BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Perhaps someone needs to point out that, at the end of the day, BA are protecting both those who could have been misled by their Union into taking catastrophic unprotected industrial action and their parent Union who, at worst, could have been liable for loss of earnings and costs to BA.
In some respects BA are doing Unites job in ensuring that a Ballot is achieved coreectly and thus protects workers. Len seems to think that BA is 'bullying' but, if the ballot was so full of holes, then Unite would have been negligent in alowing its members to take action that would have almost certainly cost them their jobs. Len would be fineon his £90,000 plus though. The loss of a few members subscriptions could be found elsewhere I'm sure.
As to languages, I seem to remember that CC got paid extra for each language so the 'pay back' for that was achieved. Its also not so unusal to speak another language, I speak three, two fluently and one to a high standard but not quite fluent. My better half speaks five fluently and another 3 to a very high standard. What difference does that make? None.
If a job becomes a career is dependant upon the employer in many respects. If the employer sees that low cost, high turnover is more viable than retention, retraining, pension and benefits then the position goes from one of a long term career to a job with a high personell turnover. It could, in all possiblities, occur to any department within BA.
No-one has tried to take the CC jobs or even their money. The company wanted rationalisation and cost savings. The head of IFcE was well aware of the rumblings of columbus and was prepared to shelve it in exchange for lucid, sensible negotiated cost savings. BASSA refused to negotiate, they refused to sit in one room and talk, they refused to sit in a room with your fellow colleagues Union members, they refused to discuss Mixed Fleet, they refused to see the confidential figures, they refused to believe the finacial position of the company, they refused to believe a fully independant fincial assessment. You want someone to blame? Blame your BASSA board who have done the only thing they kow how to do. Scream no until IA and then get what they want. Only this time it hasn't worked.
In some respects BA are doing Unites job in ensuring that a Ballot is achieved coreectly and thus protects workers. Len seems to think that BA is 'bullying' but, if the ballot was so full of holes, then Unite would have been negligent in alowing its members to take action that would have almost certainly cost them their jobs. Len would be fineon his £90,000 plus though. The loss of a few members subscriptions could be found elsewhere I'm sure.
As to languages, I seem to remember that CC got paid extra for each language so the 'pay back' for that was achieved. Its also not so unusal to speak another language, I speak three, two fluently and one to a high standard but not quite fluent. My better half speaks five fluently and another 3 to a very high standard. What difference does that make? None.
If a job becomes a career is dependant upon the employer in many respects. If the employer sees that low cost, high turnover is more viable than retention, retraining, pension and benefits then the position goes from one of a long term career to a job with a high personell turnover. It could, in all possiblities, occur to any department within BA.
No-one has tried to take the CC jobs or even their money. The company wanted rationalisation and cost savings. The head of IFcE was well aware of the rumblings of columbus and was prepared to shelve it in exchange for lucid, sensible negotiated cost savings. BASSA refused to negotiate, they refused to sit in one room and talk, they refused to sit in a room with your fellow colleagues Union members, they refused to discuss Mixed Fleet, they refused to see the confidential figures, they refused to believe the finacial position of the company, they refused to believe a fully independant fincial assessment. You want someone to blame? Blame your BASSA board who have done the only thing they kow how to do. Scream no until IA and then get what they want. Only this time it hasn't worked.
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“A large number of CC have looked at the situation they are in and have decided, that despite their high principles, their families come first (call it common sense if you like).”
I would just like to add that, for many cabin crew, the decision to come to work and resign from Bassa, was not despite our high principles – it was BECAUSE of them.
I would just like to add that, for many cabin crew, the decision to come to work and resign from Bassa, was not despite our high principles – it was BECAUSE of them.
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I've a previous role I worked with 7 unions recognised by my then employer. My current employer recognises 3 different ones. I've worked with reps from the 10 and I've never, repeat never seen such a poor relationship between management and a Union. It really doesn't help that WW and DH are villified and demonised, whilst this continues there will be no mutually positive outcome to this dispute. I've read this thread and never posted, however I've discussed it with fellow HR managers, ACAS staff and a PCS Union rep. We've all shook our heads in disbelief at the poor way this has been handled by BASSA i.e. ripping up the facilities agreement, not turning up for work, Membership lists not being updated, poorly exceuted ballots, potentially unprotected IA, etc etc and generally it appears not being willing to work towards mutuality (win-win). I'm not taking sides merely commenting, however BA defintely have the upper hand and if they lose I'll be utterly amazed.
On the DH employment tribunal, I've had some legal training and I'm not aware of one case where a Employment Tribunal, Employment Appeal Tribunal or CA has ruled that a dismissed employee should be re-employed. However if its correct that BASSA will keep DH as their leader until all legal avenues are exhausted, then expect the case to go from ET to EAT, to the Court of Appeal to the ECHR, in which case he'll be Branch Secretary for some considerable time.... Even if the ET finds he was unlawfully dismissed compensation payments are capped at an ET/EAT at around £65K, unless a claim for discrimination has been made. So if DH wins BA won't have to re-employ him, however potentially they'll have to pay out up to £65K, it might be worth them losing the ET on a technicality and paying out up to 65K just to conclude the case and therefore potentially remove him as Branch Sec.
All in all it does not look good for BASSA or BA
On the DH employment tribunal, I've had some legal training and I'm not aware of one case where a Employment Tribunal, Employment Appeal Tribunal or CA has ruled that a dismissed employee should be re-employed. However if its correct that BASSA will keep DH as their leader until all legal avenues are exhausted, then expect the case to go from ET to EAT, to the Court of Appeal to the ECHR, in which case he'll be Branch Secretary for some considerable time.... Even if the ET finds he was unlawfully dismissed compensation payments are capped at an ET/EAT at around £65K, unless a claim for discrimination has been made. So if DH wins BA won't have to re-employ him, however potentially they'll have to pay out up to £65K, it might be worth them losing the ET on a technicality and paying out up to 65K just to conclude the case and therefore potentially remove him as Branch Sec.
All in all it does not look good for BASSA or BA
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MissyMinx
I would just like to add that, for many cabin crew, the decision to come to work and resign from Bassa, was not despite our high principles – it was BECAUSE of them.
Last edited by keel beam; 9th Feb 2011 at 10:47.
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Originally Posted by Dave3
Again BA have chosen to go to court rather than settle this round a table so please no one tell me this is not about Union busting
You can bet your Strike Pay that BA would rather settle things round a table - nobody will be enjoying the legal bill associated with bringing this debacle before a judge - but they don't really have that option when trying to negotiate with those who won't negotiate.
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I moved this posting as I feel that we have to fight psychological warfare by the company with our own,
I was trying to think of an example of the psychological advantage created for one group over another. If say, we all started referring to ourselves as First Fleet, by we I mean WW, short haul, EF, as we were created first. Then any other fleet created after us would as a matter of fact be Second Fleet. As it was created second. The psychological image of "First Fleet", is the best, the winners, number one, as that is what the word First means to people. What people associate with the word second, is of something not quite as good, a loser, as that is what the word second creates in peoples minds. So if you always referred to yourselves as first fleet, for that is exactly what you are ( created first ) that promotes a mental picture of the best. Winners. Second fleet are exactly that ( created second ) and give a mental picture of,------- well you get the picture. So any one can use this type of one upmanship without wearing hats. Be the best, join First Fleet.
I was trying to think of an example of the psychological advantage created for one group over another. If say, we all started referring to ourselves as First Fleet, by we I mean WW, short haul, EF, as we were created first. Then any other fleet created after us would as a matter of fact be Second Fleet. As it was created second. The psychological image of "First Fleet", is the best, the winners, number one, as that is what the word First means to people. What people associate with the word second, is of something not quite as good, a loser, as that is what the word second creates in peoples minds. So if you always referred to yourselves as first fleet, for that is exactly what you are ( created first ) that promotes a mental picture of the best. Winners. Second fleet are exactly that ( created second ) and give a mental picture of,------- well you get the picture. So any one can use this type of one upmanship without wearing hats. Be the best, join First Fleet.
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That's one of the most hilarious things I've ever read....
Their delusion knows no bounds.
A psychological advantage (which they won't achieve by calling themselves First Fleet, anyway) won't pay the rent.
Their delusion knows no bounds.
A psychological advantage (which they won't achieve by calling themselves First Fleet, anyway) won't pay the rent.
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Eddy
A psychological advantage (which they won't achieve by calling themselves First Fleet, anyway) won't pay the rent.
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But the above is to me delutional, pathetic and sad.
If this is truly typical of the mindset of strikers, I can see this dragging on and on. I thought this would be concluded by attrition, because, sadly negotiation is something that is simply beyond BASSA. So here we are, the minority hacking off the majority, and, seeing once again, total intransigence from the BASSA followers.
I despair!
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This from BA ...
I am sure you will have heard that Unite cannot announce strike dates on the back of its recent ballot.
Perhaps inevitably, Unite has tried to mask the fact that it did not run a proper ballot by attacking the company.
The fact is it is up to Unite to conduct industrial action ballots in a lawful manner and it didn’t do this.
The good news is we can reassure our customers that the immediate threat of strikes is over and we can further strengthen our strike contingency plans. These are already robust enough for us to fly 100 per cent of our long haul operation.
The bad news is that Unite intends to ballot again.
For most of us, the time has come to move forward. There are exciting times ahead with a renewed focus on our customers and investment in products and services that you can be proud of. In IFCE, we have made the cost savings we need and there’s a real opportunity for investment in you.
For those of you who have signed up to the individual offer, the two-year pay deal begins this month and your pay rise will be in your February pay.
I want that for all of you but Unite is standing in the way by not signing the offer that is still available.
Despite what you may have heard, we have been, and remain, ready to meet with Unite. I hope Unite will pause and reflect. Strike action has achieved nothing during the past two years, and it is casting an unnecessary shadow over what could truly be an exciting chapter for all of us.
Thank you for your continued commitment. If you are in the crew report centre at either Heathrow or Gatwick please come and talk with us. The sooner we can all work as one team to serve our customers the better.
I am sure you will have heard that Unite cannot announce strike dates on the back of its recent ballot.
Perhaps inevitably, Unite has tried to mask the fact that it did not run a proper ballot by attacking the company.
The fact is it is up to Unite to conduct industrial action ballots in a lawful manner and it didn’t do this.
The good news is we can reassure our customers that the immediate threat of strikes is over and we can further strengthen our strike contingency plans. These are already robust enough for us to fly 100 per cent of our long haul operation.
The bad news is that Unite intends to ballot again.
For most of us, the time has come to move forward. There are exciting times ahead with a renewed focus on our customers and investment in products and services that you can be proud of. In IFCE, we have made the cost savings we need and there’s a real opportunity for investment in you.
For those of you who have signed up to the individual offer, the two-year pay deal begins this month and your pay rise will be in your February pay.
I want that for all of you but Unite is standing in the way by not signing the offer that is still available.
Despite what you may have heard, we have been, and remain, ready to meet with Unite. I hope Unite will pause and reflect. Strike action has achieved nothing during the past two years, and it is casting an unnecessary shadow over what could truly be an exciting chapter for all of us.
Thank you for your continued commitment. If you are in the crew report centre at either Heathrow or Gatwick please come and talk with us. The sooner we can all work as one team to serve our customers the better.
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MrB
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Manipulating work patterns
Bassa reps choose their trips, and can drop any they don't want - to then replace with any good trips available. Why would they want a fair and equitable system for all crew?
BA have a standing instruction BASI 6 that is there to deal with fraud and misuse of systems etc.
If you can prove reps manipulate their rosters to someone else's detriment have a read.
Only available from a BA office, I think.
DW
BA have a standing instruction BASI 6 that is there to deal with fraud and misuse of systems etc.
If you can prove reps manipulate their rosters to someone else's detriment have a read.
Only available from a BA office, I think.
DW
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The psychological image of "First Fleet", is the best, the winners, number one, as that is what the word First means to people. What people associate with the word second, is of something not quite as good, a loser
1) They need to work, and
2) There are no better terms available, BA will never again employ crew on the 'legacy' crew terms.
Now the crew who have lost nothing turn their hatred on those who have had to accept reduced terms.
Charming. As Len said:
Over the past 18 months I have witnessed your dignity
Bassa reps choose their trips, and can drop any they don't want - to then replace with any good trips available. Why would they want a fair and equitable system for all crew?
BA have a standing instruction BASI 6 that is there to deal with fraud and misuse of systems etc.
If you can prove reps manipulate their rosters to someone else's detriment have a read.
Only available from a BA office, I think.
DW
BA have a standing instruction BASI 6 that is there to deal with fraud and misuse of systems etc.
If you can prove reps manipulate their rosters to someone else's detriment have a read.
Only available from a BA office, I think.
DW
The reps slid under the wire and lived to do another SIN, NRT
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UNTIE advert in tomorrows papers...
GOING NOWHERE Class? Comfort? Cost? Or confrontation? Our members want you to always think positively about BA. They care passionately about caring for you.
Thats why they called a 12 day strike at Christmas to screw you over, and why they want to target your school holidays.
But three times in the past two years they have voted overwhelmingly to take industrial action at the airline. How could this happen at a once-great British brand?
Because they can't add up the number of members they have and hold a legal ballot.
These are the same courteous, professional people that take care of passengers and help you choose to fly with BA. Other airlines are proud of their cabin crew. They choose them to be their public face.
Not Virgin, who use models in their adverts. BA's adverts always feature the BA amabassadors, real life BA employees.
Not BA. It is now better known for industrial confrontation than for passenger comfort. What a turnaround for what was once the "world's favourite airline".
I doubt the customer surveys would agree with that.
Unite cabin crew members at BA are mainly female, working mums.
I doubt the People departments statisticians would agree with that.
They are proud of their airline and proud of the qualities that make it admired the world over. The vast majority will dedicate 25 years or more service to the airline. Many will never earn more than £25k per annum for skills that stretch from life saver to linguist.
Many hate the airline and everything it stands for, and hate their colleagues too. Many will work for 25 years, earning far more than £25K, simply because they cannot find such a well paying job elsewhere.
In return, they expect respect. They are the professional, friendly people that make BA what it was – a world class brand.
Lots of things made BA a world class brand, not just cabin crew.
They will also not tolerate bullying. That is why they are standing up against the sacking of 18 cabin crew and disciplining of scores more as BA exacts revenge on the thousands of crew who took lawful industrial action last year.
Sacked for assault, making death threats, harassment, vandalism, absenteeism outside industrial action, interference with investigations, redirecting commercial web traffic to gay porn, and other things.
Bullying, intimidation, legal threats – anything but listening to their own employees from BA's lawyer-led management.
They've listened repeatedly, but they won't give in to BASSAs demands, which is what Unites real problem is.
That is what stands in he way of peace at BA – a board that prefers litigation to negotiation.
A board that will litigate when the union won't negotiate.
Two years ago, a battle over standards at the airline began; it was never about money.
So it's all about the customer then?
Indeed it could still be solved without costing BA a penny. But it will never be solved by bullying. As many times as BA force us to reballot our members, we will do so. The spirit of BA cabin crew will never be broken.
And we'll ballot and ballot and ballot until we are sick! (But we'll never mount an effective strike).
Thats why they called a 12 day strike at Christmas to screw you over, and why they want to target your school holidays.
But three times in the past two years they have voted overwhelmingly to take industrial action at the airline. How could this happen at a once-great British brand?
Because they can't add up the number of members they have and hold a legal ballot.
These are the same courteous, professional people that take care of passengers and help you choose to fly with BA. Other airlines are proud of their cabin crew. They choose them to be their public face.
Not Virgin, who use models in their adverts. BA's adverts always feature the BA amabassadors, real life BA employees.
Not BA. It is now better known for industrial confrontation than for passenger comfort. What a turnaround for what was once the "world's favourite airline".
I doubt the customer surveys would agree with that.
Unite cabin crew members at BA are mainly female, working mums.
I doubt the People departments statisticians would agree with that.
They are proud of their airline and proud of the qualities that make it admired the world over. The vast majority will dedicate 25 years or more service to the airline. Many will never earn more than £25k per annum for skills that stretch from life saver to linguist.
Many hate the airline and everything it stands for, and hate their colleagues too. Many will work for 25 years, earning far more than £25K, simply because they cannot find such a well paying job elsewhere.
In return, they expect respect. They are the professional, friendly people that make BA what it was – a world class brand.
Lots of things made BA a world class brand, not just cabin crew.
They will also not tolerate bullying. That is why they are standing up against the sacking of 18 cabin crew and disciplining of scores more as BA exacts revenge on the thousands of crew who took lawful industrial action last year.
Sacked for assault, making death threats, harassment, vandalism, absenteeism outside industrial action, interference with investigations, redirecting commercial web traffic to gay porn, and other things.
Bullying, intimidation, legal threats – anything but listening to their own employees from BA's lawyer-led management.
They've listened repeatedly, but they won't give in to BASSAs demands, which is what Unites real problem is.
That is what stands in he way of peace at BA – a board that prefers litigation to negotiation.
A board that will litigate when the union won't negotiate.
Two years ago, a battle over standards at the airline began; it was never about money.
So it's all about the customer then?
Indeed it could still be solved without costing BA a penny. But it will never be solved by bullying. As many times as BA force us to reballot our members, we will do so. The spirit of BA cabin crew will never be broken.
And we'll ballot and ballot and ballot until we are sick! (But we'll never mount an effective strike).
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How much more of their members money are they going to waste on ridiculous ads in papers that the public just see as a desperate attempt to win favour? The last 'Brutish Airways' campaign was a complete disaster if it's purpose was to 'enlighten' the good british public, because they still think that BA cabin crew are a bunch of self serving, greedy waiters/waitresses and this desperate inaccurate rubbish will only cement those beliefs with the public and media.
I'm a little bit sick of being tarred with the same brush as these militants. This ad is written as though it's the 'voice' of all BA crew not a small majority who have backed themselves into a corner and now have nowhere to turn.....but sadly everyone has had enough and nobody is listening anymore.
Personally, I think BA this week have offered the strikers a lifeline as their Union could have once again got them sacked. This IMO was an opportunity missed. BA should have let them strike and then offered them the choice to sign the deal or leave as they had been unprotected? Now the saga continues, but then theres always the next ballot I guess because as sure as day follows night that too will be ILLEGAL.
I'm a little bit sick of being tarred with the same brush as these militants. This ad is written as though it's the 'voice' of all BA crew not a small majority who have backed themselves into a corner and now have nowhere to turn.....but sadly everyone has had enough and nobody is listening anymore.
Personally, I think BA this week have offered the strikers a lifeline as their Union could have once again got them sacked. This IMO was an opportunity missed. BA should have let them strike and then offered them the choice to sign the deal or leave as they had been unprotected? Now the saga continues, but then theres always the next ballot I guess because as sure as day follows night that too will be ILLEGAL.
