BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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I agree, though I would say that the deal we signed is, rather than "similar to", VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to the settlement deal.
You got 2.9% and no shares.
Yet again, great work BASSA! Ooh, and remind me again what pay deal the Ground staff managed to negotiate without all this drama?And for DH
Transfer rights and part-time tights restored on a vacancy led sytem
Did the media course not include proof reading?
Last edited by ottergirl; 13th May 2011 at 12:31.
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In reply to A V Flyer.
I have always thought WW has been a good CEO and he has served BA well in how he has got our costs down etc.
However I and many others feel that this dispute could have been ended many months ago, if a different style of CEO was in office back then.
This offer is almost identical to the one that many of us signed and had staff travel been restored as part of the last offer, we may have had an end many months ago.
During the first year of this dispute WW and Bassa have had personality clashes and from what I have heard WW refused to even speak with Bassa reps and discussions with reps had to take place through Unite officials because WW refused to sit in the same room as them.
More recently almost exactly the same offer has been accepted by Bassa and it includes big changes to the way they and BA do business and this has been achieved because both sides have amended the way they do business and talks have included reps that understand how our agreements work.
WW was and still is a good leader but his confrontational style, in my opinion, has in fact prolonged this dispute and made it harder for a solution to be found. That's my opinion and it does not mean that I cannot see that he was a good CEO in the sense that he has guided BA through a lot of cost cutting to get us through a bad recession and for that I applaud him but his hard ball stance has not been good and KW has ended up with a good outcome for BA which I feel could have been achieved last time had Bassa been included in the talks like this time.
Of course I hold BASSA responsible mostly and this is because a strike was totally unnecessary in the first place but WW stance and hard ball attitude actually has made the whole affair worse, in my humble opinion.
As hardly any of the PCCC are current members of Unite, I very much doubt that any of us could stand for election! There are some very good Bassa and Amicus reps out there particularly many of the line reps, they have just been badly led by DH and the rest of the committee, so hopefully the future will be bright and a new relationship will evolve between Unite and BA, one that moves our airline forward.
I have always thought WW has been a good CEO and he has served BA well in how he has got our costs down etc.
However I and many others feel that this dispute could have been ended many months ago, if a different style of CEO was in office back then.
This offer is almost identical to the one that many of us signed and had staff travel been restored as part of the last offer, we may have had an end many months ago.
During the first year of this dispute WW and Bassa have had personality clashes and from what I have heard WW refused to even speak with Bassa reps and discussions with reps had to take place through Unite officials because WW refused to sit in the same room as them.
More recently almost exactly the same offer has been accepted by Bassa and it includes big changes to the way they and BA do business and this has been achieved because both sides have amended the way they do business and talks have included reps that understand how our agreements work.
WW was and still is a good leader but his confrontational style, in my opinion, has in fact prolonged this dispute and made it harder for a solution to be found. That's my opinion and it does not mean that I cannot see that he was a good CEO in the sense that he has guided BA through a lot of cost cutting to get us through a bad recession and for that I applaud him but his hard ball stance has not been good and KW has ended up with a good outcome for BA which I feel could have been achieved last time had Bassa been included in the talks like this time.
Of course I hold BASSA responsible mostly and this is because a strike was totally unnecessary in the first place but WW stance and hard ball attitude actually has made the whole affair worse, in my humble opinion.
As hardly any of the PCCC are current members of Unite, I very much doubt that any of us could stand for election! There are some very good Bassa and Amicus reps out there particularly many of the line reps, they have just been badly led by DH and the rest of the committee, so hopefully the future will be bright and a new relationship will evolve between Unite and BA, one that moves our airline forward.
Last edited by Betty girl; 13th May 2011 at 13:28.
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During the first year of this dispute WW and Bassa have had personality clashes and from what I have heard WW refused to even speak with Bassa reps and discussions with reps had to take place through Unite officials because WW refused to sit in the same room as them.
PM me if you want further details
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Unbiased reporting?
Betty Girl
I understand your feelings regarding the dispute ending sooner if WW had not been in charge. WW was brought in by the board to do a job and I think he has well and truly carried out that job.
He had to get our costs down, but some of that ‘costs problem’ related directly to the attitude of employees within BA. The power of unions to bring the airline to a halt is a very unfortunate hangover from the days of being a nationalised industry. In all the years that I have been in BA bassa have been militant bully-boys who have threatened IA if they did not get their way. They have been completely unwilling to move with the times and look where it has now brought them.
WW has now managed to push through new working agreements with ALL groups at BA. Even a few years ago this would have been totally unthinkable. All workgroups, except one, were willing to look at the problems and move with the times. The one group that were completely unwilling to engage have at last been ‘put in their place’ and if the exact wording of the agreement is fulfilled “there will be a single cabin crew Unite branch’ they may have also signed their own demise.
WW moved on to be CEO of the group and KW took over. He may well be a less abrasive character than WW, but he was WWs right-hand man then and he is still his right-hand man on a different level now. A better analogy is the ‘good cop, bad cop’ approach. WW softened bassa up, for KW to come in and get a confession!!!
In financial terms the company have achieved more than they could have imagined: sensible crew complements, the cost saving of MF (which only came in after the initial strike action), putting bassa ‘in their place’ while still having collective bargaining via Untie, a big financial saving in the new facilities agreement and a disruption agreement that is now fit for purpose. The huge number of ‘pointless’ meetings will now be hugely reduced and should hopefully result in better and more fruitful outcomes.
On the more ‘human’ side of the dispute BA now have management control over cabin crew at last – one of the main issues all along! bassa reps will not now be able to abuse their powers / the system by picking up all the plum trips. Since the unhealthy influence of bassa has now reduced I am hoping for a more streamlined operational environment as well. The number of times that bassa have had an ‘unhealthy influence’ over CC management will hopefully reduce and we will not be stuck with situations such as in-flight diversions due duty hours or lengthy delays due to missing cabin crew.
I suspect that the hatred and anger that has been deliberately stirred up will last for quite a while. I am at a loss to explain the lies, hatred etc etc that has come from a certain hateful ‘sacked’ individual and I am at an even bigger loss to understand how one such vile individual has been allowed to lead a decent bunch of people to the edge of a precipice.
Let’s hope that the voices of decent individuals who want to do a good job will now be heard and that the healing process can begin.
I understand your feelings regarding the dispute ending sooner if WW had not been in charge. WW was brought in by the board to do a job and I think he has well and truly carried out that job.
He had to get our costs down, but some of that ‘costs problem’ related directly to the attitude of employees within BA. The power of unions to bring the airline to a halt is a very unfortunate hangover from the days of being a nationalised industry. In all the years that I have been in BA bassa have been militant bully-boys who have threatened IA if they did not get their way. They have been completely unwilling to move with the times and look where it has now brought them.
WW has now managed to push through new working agreements with ALL groups at BA. Even a few years ago this would have been totally unthinkable. All workgroups, except one, were willing to look at the problems and move with the times. The one group that were completely unwilling to engage have at last been ‘put in their place’ and if the exact wording of the agreement is fulfilled “there will be a single cabin crew Unite branch’ they may have also signed their own demise.
WW moved on to be CEO of the group and KW took over. He may well be a less abrasive character than WW, but he was WWs right-hand man then and he is still his right-hand man on a different level now. A better analogy is the ‘good cop, bad cop’ approach. WW softened bassa up, for KW to come in and get a confession!!!
In financial terms the company have achieved more than they could have imagined: sensible crew complements, the cost saving of MF (which only came in after the initial strike action), putting bassa ‘in their place’ while still having collective bargaining via Untie, a big financial saving in the new facilities agreement and a disruption agreement that is now fit for purpose. The huge number of ‘pointless’ meetings will now be hugely reduced and should hopefully result in better and more fruitful outcomes.
On the more ‘human’ side of the dispute BA now have management control over cabin crew at last – one of the main issues all along! bassa reps will not now be able to abuse their powers / the system by picking up all the plum trips. Since the unhealthy influence of bassa has now reduced I am hoping for a more streamlined operational environment as well. The number of times that bassa have had an ‘unhealthy influence’ over CC management will hopefully reduce and we will not be stuck with situations such as in-flight diversions due duty hours or lengthy delays due to missing cabin crew.
I suspect that the hatred and anger that has been deliberately stirred up will last for quite a while. I am at a loss to explain the lies, hatred etc etc that has come from a certain hateful ‘sacked’ individual and I am at an even bigger loss to understand how one such vile individual has been allowed to lead a decent bunch of people to the edge of a precipice.
Let’s hope that the voices of decent individuals who want to do a good job will now be heard and that the healing process can begin.
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Sporran,
I agree with what you say, I was merely saying that it could have been solved easily last time, except that WW was making a point of punishing the strikers with Staff Travel removal.
I said at the time that most crew would accept the offer but that the feeling of being punished and having their staff travel removed plus the feeling of unfairness over some of the dismissals were both things preventing a deal.
As this deal is basically the same, I feel I was right and had WW got a slightly less abrasive personality, I feel this would have ended earlier, with all that BA have now.
Just my own opinion and I am not saying that some of this was not nessasary just that it could have easily ended earlier.
I agree with what you say, I was merely saying that it could have been solved easily last time, except that WW was making a point of punishing the strikers with Staff Travel removal.
I said at the time that most crew would accept the offer but that the feeling of being punished and having their staff travel removed plus the feeling of unfairness over some of the dismissals were both things preventing a deal.
As this deal is basically the same, I feel I was right and had WW got a slightly less abrasive personality, I feel this would have ended earlier, with all that BA have now.
Just my own opinion and I am not saying that some of this was not nessasary just that it could have easily ended earlier.
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Thanks Betty....I thought that would have been discussed, but couldn't find it in anywhere. I am really worrying financially about the future to be honest 
Love the job, love the people
Love the job, love the people
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I don't think so BG, BASSA had a history of trying to railroad BA, there was going to be no amicable settlement to this one. The lines needed to be redrawn, there is no place anymore for unions that put their own agenda ahead of the survival of the company. As was said earlier, WW played his part very well and backed BASSA into a very tight corner. KW then provided a way out, providing the original basic BA objectives were met. WW didn't get to head up IAG by accident, he is extremely good at what he does. If you look at BA's wishlist and BASSA's wishlist, the victor is clear.
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You really don't get it do you, you (EX!!!)BASSA lot
Simply, you've lost!
i cant really put it to you in a more simple way.....
Here is the reason why, you are in NO better position than you were PRIOR to the 22 days of strikes and LOSS OF MONEY, oh and loss of staff Travel, which you were all saying you didn't really care about, yeah right
what was it, you can stick ya ID90s up ya *****......oh please give me a break!
22 days of IA, for ummm imposition, what has happened? its NOT been reversed, so thats a lose
Then it was Mixed Fleet, ummmm its still there, Funny that
ANOTHER LOSS!
Then came along the individual agreement for NON union members, oh thats not fair, how come we haven't got that....answer....because YOUR union never put it to you to vote on, thats why
however what is now extremely wired is that is exactly what Lenny and DH and all the reps are now saying is the best thing since sliced bread, and recommending a fantastic deal. Oh give me a break, you guyz have got a big fat "0" and nothing more
Just think what you have now that you DIDNT have prior strike
and now think what you COULD of had
A win?, far from it
the biggest LOSS i think any of us will ever see, more of a loss that we had with open skyes, and to top it all off, BASSA is NO MORE, kaput, finito, gone,
anyway, get that pen, you have a box to tick!!!
Simply, you've lost!
i cant really put it to you in a more simple way.....
Here is the reason why, you are in NO better position than you were PRIOR to the 22 days of strikes and LOSS OF MONEY, oh and loss of staff Travel, which you were all saying you didn't really care about, yeah right
what was it, you can stick ya ID90s up ya *****......oh please give me a break!
22 days of IA, for ummm imposition, what has happened? its NOT been reversed, so thats a lose
Then it was Mixed Fleet, ummmm its still there, Funny that
ANOTHER LOSS!
Then came along the individual agreement for NON union members, oh thats not fair, how come we haven't got that....answer....because YOUR union never put it to you to vote on, thats why
however what is now extremely wired is that is exactly what Lenny and DH and all the reps are now saying is the best thing since sliced bread, and recommending a fantastic deal. Oh give me a break, you guyz have got a big fat "0" and nothing more
Just think what you have now that you DIDNT have prior strike
and now think what you COULD of had
A win?, far from it
the biggest LOSS i think any of us will ever see, more of a loss that we had with open skyes, and to top it all off, BASSA is NO MORE, kaput, finito, gone,
anyway, get that pen, you have a box to tick!!!
Last edited by report call sign; 13th May 2011 at 19:39.
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report call sign. I am not in BASSA.
It is a sad day when someone can't have an opinion about how they personally feel about someone and how in their opinion he aggravated things.
I know he got what he wanted but my point is that this was all in the agreement that I signed and it was his spiteful nature over sackings and staff travel that has actually prolonged this.
You obviously don't post here very often otherwise you would not be having a go at me because I have been against BASSA and the strike from the beginning.
If you want to have pops at people you are on the wrong site, go back to CC.com!
I just made a simple comment two pages ago and have been got at ever since.
My opinion of WW is held by the majority of cabin crew and that includes most of those that did not strike. Also many pilots feel he aggravated the situation and made matters worse at the end. We have got the same deal as I signed more or less but staff travel will be returned and the IA cases reviewed. They could have agreed that months ago!
KW has personally come to the CRC to speak to crew and asked our opinions, something that WW never did. He HAS got the best deal ever for BA but done it in a different way and I think it is fine for me to say so without being attacked unnecessarily..
It is a sad day when someone can't have an opinion about how they personally feel about someone and how in their opinion he aggravated things.
I know he got what he wanted but my point is that this was all in the agreement that I signed and it was his spiteful nature over sackings and staff travel that has actually prolonged this.
You obviously don't post here very often otherwise you would not be having a go at me because I have been against BASSA and the strike from the beginning.
If you want to have pops at people you are on the wrong site, go back to CC.com!
I just made a simple comment two pages ago and have been got at ever since.
My opinion of WW is held by the majority of cabin crew and that includes most of those that did not strike. Also many pilots feel he aggravated the situation and made matters worse at the end. We have got the same deal as I signed more or less but staff travel will be returned and the IA cases reviewed. They could have agreed that months ago!
KW has personally come to the CRC to speak to crew and asked our opinions, something that WW never did. He HAS got the best deal ever for BA but done it in a different way and I think it is fine for me to say so without being attacked unnecessarily..
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To betty girl
Betty Girl
please don't think my post was aimed at you
it was not at all
i didn't even have you in mind when posting it
it is aimed at BASSA members ONLY
nothing to do with you
sorry if you thought it was
Take care
please don't think my post was aimed at you
it was not at all
i didn't even have you in mind when posting it
it is aimed at BASSA members ONLY
nothing to do with you
sorry if you thought it was
Take care
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Is it over now? So that my partner and myself can move on?
Too many people have been affected by this and both BA and BASSA should be ashamed of themselves for having drawn it out so long.
Too many people have been affected by this and both BA and BASSA should be ashamed of themselves for having drawn it out so long.
Staff travel back in it's entirety. (Remember that was only happening over WW's dead body).
No more VCCs
Independant binding arbitration for all discips and sackings
Your union back as before with reps in offices etc
a pay deal the same as the pilots
No more VCCs
Independant binding arbitration for all discips and sackings
Your union back as before with reps in offices etc
a pay deal the same as the pilots
Staff Travel is not yet back in it's entirety - Unite have to prove that the working relationship is improved, and the agreement implemented before KW will then recommend to the Board that Staff Travel is returned in full.
The name of VCCs will be changed, thats all! They will still be there in a slightly different format. "A new company wide programme will be launched in all customer contact and customer support areas. The new programme will replace the current arrangements for voluntary cabin crew. The programme will also give cabin crew and other colleagues the chance to experience working in other areas across the business." Ready to be rolled out again when strikes are threatened? You bet!
Arbitration will not take place for all discips and sackings - only those that are not yet completed. For example, DH's case is over, finito! He will not be allowed another hearing. Simple!
The union will not be "back as before". Detail is not yet clear but KW has categorically stated that BA will only deal with one set of union people. I am willing to bet that is at the Unite level, not BASSA.
Pay deal same as the pilot's? Since when? The pilots got 4% and a share deal - how is that the same as noticeably less than 4% and no share deal.
Good grief! DH still cannot see past his twisted vision of the world!
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Sorry Report call sign I thought it was directed at me.
gcal.
I agree totally and that was my point really that both sides have been as bad as each other and many of us were just pawns in the middle. Even though i have totally disagreed with the strike it has been a very hard experience for me knowing that my employer does not value me anymore and that is how this has made many of us feel even if we understand the rational of it all.
I have found the whole thing very hard and I think the reason I posted on here so much has been because it has been an outlet for my feelings; it has been hard at work because it has been so emotive it was actually not something that we could all easily discuss together.
Hopefully it will all calm down now.
gcal.
I agree totally and that was my point really that both sides have been as bad as each other and many of us were just pawns in the middle. Even though i have totally disagreed with the strike it has been a very hard experience for me knowing that my employer does not value me anymore and that is how this has made many of us feel even if we understand the rational of it all.
I have found the whole thing very hard and I think the reason I posted on here so much has been because it has been an outlet for my feelings; it has been hard at work because it has been so emotive it was actually not something that we could all easily discuss together.
Hopefully it will all calm down now.
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Actually Abbey, this is what it says about dismissals.
Any employees dismissed for dispute related reasons, and whose case has not been heard by an Employment Tribunal, may elect to have their case heard through the ACAS arbitration scheme. The result will be binding on both parties. ACAS will also carry out a review of other dispute related disciplinary cases.
So as I read it they are going to look at all cases but those that have not yet gone to an Employment Tribunal can have the actual case heard by ACAS and that will have a binding result. Many have been sacked already and have not yet taken their case to tribunal so this will now be done by ACAS, but it finishes by saying ACAS will also carry out a review of other dispute related disciplinary cases.
But I totally agree that DH aka Walter Mity is putting a spin on it all!!
Any employees dismissed for dispute related reasons, and whose case has not been heard by an Employment Tribunal, may elect to have their case heard through the ACAS arbitration scheme. The result will be binding on both parties. ACAS will also carry out a review of other dispute related disciplinary cases.
So as I read it they are going to look at all cases but those that have not yet gone to an Employment Tribunal can have the actual case heard by ACAS and that will have a binding result. Many have been sacked already and have not yet taken their case to tribunal so this will now be done by ACAS, but it finishes by saying ACAS will also carry out a review of other dispute related disciplinary cases.
But I totally agree that DH aka Walter Mity is putting a spin on it all!!
