say that seniority does not exist in this way. I realise, of course, that the nature of a crew with periods working away and multiple destinations and schedules is unique - but the system sounds poor.
Someone described a duel seniority with static and rolling so that all get a fair crack at the best parts of the job - that sounds good.
My guess is that a company that maintains a 1960s/70s system in the 21st century is storing up big trouble. Whilst it may be recession now, at some point it will end. If staff leave because there is no prospect of a better work and life cycle, that will affect the companies bottom line.
A friend of mine works in a UK private hospital and the pay/hours are worse than in the NHS. She has seen a stream of colleagues leave and constantly has to help the new recruits - knowing that they will soon realise what things are like and will leave. Her domestic situation prevents her from leaving.
Airlines (and any company) that ignore this kind of low grumble - will find that one day it bursts out with a roar.
Someone described a duel seniority with static and rolling so that all get a fair crack at the best parts of the job - that sounds good.
My guess is that a company that maintains a 1960s/70s system in the 21st century is storing up big trouble. Whilst it may be recession now, at some point it will end. If staff leave because there is no prospect of a better work and life cycle, that will affect the companies bottom line.
A friend of mine works in a UK private hospital and the pay/hours are worse than in the NHS. She has seen a stream of colleagues leave and constantly has to help the new recruits - knowing that they will soon realise what things are like and will leave. Her domestic situation prevents her from leaving.
Airlines (and any company) that ignore this kind of low grumble - will find that one day it bursts out with a roar.
Join Date: May 2012
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6chimes
I think you have missed the point of my post.The seniority that im referring to is the disparity of treatment given depending on which labour contract you are amongst equal colleagues. I was not referring to, in anyway, the chain of command, as obviously a tier of positions are required and that authority would run top down from the flight deck crew-- that is critical to airline operation. I am referring to discrimination and team issues that arise from having different labour contracts for the same level position on board the aircraft and the division it creates. And no matter how thick skinned and robotic management might want or expect us to be, these issues will effect communication and team work.....which is core to a cabin crews role. This situation im talking about is apparently quite bad, and perhaps unique to a few airlines in australia that have only in recent years brought in outsourced casual flight attendants. I think Catonahottinroof knows exactly what im talking about.
I think you have missed the point of my post.The seniority that im referring to is the disparity of treatment given depending on which labour contract you are amongst equal colleagues. I was not referring to, in anyway, the chain of command, as obviously a tier of positions are required and that authority would run top down from the flight deck crew-- that is critical to airline operation. I am referring to discrimination and team issues that arise from having different labour contracts for the same level position on board the aircraft and the division it creates. And no matter how thick skinned and robotic management might want or expect us to be, these issues will effect communication and team work.....which is core to a cabin crews role. This situation im talking about is apparently quite bad, and perhaps unique to a few airlines in australia that have only in recent years brought in outsourced casual flight attendants. I think Catonahottinroof knows exactly what im talking about.
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I take your point and I have no idea what it's like in Australia. My point though was simply this; If you don't like a working practice using CRM as a leverage tool is wrong. Someone who quotes failing CRM has surely the responsibility to make sure it doesn't break down. It's not good enough to blame something else and then fail yourself.
Any issues that may divide the cabin crew team should be left at the door.
In any accident investigation where the activities of the crew were brought into question, I think you'd feel pretty weak if you blamed the failure of the team on seniority or any other in-house practice. It may well be that the company would be seen in a very dim light for allowing a practice to continue if it was documented as affecting team work. Sometimes you need to step back and look it it from a safety perspective that would be viewed from the outside and not from your own colleagues culture.
You need to be bigger than the system if you are to change it.
6
Any issues that may divide the cabin crew team should be left at the door.
In any accident investigation where the activities of the crew were brought into question, I think you'd feel pretty weak if you blamed the failure of the team on seniority or any other in-house practice. It may well be that the company would be seen in a very dim light for allowing a practice to continue if it was documented as affecting team work. Sometimes you need to step back and look it it from a safety perspective that would be viewed from the outside and not from your own colleagues culture.
You need to be bigger than the system if you are to change it.
6
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SonicJetBoy
I work for the labor hire company. Its alright for the most part. If your not aware, theres 3 groups in short Haul: QAL, QD, MAM. The base that Im in is mostly young and dynamic. It all depends who you work with. I have experienced 'seniors' (QAL and some QDs) treat me different because Im not 'senior' annd just a 'casual' and so have many of the people that I know-so my warning to you is that it will happen. Im pretty thick skinned and if someone gives me crap then I give it right back to them or as soon as they start talking crap about my work group Ill snap right back at them. My advice is to not let anyone talk down to you because your 'casual'. Youll prob be better at your job then they are! Depending on where your based will depend on the type of relationship you will have the QD staff. I say that because: In the base Im in theres a problem with rosters!! There are a handful of QD crew that arent so nice to MAM crew all based on rosters/trips-which is pretty petty. Oh and they and some of the QAL are under a false impression that we are paid more than them. Were not in the long run-What they all forget is that we arent paid ANY bandpayments-we get the same rate regardless of day or time. We dont get any paid sick/personal leave or Annual leave etc. Most people in short haul are really nice and friendly. From what the ex long haul crew have told me its a different type of culture in short haul-(so a few of the things that LHlisa talks about arent really seen that often in short haul).
Sure 80 odd% may have voted for seniority. But thats 80 odd% of FAAA members NOT Cabin Crew. The FAAA is tailored towards Full Time QAL staff with seniority hence why they have more members that are QAL seniority and as a result where %% came from. (Im a member and needed help/advive with something and nobody new the answer, if I was a QAL they would have) Im sure if ALL crew were surveyed it would be much lower.
cart_elevator
Come on seriously, evidence and some of your comments? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and shouldnt be rediculed by you!
I wonder how long it will be until someone files a lawsuit against for discrimination/bullying in the workplace
I work for the labor hire company. Its alright for the most part. If your not aware, theres 3 groups in short Haul: QAL, QD, MAM. The base that Im in is mostly young and dynamic. It all depends who you work with. I have experienced 'seniors' (QAL and some QDs) treat me different because Im not 'senior' annd just a 'casual' and so have many of the people that I know-so my warning to you is that it will happen. Im pretty thick skinned and if someone gives me crap then I give it right back to them or as soon as they start talking crap about my work group Ill snap right back at them. My advice is to not let anyone talk down to you because your 'casual'. Youll prob be better at your job then they are! Depending on where your based will depend on the type of relationship you will have the QD staff. I say that because: In the base Im in theres a problem with rosters!! There are a handful of QD crew that arent so nice to MAM crew all based on rosters/trips-which is pretty petty. Oh and they and some of the QAL are under a false impression that we are paid more than them. Were not in the long run-What they all forget is that we arent paid ANY bandpayments-we get the same rate regardless of day or time. We dont get any paid sick/personal leave or Annual leave etc. Most people in short haul are really nice and friendly. From what the ex long haul crew have told me its a different type of culture in short haul-(so a few of the things that LHlisa talks about arent really seen that often in short haul).
Sure 80 odd% may have voted for seniority. But thats 80 odd% of FAAA members NOT Cabin Crew. The FAAA is tailored towards Full Time QAL staff with seniority hence why they have more members that are QAL seniority and as a result where %% came from. (Im a member and needed help/advive with something and nobody new the answer, if I was a QAL they would have) Im sure if ALL crew were surveyed it would be much lower.
cart_elevator
Come on seriously, evidence and some of your comments? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and shouldnt be rediculed by you!
I wonder how long it will be until someone files a lawsuit against for discrimination/bullying in the workplace
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SonicJetBoy
I've never personally been treated badly by crew on different contracts because I'm a casual. We all do the same job in the end and I believe most people acknowledge this.
I've never personally been treated badly by crew on different contracts because I'm a casual. We all do the same job in the end and I believe most people acknowledge this.
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I am a 'senior' CSM in the same base as Danfromaus. I bend over backwards to make our casuals feel welcome and make them feel a valued part of my crew (as I do to all my F/As, doesnt matter to me whether they are QAL,QD or MAM. We certainly dont check into hotels or choose crew meals on seniority....first in, best dressed!! I usually let my forward galley operator choose his/her meal first and then offer what is left to the rest of the crew.
I know there is a bit of grizzling amongst the QD crew who sometimes see the casuals getting good trips....but it is all the luck of the draw. Even the QDs on reserve have picked up some great trips off reserve with the current shortage of crew in the Perth base.
I have also flown longhaul ex MEL as a F/A for a short time....and not once did I see us lining up to check in to hotels, choose meals or rest breaks on seniority. I was on the a/c type that did have seniority. The NZ crew were treated exactly the same as us......as a long serving CSM (on secondment as F/A), I would have been horrified if I saw this and would have spoken up.
Maybe LHLisa flys out of SYD where it is a whole different ballgame? As a previous contributor mentioned....maybe time to go to A380 with no seniority?
Yes, the job has changed over the years....but IT IS STILL a great lifestyle!!
I know there is a bit of grizzling amongst the QD crew who sometimes see the casuals getting good trips....but it is all the luck of the draw. Even the QDs on reserve have picked up some great trips off reserve with the current shortage of crew in the Perth base.
I have also flown longhaul ex MEL as a F/A for a short time....and not once did I see us lining up to check in to hotels, choose meals or rest breaks on seniority. I was on the a/c type that did have seniority. The NZ crew were treated exactly the same as us......as a long serving CSM (on secondment as F/A), I would have been horrified if I saw this and would have spoken up.
Maybe LHLisa flys out of SYD where it is a whole different ballgame? As a previous contributor mentioned....maybe time to go to A380 with no seniority?
Yes, the job has changed over the years....but IT IS STILL a great lifestyle!!
