BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
I have seen these settlements so many times before and all the words of hope and new dawn have always been dashed by the sheer eogtistical bloody mindeness of BASSA and its followers.
I wish you were 100% right but I think time will show us.
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you seem to talk as though people want to meet up for dinner with you??? I can guarantee the "minority militants" will be enjoying their room service on there own while everyone else gets on with life. What What indeed
It's always been, and always will be, a personal choice made by myself.
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Welcome back Miss M. Now to all of you let's Move on please from the delights of Delsey dining. So Miss M, am very interested to hear your views of the deal, and if you think its acceptable, what has suddenly changed in your view ( Im talking agreements not personalities) This is a serious question as you more than most have come on here in the past berating any deal that BA has come up with. Thanks
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Tight slot
Have I missed something?
Isn't this dispute now over?
Do you still want to argue with each other?
Isn't this dispute now over?
Do you still want to argue with each other?
Personally, I am hopeful and glad
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Have I missed something?
Isn't this dispute now over?
Do you still want to argue with each other?
Isn't this dispute now over?
Do you still want to argue with each other?
BA at LHR is still the most dysfunctional, bitter, divided, odorous, and unhappy place I have ever had to work from. It is filled with hatred and jealousy. Bitterness and anger. Words cannot explain just how dysfunctional it all is. However these BA CC Industrial Relations threads have demonstrated perfectly to one and all just how dysfunctional it is.
The damage done will live on for generations. Bitter simple minds will carry all of this forward for years to come. Pilots and CC equally. And sadly both camps are equally guilty. Yet both spend acres and acres of time and energy blaming the other.
I have seen pilots glazed over with anger at the CC, and I have seen CC seething with bitterness. The two sides are doomed never to reconcile.
BA managers do not care. And will not care until an accident happens. (al la Kegworth). BA unions do not care as they have an agenda to divide demonise and to feather there own nests. All will continue on it's unhappy way until, god forbid, people die.
Yet in all of this, intelligent people on all sides exist. Those who meet as they find. Who do not label as "all pilots are bastards" or all CC are "feckless wasters." These people make the work worthwhile.
This has all existed for generations in BA. Old bitter pilots and Passed over Pursers. Bitter, alone, and unhappy.
Forever angry at each other, and all trapped in a small aluminium tube.
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I think you are over stating the resentment IMO L337. There will always be people with an axe to grind but truly the vast majority of people I work with are looking for positive people and work with them and not against them when they meet them.
I start from scratch every trip. positive, open and ready to work with all parties. I honestly think that by taking this approach it gives other like minded people the hint that 'its ok to be nice to each other'. The others (wherever they are) keep their heads down for that trip.
I don't think I am 'slow' but really I have seen hardly any venting of spleens. If its happening then its happening in private and thats ok we all have our right to free speech.
My ethos will stay the same...'keep it nice' unless needed.
Life is just too short to harbour resentments and negative energy.
I start from scratch every trip. positive, open and ready to work with all parties. I honestly think that by taking this approach it gives other like minded people the hint that 'its ok to be nice to each other'. The others (wherever they are) keep their heads down for that trip.
I don't think I am 'slow' but really I have seen hardly any venting of spleens. If its happening then its happening in private and thats ok we all have our right to free speech.
My ethos will stay the same...'keep it nice' unless needed.
Life is just too short to harbour resentments and negative energy.
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Dingbat - Calm down dear, calm down! I'm not divulging any secrets, the speculative naming of Bill Francis on forums crew visit as 'treacle' is public knowledge. Public knowledge. I doubt Bill cares very much after the vitriol he's taken on the chin over the last 18 months. All I've done is state that crew shouldn't get their hopes up that their bogeyman is in line for a sideways move. We all saw the fervent belief that Willie had lost the confidence of the board and was about to be sacked. What happened there? Don't take it so seriously!
L337 - I'm a great cynic but I don't really recognise the BA you describe. The problems aren't that bad. Petty power squabbles exist in every workplace. Perhaps see my earlier post about angry minorities.
L337 - I'm a great cynic but I don't really recognise the BA you describe. The problems aren't that bad. Petty power squabbles exist in every workplace. Perhaps see my earlier post about angry minorities.
Controversial, moi?
L337 is more right than wrong. I joined in early 1989 and was actually shocked at the unpleasantness and animosity from cabin crew towards pilots. L337 also mentions the change regarding food and pay, the detail is difficult for others to understand, but I still hear the (incorrect) comment that 'you aren't entitled to first class food because you sold that right' from cabin crew who weren't even out of nappies when the agreement changed!
How about the training school telling new entrants that on the flight deck the 'Water extinguisher is behind the w anker and the BCF behind the bastard'?
I long ago gave up worrying about it. I treat others as I find them but the occasions when a group of cabin crew will include the flight crew in dinner arrangements or a day trip are rare although much less so when flying with LGW crew or those recently joined.
BA is dysfunctional caused over many years by weak management (until WW), dinosaur unions led by militant and destructive idiots e.g. BASSA, empire builders e.g. former pilot hating board member and head of cabin services, a cabin crew training school with undue influence from bitter pilot hating trainers, etc., etc.
It is slowly changing and at the end of the day I enjoy the job, lifestyle and income and I am not bitter but a delirously happy and harmonious place to work it ain't!
How about the training school telling new entrants that on the flight deck the 'Water extinguisher is behind the w anker and the BCF behind the bastard'?
I long ago gave up worrying about it. I treat others as I find them but the occasions when a group of cabin crew will include the flight crew in dinner arrangements or a day trip are rare although much less so when flying with LGW crew or those recently joined.
BA is dysfunctional caused over many years by weak management (until WW), dinosaur unions led by militant and destructive idiots e.g. BASSA, empire builders e.g. former pilot hating board member and head of cabin services, a cabin crew training school with undue influence from bitter pilot hating trainers, etc., etc.
It is slowly changing and at the end of the day I enjoy the job, lifestyle and income and I am not bitter but a delirously happy and harmonious place to work it ain't!
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Welcome back Miss M. Now to all of you let's Move on please from the delights of Delsey dining. So Miss M, am very interested to hear your views of the deal, and if you think its acceptable, what has suddenly changed in your view ( Im talking agreements not personalities) This is a serious question as you more than most have come on here in the past berating any deal that BA has come up with. Thanks
Like many others have said, we could have achieved a far better deal if everyone who voted for industrial action hadn't crossed the picket line and if VCC had minded their own business instead of interfearing in our dispute.
Still, a ballot is to be held and nobody can say if the deal will be accepted or not.
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M.Mouse,
I don't recognise what you say and I have not heard any trainers being anti pilot. Surely we all use the same trainers when doing our SEP.
I have just been through my SEP and the pilots and cabin crew all did a session together and we all got on fine, trainers, cabin crew and pilots; in fact it was quite good fun!
I don't see what some of you see, and it makes me wonder, if it is some of you that have the problem! Sometimes people can prejudge others and preconceptions can cloud ones judgement.
It really is sad that so many of you seem to revel in all this and it is almost as though you are disappointed that there has been a settlement and some of you actually seem to want it to fail and that seems to be from both sides of the debate. I expected it from a few BASSA mentalists, although I have noticed some very good posts comming from many BASSA supporters; but from those of you that consider you have been on the winning side, I find it very strange.
I don't recognise what you say and I have not heard any trainers being anti pilot. Surely we all use the same trainers when doing our SEP.
I have just been through my SEP and the pilots and cabin crew all did a session together and we all got on fine, trainers, cabin crew and pilots; in fact it was quite good fun!
I don't see what some of you see, and it makes me wonder, if it is some of you that have the problem! Sometimes people can prejudge others and preconceptions can cloud ones judgement.
It really is sad that so many of you seem to revel in all this and it is almost as though you are disappointed that there has been a settlement and some of you actually seem to want it to fail and that seems to be from both sides of the debate. I expected it from a few BASSA mentalists, although I have noticed some very good posts comming from many BASSA supporters; but from those of you that consider you have been on the winning side, I find it very strange.
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Ah ha, MissM, but you must remember that the VCCs inter'feared' because they took an independent, individua and, uncoerced decision to support the company through a period of IA. IA brought about by a 'scheme' of people whose course of action even the judiciary found to be unreasonable.
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Miss M:
Perhaps the majority of crew that crossed the picket line did so because they were thinking for themselves and not waiting to be directed by BASSA. Maybe some of us who had seen this many times before knew only too well how this would pan out as when it comes to BASSA history has a habit of repeating itself.
My point being nicely proved by the fact that you have just stated that you have managed to secure permanent, contractual changed to the offer, which you believe because BASSA have instructed you that this is the case? Below is a paragraph lifted from the IFCE intranet page under the news heading 'Letter to LHR crew - Individual offer'
If you are not a member of Unite, we can make the offer to you personally. By signing and returning the form in this letter, you can accept:
Two years of contractual pay rises worth up to 5.9% from February 2011
A permanent, contractual, variable pay top up scheme, for Heathrow crew on Worldwide and Eurofleet Protection for your terms and conditions, now and in the future
All you need to do is confirm that you were not a member of Unite on December 14, 2010 and send the signed form back to us by January 31, 2011 in the envelope provided.
If you choose to accept the offer, you are not changing any other term or condition of your employment contract. You’d also enjoy the benefit of any deals that may be done in the future through the normal collective bargaining arrangement we have with Unite.
Don't get me wrong, I am delighted that people are finally seeing this offer as a way forward, but sadly it's taken a huge turnaround on BASSA's part to get the rest of you to see this. The only losers in all of this are the cabin crew as a whole as we have ALL ended up signing an offer far inferior to anything that was offered pre-strike!
Perhaps the majority of crew that crossed the picket line did so because they were thinking for themselves and not waiting to be directed by BASSA. Maybe some of us who had seen this many times before knew only too well how this would pan out as when it comes to BASSA history has a habit of repeating itself.
My point being nicely proved by the fact that you have just stated that you have managed to secure permanent, contractual changed to the offer, which you believe because BASSA have instructed you that this is the case? Below is a paragraph lifted from the IFCE intranet page under the news heading 'Letter to LHR crew - Individual offer'
If you are not a member of Unite, we can make the offer to you personally. By signing and returning the form in this letter, you can accept:
Two years of contractual pay rises worth up to 5.9% from February 2011
A permanent, contractual, variable pay top up scheme, for Heathrow crew on Worldwide and Eurofleet Protection for your terms and conditions, now and in the future
All you need to do is confirm that you were not a member of Unite on December 14, 2010 and send the signed form back to us by January 31, 2011 in the envelope provided.
If you choose to accept the offer, you are not changing any other term or condition of your employment contract. You’d also enjoy the benefit of any deals that may be done in the future through the normal collective bargaining arrangement we have with Unite.
Don't get me wrong, I am delighted that people are finally seeing this offer as a way forward, but sadly it's taken a huge turnaround on BASSA's part to get the rest of you to see this. The only losers in all of this are the cabin crew as a whole as we have ALL ended up signing an offer far inferior to anything that was offered pre-strike!
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Young Paul,
To get a clear picture of this dispute, you really need to read all the threads, which have been discussing this for well over two years now.
I don't think there are any cabin crew that are happy with Mixed Fleet cabin crew working to less favourable agreements, conditions or having less pay. We would all prefer them to be working to the same agreements to us.
Although I am not a fan of BASSA the union, and would have wished they had been able to negotiate an inclusive way for new crew to be included in our terms and conditions, that is not what happened, firstly because BASSA tend to rush into industrial action and secondly because BA wanted crew to be working to inferior agreements. That was the end goal be it for all of us or just some of us and it is therefore a bit unfair to blame BASSA/UNITE and all cabin crew for this.
I think your post is rather unfair as BASSA/UNITE have all along been wanting to negotiate on behalf of ALL crew but they have only a few days ago been given the right to represent this new Mixed Fleet. In fact BA actually started Mixed Fleet after BASSA lost it's right during the IA to discuss any matters with BA.
You only have to look at a thread running in this very section where an Air France crew member discuses her companies rostering to see that BA were already operating in a much more economic way to many of it's European competitors.
I don't think it is strange that 10,000 people wish to keep their terms and conditions intact. Yes some of them went about it in a bad way but ALL of us and any other employee would not want to work to an inferior contract and reduce their pay. We all have mortgages and commitments based on our salaries which are not unusual when compared to other BA employees or people working in the London area and considerably low compared to Air France, Iberia, KLM etc. I agree Mixed Fleets pay is far too low and all cabin crew want that to change. We had no input at all into what BA has chosen to pay them.
So before you make out this is a simple problem with a simple answer try reading all the threads, which would take you weeks, rather than coming on a website and criticizing people and talking about something you know not much about.
To get a clear picture of this dispute, you really need to read all the threads, which have been discussing this for well over two years now.
I don't think there are any cabin crew that are happy with Mixed Fleet cabin crew working to less favourable agreements, conditions or having less pay. We would all prefer them to be working to the same agreements to us.
Although I am not a fan of BASSA the union, and would have wished they had been able to negotiate an inclusive way for new crew to be included in our terms and conditions, that is not what happened, firstly because BASSA tend to rush into industrial action and secondly because BA wanted crew to be working to inferior agreements. That was the end goal be it for all of us or just some of us and it is therefore a bit unfair to blame BASSA/UNITE and all cabin crew for this.
I think your post is rather unfair as BASSA/UNITE have all along been wanting to negotiate on behalf of ALL crew but they have only a few days ago been given the right to represent this new Mixed Fleet. In fact BA actually started Mixed Fleet after BASSA lost it's right during the IA to discuss any matters with BA.
You only have to look at a thread running in this very section where an Air France crew member discuses her companies rostering to see that BA were already operating in a much more economic way to many of it's European competitors.
I don't think it is strange that 10,000 people wish to keep their terms and conditions intact. Yes some of them went about it in a bad way but ALL of us and any other employee would not want to work to an inferior contract and reduce their pay. We all have mortgages and commitments based on our salaries which are not unusual when compared to other BA employees or people working in the London area and considerably low compared to Air France, Iberia, KLM etc. I agree Mixed Fleets pay is far too low and all cabin crew want that to change. We had no input at all into what BA has chosen to pay them.
So before you make out this is a simple problem with a simple answer try reading all the threads, which would take you weeks, rather than coming on a website and criticizing people and talking about something you know not much about.
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Miss M
Like many others have said, we could have achieved a far better deal if everyone who voted for industrial action hadn't crossed the picket line and if VCC had minded their own business instead of interfearing in our dispute.
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Pornpants and MissM
Miss M
Quote:
Like many others have said, we could have achieved a far better deal if everyone who voted for industrial action hadn't crossed the picket line and if VCC had minded their own business instead of interfearing in our dispute.
Quote:
Like many others have said, we could have achieved a far better deal if everyone who voted for industrial action hadn't crossed the picket line and if VCC had minded their own business instead of interfearing in our dispute.
You could have got a much better deal and avoided painful industrial action if BASSA had sat down and negotiated
and it goes round and round and round and round
Please can we stop rehashing what we are all aware of? Do you want to move on or stay stuck in this rut?
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Dingbat(icus),
I cannot believe you, of all people, posted this;
Really? Is your understanding of English law so flawed that you think there's a difference between naming and strongly hinting at, on a "public" forum or a "private" forum? Your posts on BASSA and particularly your "Gibbon's Quest" are not clever and not funny, yet you denigrate colleagues (including managers) maliciously in front of fellow colleagues who know exactly who you are referring to. These people work alongside and are managed by your "characters", the ones you refer to as trolls.
There is little daylight in what you do and what young Kevin did that led to his dismissal. The BASSA forum isn't private, there's no such thing in law. It's merely password protected, I have 11 such passwords, happy to share.
Yes I am, as you are. In fact you may even know me.
Here's two questions for you to ponder.
Who do you think asked for the 28 day extension for the ballot period, BA or Unite?
Who do you think asked for all litigation associated with this dispute to be dropped, BA or Unite?
Think it through, all is not what it seems.
I cannot believe you, of all people, posted this;
Yellow Pen in post 4128 you quote me and then go on to identify a named individual in what I find an unacceptable manner on a public forum. This could damage the named individual not only personally but professionally.
At no time have I identified any named individual as ‘management treacle’.
At no time have I identified any named individual as ‘management treacle’.
There is little daylight in what you do and what young Kevin did that led to his dismissal. The BASSA forum isn't private, there's no such thing in law. It's merely password protected, I have 11 such passwords, happy to share.
As for ‘new behaviours’, this will be required by BOTH sides of the dispute if BASSAWitch’s outburst is any indication. Are you really a CSD?
Here's two questions for you to ponder.
Who do you think asked for the 28 day extension for the ballot period, BA or Unite?
Who do you think asked for all litigation associated with this dispute to be dropped, BA or Unite?
Think it through, all is not what it seems.
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Whoa, people! Can we all just take a step back here? Please.
There is no need to try and entice people into a reaction, regardless which side of the fence they're on - even if they're sitting on the fence. There are some people who are bitter and twisted, there are some who live on cloud nine, some who are middle of the road, some are more (academically) intelligent than others, some are more "street wise" than others. Some can see through the fog, some cannot.
The point I'm trying to make is that we're all different. Please do not tar everyone with the same brush. Most people get on, but we cannot all get along as best friends. As long as colleagues (from all departments) are polite and professional, that's all that matters. Go for dinner and drinks if that suits you. Stay in your room if that's what you'd rather do. There's certainly no need to get all twitchy about it. Be courteous, even if you do not particularly like someone.
I'm fully aware that we have some crew who do not perform as well as they should. That needs to be dealt with through the proper channels and not here or any other forum. I'm also fully aware of the crew who do go the extra mile and perform brilliantly, and they should be recognised too.
This is the time to use your time and energy to narrow the gap. Take some time chatting to your colleagues, and you may find out as to why certain behaviours happen. Most people would just like someone to listen to them, and not make assumptions just because they heard something on the grapevine/galleyfm/jungle telegraph. Stop rumours in their tracks by not re-telling the tale.
In short, what I'm trying to say: Don't tar everyone with the same brush and be kind to each other. Simple as that. Then at least we can try to build bridges and have a nicer work environment.
Having flown with both strikers, non-strikers and VCCs, I've found no need to be anything but professional and nice. Being able to respect other's beliefs is a good quality to have. Learn it and use it.
Moving on, I hope this whole debacle is finally nearing an end. There will be people around who will find it hard to forgive and forget, so please help them. You may not feel like it, but anger breeds anger and kindness breeds kindness. Let's all move on. I'm not suggesting we should all be like the Walton family, but building bridges will have to start somewhere, so why not here and now?
There is no need to try and entice people into a reaction, regardless which side of the fence they're on - even if they're sitting on the fence. There are some people who are bitter and twisted, there are some who live on cloud nine, some who are middle of the road, some are more (academically) intelligent than others, some are more "street wise" than others. Some can see through the fog, some cannot.
The point I'm trying to make is that we're all different. Please do not tar everyone with the same brush. Most people get on, but we cannot all get along as best friends. As long as colleagues (from all departments) are polite and professional, that's all that matters. Go for dinner and drinks if that suits you. Stay in your room if that's what you'd rather do. There's certainly no need to get all twitchy about it. Be courteous, even if you do not particularly like someone.
I'm fully aware that we have some crew who do not perform as well as they should. That needs to be dealt with through the proper channels and not here or any other forum. I'm also fully aware of the crew who do go the extra mile and perform brilliantly, and they should be recognised too.
This is the time to use your time and energy to narrow the gap. Take some time chatting to your colleagues, and you may find out as to why certain behaviours happen. Most people would just like someone to listen to them, and not make assumptions just because they heard something on the grapevine/galleyfm/jungle telegraph. Stop rumours in their tracks by not re-telling the tale.
In short, what I'm trying to say: Don't tar everyone with the same brush and be kind to each other. Simple as that. Then at least we can try to build bridges and have a nicer work environment.
Having flown with both strikers, non-strikers and VCCs, I've found no need to be anything but professional and nice. Being able to respect other's beliefs is a good quality to have. Learn it and use it.
Moving on, I hope this whole debacle is finally nearing an end. There will be people around who will find it hard to forgive and forget, so please help them. You may not feel like it, but anger breeds anger and kindness breeds kindness. Let's all move on. I'm not suggesting we should all be like the Walton family, but building bridges will have to start somewhere, so why not here and now?
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And on that high note, we will now start a longish 'BA CC Industrial Relations'-free period on this forum.
After many years of this thread we need the holiday, and you need to re-build a cordial working relationship, rather than continuing to snipe at each other online.
We wish you all the very best.
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