BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Originally posted by Duncan Holley
What have you got?
Staff travel back in it's entirety. (Remember that was only happening over WW's dead body).
No more VCCs
Independant binding arbitration for all discips and sackings
Your union back as before with reps in offices etc
a pay deal the same as the pilots
What have you got?
Staff travel back in it's entirety. (Remember that was only happening over WW's dead body).
No more VCCs
Independant binding arbitration for all discips and sackings
Your union back as before with reps in offices etc
a pay deal the same as the pilots
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The really sad thing about DH and BASSA is they don't realise or have the intelligence that they have been played. Its like the best "hustle" episode ever done.
Never mind I'm happy
Never mind I'm happy
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Firstly well said everyone on here tonight for some of the best posts I've read for ages. Top marks though to Sporran - that summed it all up perfectly.
BG. I know we haven't actually met at work but I do feel I know you from all the wonderful posts you put on here. However I have disagree with you regarding WW. I wrote to KW a few weeks ago and in his reply he openly mentioned that the main reason this dispute happened was because of the past failures of senior BA management. I agree.
Because of this failure over the last 20-30 years, it was going to take something of gargantuan proportions to get to where we are today. But it has happened and that's down mainly to WW. now let's get one thing straight here. I'm no friend of WW BUT he and probably Bill Francis have had to take some awful stuff thrown at them in the last two years. As has been said, TW and WW did the same deal as now back in October last year, but tomato boy wouldn't put it to HIS members. As I've mentioned before here, whoever has briefed WW throughout this dispute knows the whole history of Bassa. And that's why WW didn't give back ST in full last Oct. I know Mr. Holley enough to know that had he got ST back in full, he would have seen that as a weakness on BAs part, and he would have then moved onto the next thing. Give him an inch at your peril. Remember the famous announcement of an upcoming strike at 1000 on 10/10/10. ( or xxxx in bassa talk) That was so typical DH. So BG, I fully respect your viewpoint but in this case I disagree simply because I know what Holley is capable of ( hi dunc by the way xx ). it's not your fault in ANY way but you have to know DH to realise what he is capable of.
Sporron got it spot on with the good cop/ bad cop analogy regarding WW and KW. I said the same myself yesterday in fact.
Finally at work today I had the first of many no doubt, strikers giving me the 'winning look'. All I can say is that I'm actually ashamed and embarrassed that these so called colleagues are so naive and stupid IMO.
BG. I know we haven't actually met at work but I do feel I know you from all the wonderful posts you put on here. However I have disagree with you regarding WW. I wrote to KW a few weeks ago and in his reply he openly mentioned that the main reason this dispute happened was because of the past failures of senior BA management. I agree.
Because of this failure over the last 20-30 years, it was going to take something of gargantuan proportions to get to where we are today. But it has happened and that's down mainly to WW. now let's get one thing straight here. I'm no friend of WW BUT he and probably Bill Francis have had to take some awful stuff thrown at them in the last two years. As has been said, TW and WW did the same deal as now back in October last year, but tomato boy wouldn't put it to HIS members. As I've mentioned before here, whoever has briefed WW throughout this dispute knows the whole history of Bassa. And that's why WW didn't give back ST in full last Oct. I know Mr. Holley enough to know that had he got ST back in full, he would have seen that as a weakness on BAs part, and he would have then moved onto the next thing. Give him an inch at your peril. Remember the famous announcement of an upcoming strike at 1000 on 10/10/10. ( or xxxx in bassa talk) That was so typical DH. So BG, I fully respect your viewpoint but in this case I disagree simply because I know what Holley is capable of ( hi dunc by the way xx ). it's not your fault in ANY way but you have to know DH to realise what he is capable of.
Sporron got it spot on with the good cop/ bad cop analogy regarding WW and KW. I said the same myself yesterday in fact.
Finally at work today I had the first of many no doubt, strikers giving me the 'winning look'. All I can say is that I'm actually ashamed and embarrassed that these so called colleagues are so naive and stupid IMO.
Last edited by JUAN TRIPP; 13th May 2011 at 23:24. Reason: Spelling and extra info
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Any employees dismissed for dispute related reasons, and whose case has not been heard by an Employment Tribunal, may elect to have their case heard through the ACAS arbitration scheme.
I think BASSA are reading this as, "Any employees dismissed for dispute related reasons, and THOSE whose case has not been heard etc". Inserting that one word means arbitration applies to those already fired and those who are awaiting 'trial'. Remove that word and you get rid of the ones already fired and it is only the ones awaiting 'trial' that get the ACAS deal. It's pretty clear in the original text but I wonder if this is what it meant to say or if BASSA are correct.
Probably more deliberate misdirection from Duncan which 'bigs up' one part of the deal in BASSA's favour.
PS: Since Duncan was only elected with a show of hands to remain in office until this problem was sorted out, does it now mean he is out of a job with BASSA? He's no longer employed by BA and, even if he was, it would require a proper vote of all BASSA members for him to remain (as opposed to a show of hands from the party faithful); so I think that means it might be 'goodbye' but can anyone confirm/deny this?
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both sides have been as bad as each other and many of us were just pawns in the middle
BA have not engaged in personal attacks once.
They have had to play it by the book in accordance with the law and have been honest and loyal to their staff and shareholders.
Willie had to undo decades of tangled industrial relationships in one go. He did it!
The militants have been out of control, with vilriolic and violent attacks, bullying and intimidation, lies and deliberately malicious and dangerous behaviour.
The pawns............................
Too many crew just went along for the ride!
Didn't find out the facts, or challenge the infomation they were given.
Weak minded lemmings who allowed DH and others to lead them into such a pathetic and losing situation.
Credit though to those crew who did stand up for themselves, who took the time to find out the truth, to weigh the arguments, risked being ostracised or outcast.
Now crew must challenge the Unite / Bassa / CC89 constitution and operation.
Follow the money is always a good start.
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If BASSA are spinning that they've won and it's an honourable settlement that Crew should vote through, then fine. I'm sure the rest of us can live with what's been agreed. However BA are well known for being extremely creative with their interpretation of agreements (ask any BALPA member) so time will tell.
ST e.g. won't be returned until new relationships are in force, which could well be in 2013 , which was exactly what WW and TW shook hands on.
ST e.g. won't be returned until new relationships are in force, which could well be in 2013 , which was exactly what WW and TW shook hands on.
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Originally Posted by JUAN TRIPP
And that's why WW didn't give back ST in full last Oct. I know Mr. Holley enough to know that had he got ST back in full, he would have seen that as a weakness on BAs part, and he would have then moved onto the next thing.
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Many thousands of posts ago, in a thread long closed, someone wiser than I posted a quotation along the lines of "never interrupt your enemy when he is in the process of making a mistake!"
It seems the time for pointing out that actually BASSA hasn't won, that the deal on the table is the same one re-spun, may not be be now. Let them vote for it, let the ink dry so that the whole thing can be put to bed and then point out that they have made a monumental error. Please don't discourage the voters yet!
It seems the time for pointing out that actually BASSA hasn't won, that the deal on the table is the same one re-spun, may not be be now. Let them vote for it, let the ink dry so that the whole thing can be put to bed and then point out that they have made a monumental error. Please don't discourage the voters yet!
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Its nothing like the same deal.
The PVEG is now contractual and permanent.
Route distribution will be fair and carried out by an independent party to ensure fairness using the Carmen banding system. BA have admitted that so far this has not been the case as all current L/H routes except 1 have been long range. Therefore BA have agreed to change this within 6 months on the advice of the independent.
BA have agreed to comply with all ACAS recommendations ( even if that includes reinstatement )
The PVEG is now contractual and permanent.
Route distribution will be fair and carried out by an independent party to ensure fairness using the Carmen banding system. BA have admitted that so far this has not been the case as all current L/H routes except 1 have been long range. Therefore BA have agreed to change this within 6 months on the advice of the independent.
BA have agreed to comply with all ACAS recommendations ( even if that includes reinstatement )
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Moo
So after all this time, with 22 days of strike action, which was about imposition (so people tell me) you now have something contractual on some of your allowances, (or a baseline average, try explaining that one) please tell me you don't view that as a victory?
Remember NF is here to stay! remember the new crew complements are here to stay! (thats what you went on strike for)Your disruption agreement is now a "tell" not "ask", no more double nights after a diversion. Part of your pay rise this year and next based upon further productivity changes.
please show me where in the settlement document it specifically says this.
I can only find reference to
what if ACAS find that BA were correct it sacking them in the first place, will that make you happy?
So after all this time, with 22 days of strike action, which was about imposition (so people tell me) you now have something contractual on some of your allowances, (or a baseline average, try explaining that one) please tell me you don't view that as a victory?
Remember NF is here to stay! remember the new crew complements are here to stay! (thats what you went on strike for)Your disruption agreement is now a "tell" not "ask", no more double nights after a diversion. Part of your pay rise this year and next based upon further productivity changes.
BA have admitted that so far this has not been the case as all current L/H routes except 1 have been long range. Therefore BA have agreed to change this within 6 months on the advice of the independent.
I can only find reference to
There will be a fair and transparent distribution of routes across all fleets consistent with commercial need. There will be seasonal reviews chaired by an independent third party to ensure this is achieved.
BA have agreed to comply with all ACAS recommendations ( even if that includes reinstatement )
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Moo,
I will agree that those reassurances are good (although the agreement I signed did have reassurances that there would be independent reviews). It was always permanent, people were wrongly saying it was only for two years but that just referred to the pay deal but Bassa chose to spin it as being bad and not permanent!.
All the routes being long range bar one is not true
Nairobi, Atlanta and Luanda are not long rang. That's three.
I do agree that it was being done wrongly and the balance was not right.
It was like they were saying one good, one not so good, one good, one not so good but they were forgetting that, not so good trips outnumber good trips by 4:1 at least. So for it to have been fair it should have been, one good trip, three not so good.
However I don't think BA were counting in their figures the new routes, as they were not part of the worldwide trips in the first place!, so if you remove Haneda and San Diego it was not that unfair. You could hardly say that Worldwide crew were unhappy with losing Denver and Las Vegas either!.
Anyway it is good that you are now happy and hopefully we can all move on now.
As for BA agreeing that it was unfair, I don't think so, my manager told me that BF went into great detail in their meeting on Thursday morning saying he thought routes were being transferred fairly!! But at least, now that you have come to an agreement, these independent people can actually start monitoring it all, finally!
As ottergirl says it's time to stop this goading and lets get on and enjoy the end of this mess. In a way it is a good outcome if both sides feel they have won. We should all be happy!!!
I will agree that those reassurances are good (although the agreement I signed did have reassurances that there would be independent reviews). It was always permanent, people were wrongly saying it was only for two years but that just referred to the pay deal but Bassa chose to spin it as being bad and not permanent!.
All the routes being long range bar one is not true
Nairobi, Atlanta and Luanda are not long rang. That's three.
I do agree that it was being done wrongly and the balance was not right.
It was like they were saying one good, one not so good, one good, one not so good but they were forgetting that, not so good trips outnumber good trips by 4:1 at least. So for it to have been fair it should have been, one good trip, three not so good.
However I don't think BA were counting in their figures the new routes, as they were not part of the worldwide trips in the first place!, so if you remove Haneda and San Diego it was not that unfair. You could hardly say that Worldwide crew were unhappy with losing Denver and Las Vegas either!.
Anyway it is good that you are now happy and hopefully we can all move on now.
As for BA agreeing that it was unfair, I don't think so, my manager told me that BF went into great detail in their meeting on Thursday morning saying he thought routes were being transferred fairly!! But at least, now that you have come to an agreement, these independent people can actually start monitoring it all, finally!
As ottergirl says it's time to stop this goading and lets get on and enjoy the end of this mess. In a way it is a good outcome if both sides feel they have won. We should all be happy!!!
Last edited by Betty girl; 14th May 2011 at 13:16.
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Reassurances are no good if they are broken. Nobody in Business would take a reassurance only something in writing that is contractually binding .
BA has proved that " agreements " are sometimes not upheld by them.
And ok admitted that some of the routes I quoted are not Box trips but they are Destination trips.
The managers that accepted the unfairness to me was a chat with 4 managers at their desk in the CRC.
Finally people who go on about " It's all about the removal of 1 off the A/C " are ignorant to the facts.
We went on strike due to imposition ( not the reduced crew comps ) and as this was the only thing that had been imposed this was the only thing we could cite.
But moving forward I am happy with the agreement.
BA has proved that " agreements " are sometimes not upheld by them.
And ok admitted that some of the routes I quoted are not Box trips but they are Destination trips.
The managers that accepted the unfairness to me was a chat with 4 managers at their desk in the CRC.
Finally people who go on about " It's all about the removal of 1 off the A/C " are ignorant to the facts.
We went on strike due to imposition ( not the reduced crew comps ) and as this was the only thing that had been imposed this was the only thing we could cite.
But moving forward I am happy with the agreement.
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Imposition, not Imposition
"We went on strike due to imposition ( not the reduced crew comps ) and as this was the only thing that had been imposed this was the only thing we could cite".
Thanks for your explanation of the root cause of the strike.
What a sensitive bunch you are! Just one instance of Imposition makes you rant and rave for 2 years whilst costing yourselves, your customers and your long suffering employers a fortune and terrorising your more balanced work mates.
I think any remaining Bassamentalists ought to wear a xxxx lanyard so that ordinary people can tiptoe around them so's not to upset them.
Congratulations and thanks to all the stable cabin crew and other BA staff that have kept the fleet operating.
Thanks for your explanation of the root cause of the strike.
What a sensitive bunch you are! Just one instance of Imposition makes you rant and rave for 2 years whilst costing yourselves, your customers and your long suffering employers a fortune and terrorising your more balanced work mates.
I think any remaining Bassamentalists ought to wear a xxxx lanyard so that ordinary people can tiptoe around them so's not to upset them.
Congratulations and thanks to all the stable cabin crew and other BA staff that have kept the fleet operating.
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Betty Girl, it has been a while since I surfed the stormy waters of Pprune. We may be on the opposite side politically but I have do admire the way you have always held your own, in what has not always been the friendliest of environments.
Indeed had PCCC had more crew like you, they may have been a force to be reckoned with.
We now appear to have an offer of agreement from the Company that demands BASSA and ’89 not only operate jointly under the umbrella of Unite but merge as a truly unified negotiating body. I suspect our clinical psychologist has identified previous divisions as a flash point of our much reported ‘dysfunctionality’ (yes, I probably made that word up, Thesaurus not at hand lol).
More dysfunctionality is the negative nit picking evident both here and on the pro BASSA forums. After such a bitter prolonged dispute it is hard for some to drop the cyber armour and embrace each other.
Both sides appear to be asking who ‘won’ what and attempting to score points. Surely a Peace Treaty means our customer is the winner, as we focus our joint fight on regaining our place as a Brand to be trusted and envied.
May I suggest we stop dissecting and over analysing and commence working on how we are going to jointly repair the damage to our Brand and Communities?
It is not only Cabin Crew who will need to adapt to a new management style, Mr Williams may not be Mr Walsh but sometimes quiet authority is the most effective!
I am thrilled some of you are able to boast of having ‘high level’ meetings with IFCE, my personal lowly achievement is having Cabin Crew socialize down route, not worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize but vital baby steps in the healing process.
I must ask, are you pleased we have an opportunity to move forward and end the industrial hostilities? I ask, as many of you may be ex military and I am not getting a sense of positivity to the possibility of an honourable negotiated settlement. You may be natural warriors but BASSAMentalists are natural lovers and it is time for peace to be restored.
Some may accuse BASSA of being entrenched but revisiting Pprune, I feel some are missing the message. Mr Walsh has left the building. While Mr Williams may not be the ‘Good Cop’ stepping into his shoes, he is an Accountant with his eye on the bottom line. It is time to unify our previously divided energy and rebuild Brand Britain.
Globally, we are on a high after the Royal Wedding and we have the upcoming 2012 Olympics. As official backers for the Olympic bid, we should be capitalizing on this marketing opportunity.
Are you Backing BA or your personal agendas?
Betty Girl, rejoin BASSA or whatever our merged Union is named and change it from the inside. Your commitment and passion may prove the common ground in the much needed healing process for our Cabin Crew Community.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions.
Indeed had PCCC had more crew like you, they may have been a force to be reckoned with.
We now appear to have an offer of agreement from the Company that demands BASSA and ’89 not only operate jointly under the umbrella of Unite but merge as a truly unified negotiating body. I suspect our clinical psychologist has identified previous divisions as a flash point of our much reported ‘dysfunctionality’ (yes, I probably made that word up, Thesaurus not at hand lol).
More dysfunctionality is the negative nit picking evident both here and on the pro BASSA forums. After such a bitter prolonged dispute it is hard for some to drop the cyber armour and embrace each other.
Both sides appear to be asking who ‘won’ what and attempting to score points. Surely a Peace Treaty means our customer is the winner, as we focus our joint fight on regaining our place as a Brand to be trusted and envied.
May I suggest we stop dissecting and over analysing and commence working on how we are going to jointly repair the damage to our Brand and Communities?
It is not only Cabin Crew who will need to adapt to a new management style, Mr Williams may not be Mr Walsh but sometimes quiet authority is the most effective!
I am thrilled some of you are able to boast of having ‘high level’ meetings with IFCE, my personal lowly achievement is having Cabin Crew socialize down route, not worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize but vital baby steps in the healing process.
I must ask, are you pleased we have an opportunity to move forward and end the industrial hostilities? I ask, as many of you may be ex military and I am not getting a sense of positivity to the possibility of an honourable negotiated settlement. You may be natural warriors but BASSAMentalists are natural lovers and it is time for peace to be restored.
Some may accuse BASSA of being entrenched but revisiting Pprune, I feel some are missing the message. Mr Walsh has left the building. While Mr Williams may not be the ‘Good Cop’ stepping into his shoes, he is an Accountant with his eye on the bottom line. It is time to unify our previously divided energy and rebuild Brand Britain.
Globally, we are on a high after the Royal Wedding and we have the upcoming 2012 Olympics. As official backers for the Olympic bid, we should be capitalizing on this marketing opportunity.
Are you Backing BA or your personal agendas?
Betty Girl, rejoin BASSA or whatever our merged Union is named and change it from the inside. Your commitment and passion may prove the common ground in the much needed healing process for our Cabin Crew Community.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions.
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Great post Dingbat. And so different to your posts on the other forum. Have to agree with everything you wrote. It's time to reconcile. However, I would warn everybody of re-joining ''BASSA or whatever it'll be called'' just yet. Too many wrongs by this institution in the past. Never felt so let down by an organisation, that I helped funding over a 12 year period. Stupid donkey comes to mind. So let's just wait and see how that ''new body of true negotiations'' will perform.
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Dingbaticus,
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful post.
I feel optimistic about the future and I am glad that you seem to too.
Lets hope that all these agreements are upheld fairly by BA and we can all, again, feel that BA values all of us equally, even if some of us are more expensive than others; and also let hope that BA treats our Mixed Fleet colleagues fairly and allows them to have a fair and rewarding work/life balance too. This, them and us, divide has been very unnecessary and unfair on both sets of crew and lets hope that stops too.
I am not sure if I will rejoin the union, I will see how things pan out and think about it, it will all depend what kind of people inherit the mantle from DH and LM and what kind of rhetoric they come out with.
Thank you.
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful post.
I feel optimistic about the future and I am glad that you seem to too.
Lets hope that all these agreements are upheld fairly by BA and we can all, again, feel that BA values all of us equally, even if some of us are more expensive than others; and also let hope that BA treats our Mixed Fleet colleagues fairly and allows them to have a fair and rewarding work/life balance too. This, them and us, divide has been very unnecessary and unfair on both sets of crew and lets hope that stops too.
I am not sure if I will rejoin the union, I will see how things pan out and think about it, it will all depend what kind of people inherit the mantle from DH and LM and what kind of rhetoric they come out with.
Thank you.
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Tunbridge Wells said:
"Who cares who is claiming victory? The time for point scoring is past - onwards and upawards (literally!) "
Two things to consider here:
1) a ballot still has to be held, if the voters are told that the deal is rubbish and that BASSA have let them down, might they consider voting No to the deal....?
however.............
2) BASSA still have in place a discredited leadership. Repeated criticism might hasten their departure
To crow or not to crow - that is the question.
"Who cares who is claiming victory? The time for point scoring is past - onwards and upawards (literally!) "
Two things to consider here:
1) a ballot still has to be held, if the voters are told that the deal is rubbish and that BASSA have let them down, might they consider voting No to the deal....?
however.............
2) BASSA still have in place a discredited leadership. Repeated criticism might hasten their departure
To crow or not to crow - that is the question.