BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

[vctenderness]

How are they going to solve a problem like Holley'er (apologies to The Sound of Music).

We have been here before. But when Len Nin takes his peace in our time to the Tomato Grower in Chief and he throws his toys out of the BMW M3 it will be back to square one.

Still at least it will be bbq weather at Bedfont by then

[ottergirl]

* A binding independent review of disciplinaries to ensure fairness; and
* Measures to address concerns on earnings and lifestyle associated with the established changes in onboard crew numbers and the introduction of Mixed Fleet.

We already have these so it seems its only the staff travel issue. 18 months of heartache to end up where we started!

No mention of the original imposition that kicked it all off so what was the point in striking? All those crew have lost earnings and endured all that stress for nothing, nada, null; they should be furious!

Outstanding work BASSA reps! Time for an election so that your members can reward your brilliant negotiating skills!

[Betty girl]

It is his conciliatory style and manner that is different and a better way of working.

I am sure he will come out with, an outcome that WW will be happy with; I just personally feel he has a totally different style to WW and I personally feel it is a good change and for the better.

I have never agreed with the way Bassa have handled this dispute but I don't believe it was handled well by BA either.

I agree with Ottergirl that Bassa have gained nothing and in fact have lost a lot more than, had they negotiated in good faith in the first place.

I am however very hopeful by this announcement.

[JUAN TRIPP]

Bettygirl

I agree KW is a different character, but I truly feel that BA have had no choice in dealing with this dispute in the way they have. ANY slight weakness shown towards Bassa, would have been seized upon by DH and the rest of the reps IMO

[Watersidewonker]

So the circus rolls in and out of town this time the clowns have decided to meet our union which is what they should have done 2 years ago. I'm sure an offer of full staff travel will be a great gesture alas it will not please some sections of the workforce (no prizes offered ) So is light at the end of this dark tunnel anywhere near maybe is my answer. Those who were fooled about a fight for survival must be having kittens now but only time will tell. Keep the faith and come on Keep the faith Keith you may do what the little man couldn't find an end to this dispute and return the company back to normal.

[yotty]

Wonker, I suppose the question is just what you mean by "Normal" ?

[Rover90]

Just to highlight the 10 points

1. The immediate restoration of staff travel concessions, in full, to the crew from whom they were taken. .

2. Binding arbitration, through ACAS, of all cabin crew disciplinary cases related to the original dispute.

3. The restoration of all earnings docked from crew who were genuinely off sick during strike dates.

4. Full and proper discussion of the trade union facilities agreement at the company with the immediate removal of all threats and sanctions made by the company in relation to this.

5. The immediate cessation of actions taken against elected representatives of cabin crew, including; victimization; intimidation and exclusion.

6. The introduction of mixed fleet on different terms and conditions without agreement with the union.

7. The discrimination applied to union members in the allocation of part time contracts and transfers in breach of the Ops and Choice framework.

8. The company's continued and specific disregard for necessary union agreement in advance of any application of the disruption agreement.

9. The continued use of volunteer and/or temporary crew from outside the recognised NSP on both the Eurofleet and Worldwide fleets and their employment on terms and arrangements outside of existing agreements between BA and the union.

10. The company's offer of a separate pay settlement and variations to terms and conditions for those willing to accept non-negotiated changes to their contracts .

Items 1-5, 7, 9 and 10 were a direct result of failing to engage with Mr Walsh on cost savings and the subsequent industrial action that followed.

This is clearly a spectacular Southampton own goal, a double hat-trick +2 even.

Eight demands that are merely concerned with returning the status quo of 2009.

Items 6 and 8 have been slid past BASSA defenders whilst they were not engaging:

The introduction of mixed fleet on different terms and conditions without agreement with the union.

The company's continued and specific disregard for necessary union agreement in advance of any application of the disruption agreement.

As Ottergirl said:

All those crew have lost earnings and endured all that stress for nothing, nada, null; they should be furious!

[hula]

Those who were fooled about a fight for survival must be having kittens now but only time will tell

Er Why?

Those who didn't see the airline industry and ,infact, the entire economy, suffer the worst recession for years must have had their eyes shut and have been living in a bubble!!! Speak to anyone outside and inside of the airline industry and they will tell you of the struggle it has been.

Now we're faced with rising oil prices, increasing competition (who have money to throw at their products and services), rising taxes, civil unrest. All which directly affect the airline industry.

Only the people who saw the financial accounts of BA ( of which BASSA refused!!) can confidently say what state the company were in. Did you see them WSW? Or are you just believing everything BASSA tell you?

The fact is if we, as a community, were to stay on the outdated working practices, T & Cs and agreements that we have now then the company would slip way behind the competition. As a company we would have little money to invest in our product and aircraft. There would be no return to our shareholders and investors and slowly we would ebb away into non-existence.

The world is changing. The airline is changing (in every department). Surely WSW, you can see that ,to remain competitive, change has to happen and that it is sometimes hard to accept. Do you honestly believe we can stay the way we are, in this climate, and succeed as an airline?

[Wirbelsturm]

Hula,

Sadly I think you are wasting your time with reasoned argument. I'm not even sure WSW is actually crew, as the rhetoric posted is more along the lines of that espoused by the SWP.

Unfortunately many who believed the 13 years of Labour to be a panacea of good fail to comprehend that the Goverments mismanagement of the economy and their financial rape of savings, pensions and personal allowances have left Britain in the mess it is in today.

Reasoned argument falls on deaf ears in this case. Even the erstwhile leader of the Labour party refuses to acknowledge the failings of his predecessors and the Labour opposition policies, those that they have bothered to publish, would have us trailing on the heels of Portugal, Greece and Ireland without the Euro safety net.

Public sector is good, private sector is bad. The SWP in a nutshell. They are the driving force behind the Unions now. They are the rent a crowd for the pickets in the past where no-one from the dispute could be bothered to turn up. They are the placard publishers and the number boosters at the demonstrations and marches.

BASSA can no longer argue on the original points of the dispute as the company surviving has proven the effectiveness of the actions imposed against BASSA. Now they have to campaign on whatever gets whispered into their ears by their paymasters.

Cohesive, adult, sensible negotiation? Between BA and Unite, possibly. Unite and BASSA? Not a hope.

[Noonday Gunn]

Those who were fooled about a fight for survival must be having kittens now

I would say that those who were told that "staff travel will be back in 5 minutes" will be just about ready to lay an egg by now. No return to previous crewing levels, no end to mixed fleet, and no hope of return for the sacked. What was the point again? The minute BASSA made the staff travel claim they threw everything else to the wind. From that moment on the whole dispute became centred on staff travel and nothing else. Send in the clowns.

[Ancient Observer]

.....er, sorry about this, but Noonday Gunn posted 4 minutes late...........
That wouldn't have happened if the Brits were still running HK

[MrBernoulli]

BASSA's list of 'demands' is just pissing in the wind. The dispute is over. Finished. That much was obvious when BASSA and Unite knew they didn't have a legal leg to stand on, consequently they daren't actually declare strike dates. If they are daft enough to do so, any strike is unprotected, and that has dawned, very slowly, on their members: strike = best chance of dismissal. The militant tendency wouldn't dare strike now. All noise and no substance.

BA agreeing to extend BASSA's little window of comfort by 28 days just moves any theoretical strike past Easter and the Royal Wedding. BA did that for BA's benefit, not BASSA's. Coincidentally, it allows more time for Unite's Len to slowly break the news to the 'faithfull' that it is all over.

The dinosaurs have been comprehensively outmanoeuvred.

BA 10 - BASSA 0
or, alternatively
BA 10 - DH minus 3

[Noonday Gunn]

Quite right Ancient Observer!

[Betty girl]

I have to say that both sides have changed their approach, not just Bassa and this is a very welcome change, for someone like me, that just wants to get on with doing a good job of looking after our passengers.

This phrase, from the joint statement, sums up how both sides are aware that they both need to amend their stance, and makes me very hopeful.

''To achieve such a peace, it is understood by British Airways that cabin crew must feel that their concerns are being fairly dealt with, and it is recognised by the union that that the management and acceptance of change is the key to lasting peace.''

I know that many of you feel that KW is just like WW but from my perspective they are totally different and this dispute is being handled in a totally different way now, to the way it was handled by WW.

I am very pleased with our new CEO.

[Litebulbs]

Betty

I read it the same way. No doubt there will be a few posters who want to flag wave on the destruction of Bassa, for whatever motive, but life will go on.

More and more employees will start to see that the job is not a way of life, but where you come in, do your bit, then go home and you will see more of that when the workforce becomes more transient. There will be no mutually beneficial need for the business to succeed or fail, as there will be plenty of other jobs out there paying the same salary, either market rate or minimum wage.

Obviously this gives a huge saving in labour cost, but what will be interesting to see, is if the product varies over time. I have my views on what I see when I compare scheduled to charter and loco's as a passenger, but I very rarely fly in anything other than the main cabin. Time will tell on how selective the recruitment process will be or if any standard of recruitment will change. The only feedback I have seen on these new crew, has been positive, but that is just from reading on here and elsewhere on the net.

[Yellow Pen]

Originally Posted by BG

To achieve such a peace, it is understood by British Airways that cabin crew must feel that their concerns are being fairly dealt with, and it is recognised by the union that that the management and acceptance of change is the key to lasting peace.

However WW and BF were saying the same thing months ago. BF has bent over backwards to try to deal with the concerns of existing crew. The barrier in all this has not been WW (you'll recall he struck a deal with TW) but BASSAs demonising of WW. BASSA simply could not countenance any deal with Walsh short of a complete capitulation by BA. KW isn't doing anything differently from WW but the simple fact that he is a new face provides BASSA with an opportunity for a climb down, one which I suspect is likely to be enforced soon!

Originally Posted by Litebulbs

More and more employees will start to see that the job is not a way of life, but where you come in, do your bit, then go home and you will see more of that when the workforce becomes more transient.

The problem now is that we have lots of crew who do simply come in, do their bit (grudgingly) then go home but they're are on legacy T&Cs. It really isn't as simple as correlating pay to commitment.

There will be no mutually beneficial need for the business to succeed or fail, as there will be plenty of other jobs out there paying the same salary, either market rate or minimum wage. Obviously this gives a huge saving in labour cost, but what will be interesting to see, is if the product varies over time. I have my views on what I see when I compare scheduled to charter and loco's as a passenger, but I very rarely fly in anything other than the main cabin.

Do you fly Thomson much? I've been doing a fair bit with them recently and have been very impressed with their standards. The service levels exceed that which I've been accustomed to in BAs economy cabins and I've no doubt given the opportunity they could give out existing crew a run for their money in the premium cabins too.

[Betty girl]

Yellow pen,
I am not hear to defend Bassa but as I have always said, the agreement that the union had to sign, was not at all the same as the individual agreement, that I was able to sign.

In a small nutshell, the last agreement, forced Bassa to come to an agreement within 8 weeks about how they and BA worked together or BA would cancel the facilities agreement completely.
It also had a stipulation that no aggrieved person could resort to any legal remedy if they felt their dismissal was unfair.

These, I believe, were in actual fact, the main sticking points that have really been the reason for both Bassa and Amicus, not wanting to accept the last offer.

I find that many people on hear try and simplify things far too much. This is a complicated dispute and I personally believe that there have been mistakes on both sides.

I can now see that KW is handling this in a VERY different way and that is to be applauded. He is nothing like WW and has been visiting the CRC and speaking personally with cabin crew and really trying to understand ALL our fears. For no matter whether you striked or did not strike, all of us are unhappy with how Mixed Fleet has been brought in and ALL of us have some fear over the future of our jobs. KW is addressing these fears and working in a far more productive manner to bring ALL cabin crew with him and I think he will succeed.

I believe that there will be a change in the way Bassa and BA do business but it will have been brought about by KW's approach to reasoned negotiation and not threats etc. as previously used by WW.

[Snas]

It also had a stipulation that no aggrieved person could resort to any legal remedy if they felt their dismissal was unfair.

That’s not quite correct, a person always has the option to pursue a legal remedy, the agreement to which you refer required the union to cease all legal approaches.

This is normal for settlements, it is after all a settlement, no point offering it if the other party carries on taking you to court.

The rest of your position I agree with generally, potential progress is more than has been achieved so far after all. Let us hope for a good (as possible) result soon eh.

[jetset lady]

Well this is very welcome news.

No. It's not. Who are we trying to kid. Let's face it, nothing has really changed. EF and WW still have most of their agreements plus the top up payment at LHR for those that wanted it. We at Gatwick trundle on in the background as usual. And MF are trying to find their feet in amongst all of the hand-wringing and angst from some over their salary/rosters. The very same salary/rosters that make the above possible!

Meanwhile, the company seem to be more worried about appearing in the media as a "caring, sharing" employer than they are about actually standing up to this mess of a union and saying enough! Yes, the majority of our passengers that frequent this and other aviation forums seem, generally, unconcerned about the never ending threat of disruption but your average person in the street, booking their 2 weeks in the sun is obviously and understandably, going to think twice.

Surely I can't be the only person the is thoroughly and totally fed up with this? Come on Unite. Your members have told you that they want to strike. So do it. Call the dates. No more extensions. No more ballots. No more "talk". They want to strike, so let them!

I read it the same way. No doubt there will be a few posters who want to flag wave on the destruction of Bassa, for whatever motive, but life will go on.

Sorry, Litebulbs. I guess that'll be me then. I don't want to see the destruction of the union but I would like BA to stop providing get out clauses and make them follow through on their threats and take the consequences of their actions. Maybe I'm wrong. I often am. But this particular dispute has been going on for over 2 years.....

[Betty girl]

Snas,
It went a bit further than that, this is an extract from the version that the union had to agree to.

''Certain employees who have been dismissed and who have already exhausted the appeal process, whose name appears in the confidential annex to this agreement (a ‘Processed Employee’) or ‘Relevant Employees’ who refuse to compromise any dispute related claims will still have the option of having their claim dealt with under the ACAS arbitration scheme, but British Airways reserves its right not to comply with a reinstatement / re-engagement order for such employees, if one is made.''

''Therefore it is British Airways position that the offer is made on the basis that it is conditional on there being no breach of contract claims from employees that are directly or indirectly connected with the dispute or the subsequent industrial action. If following acceptance of the offer an employee pursues a breach of contract claim or continues to pursue such a claim, despite the terms of this offer, British Airways may withdraw the benefits set out in the offer and withdraw non contractual and discretionary staff travel from the employee who has pursued or intends to pursue that claim.''

I am not saying that the above is wrong, I am just saying that those sacked Bassa reps would hardly want to accept this and see it as fair.

Anyway, I do understand what you are saying and I am sure the new agreement will also ask for the union to not take legal action, but I would bet it is worded in a different manner to the above extracts!! As you know I am not a fan of Bassa but I can understand why they were unhappy with these clauses.

Jetset lady,
Unfortunately you come accross as being a bit bitter.

I don't apologise for wanting Mixed Fleet crew to have workable roster and a decent living and I don't follow why wanting to keep my terms and conditions means that they can't have a reasonable salary as promised by BA, market rate plus 10%.

You are always saying, how no one at LHR cared about LGW, which terms you all, by the way, voted to accept; but when someone actually does care about the terms and conditions of Mixed Fleet, you choose to criticize them.