BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Dave 3
would also like to see the books of BA that claimed we were in financial trouble.. please dont play the moral high ground that you are a loyal subject..
Shame because I believe that had Bassa been more professional and negotiated properly all along, then the outcome for cabin crew might have been a lot more positive.
(and I say this as cabin crew, not a pilot)
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Dave 3
I honestly do admire you, and this is not a p**s take. During my time as crew before I moved onto ground work I met several people like you.
Your stance however is not only misinformed, hopeless and ultimately doomed but being led by union leaders who have now painted themselves into such a corner that theirs is one where there is no other way than to lash out and blame anyone but themselves.
Pause a moment and just think, are all those ground staff, pilots and opposing views completely wrong? Finally and please don't take this insultingly but you really never do answer direct questions, merely spout socialist jargon.
I honestly do admire you, and this is not a p**s take. During my time as crew before I moved onto ground work I met several people like you.
Your stance however is not only misinformed, hopeless and ultimately doomed but being led by union leaders who have now painted themselves into such a corner that theirs is one where there is no other way than to lash out and blame anyone but themselves.
Pause a moment and just think, are all those ground staff, pilots and opposing views completely wrong? Finally and please don't take this insultingly but you really never do answer direct questions, merely spout socialist jargon.
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Dave
The only reason the company are back in profit is due to the hard work and talent of the management team you and other BASSA mentalists constantly deride.
During the worst recession know to this airline every department did their bit to help weather the storm - management included.
How many times I have heard the longterm crew moan about the falling quality of food and service and how the airline is going to the dogs!! That just shows at a base level why you do what you do and others pull the strings. Simple logic - if your company is losing £1 million a day you need to cut costs. By reducing crewing levels and adjusting service - food etc they have managed that and yet maintained high load factors - i.e. not scared off the paying public.
It is only due to the longevity of this dispute that coincidentally the airline is back in profit - no thanks to you and BASSA crazies at all - just everyone else involved in the airline instead. So excuse us all that we dont take your line of - all is ok now so why does the company not just do what we ask!
Ask yourself why the majority - the rest of the company and the public all think you are wrong and even amongst the Cabin Crew you are a minority with your stance - yet you continue to utter such garbage as I will strike strike strike strike etc. Just leave and get a job elsewhere.
The only reason the company are back in profit is due to the hard work and talent of the management team you and other BASSA mentalists constantly deride.
During the worst recession know to this airline every department did their bit to help weather the storm - management included.
How many times I have heard the longterm crew moan about the falling quality of food and service and how the airline is going to the dogs!! That just shows at a base level why you do what you do and others pull the strings. Simple logic - if your company is losing £1 million a day you need to cut costs. By reducing crewing levels and adjusting service - food etc they have managed that and yet maintained high load factors - i.e. not scared off the paying public.
It is only due to the longevity of this dispute that coincidentally the airline is back in profit - no thanks to you and BASSA crazies at all - just everyone else involved in the airline instead. So excuse us all that we dont take your line of - all is ok now so why does the company not just do what we ask!
Ask yourself why the majority - the rest of the company and the public all think you are wrong and even amongst the Cabin Crew you are a minority with your stance - yet you continue to utter such garbage as I will strike strike strike strike etc. Just leave and get a job elsewhere.
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PC767
There are some VCC on here.
Question; were the allowances you received/receive the same as new cabin crew recruits into BA, or the same as the 'legacy' crew allowances, which the company seeks to remove and replace?
Genuine enquiry, I don't know the answer.
Question; were the allowances you received/receive the same as new cabin crew recruits into BA, or the same as the 'legacy' crew allowances, which the company seeks to remove and replace?
Genuine enquiry, I don't know the answer.
I really don't know what to say anymore about all this. Its totally beyond comprehension. The fact that the statement is written by a man in charge of an organisation representing 1.5 million workers and is paid a 6 figure sum is quite the most unbelievable thing I've ever read in the 'work' enviroment. I'm afraid BA must surely next time let them strike ( as is their right) declare it illegal, and dismiss the strikers. It would put us all of of this pathetic misery for ever
VCtenderness wrote
The only pockets being lined in this dispute are those of DH and a bunch of lawyers.
Go to the next BASSA meeting and ask for the accounts, ask that they be placed (as they should under rule) on the top table and all members invited to inspect them at the end of the meeting. Ask for the branch auditors names and if they are present ask them to verify the accounts.
Ask what else do the reps get paid or paid for.
Then come here and tell us that all is well and that the only pockets that have been lined are those of loyal BA staff who want to keep their jobs!!!
Go to the next BASSA meeting and ask for the accounts, ask that they be placed (as they should under rule) on the top table and all members invited to inspect them at the end of the meeting. Ask for the branch auditors names and if they are present ask them to verify the accounts.
Ask what else do the reps get paid or paid for.
Then come here and tell us that all is well and that the only pockets that have been lined are those of loyal BA staff who want to keep their jobs!!!
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Dave3
I don't suppose you'd care to clarify the point about cabin crew terms and conditions I was asking about?
You started by saying they were 'un-defeated as they still had their terms and conditions', yet had been on strike over 'impositions' which, as I understand it, changed those very terms and conditions.
So, are you right, and the strike was for nothing, or are you wrong and the crew have been defeated?
I don't suppose you'd care to clarify the point about cabin crew terms and conditions I was asking about?
You started by saying they were 'un-defeated as they still had their terms and conditions', yet had been on strike over 'impositions' which, as I understand it, changed those very terms and conditions.
So, are you right, and the strike was for nothing, or are you wrong and the crew have been defeated?
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CHIGLEY if you read my posts you well read that I have read all the ess and letters from the company. Im sorry to disapoint you but being in bassa does not make you blind. I am well aware of all the communications from both sides and even spoke to Mr Walsh about the dispute and listened to his version.
You have chosen to label us all as blinkered..sorry again to disapoint it is the members that are driving this the whole way with a great set of reps along side us.
Autobrake Low
I have not derided any management I have spoken to them directly and chosen not to take on board the spin..
Think about other departments that went on strike when they had no ballot think about other departments that are/have sued BA for holiday pay that they felt was owed.. lets not rest this all on the cabin crew.
You have chosen to label us all as blinkered..sorry again to disapoint it is the members that are driving this the whole way with a great set of reps along side us.
Autobrake Low
I have not derided any management I have spoken to them directly and chosen not to take on board the spin..
Think about other departments that went on strike when they had no ballot think about other departments that are/have sued BA for holiday pay that they felt was owed.. lets not rest this all on the cabin crew.
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Spn I still hold a contract of employment with in that contain points of that employment. I still feel that an imposition took place with the removal of crew from the aircraft. I also along with thousands of crew feel that staff travel is an implied contract of my employment with out being a employee of British Airways and holding a contract with them I would not have been able to use the said staff travel.
I am from a base closure and indeed that staff travel was given to me under my base closure contract as part of my base closure. I have a contract that states I have the right to be part of a union yet my employer at ever cost is doing everything they can not to recognise my union even closing the offices down of that union that have been part of cabin crew for many many years.
I am from a base closure and indeed that staff travel was given to me under my base closure contract as part of my base closure. I have a contract that states I have the right to be part of a union yet my employer at ever cost is doing everything they can not to recognise my union even closing the offices down of that union that have been part of cabin crew for many many years.
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BA's comment on ballot
Unite knew more than three weeks ago that this ballot lacked legal validity. It chose to hide this fact from its members, opting instead for rhetoric about industrial action it knew could not happen.
Only Unite wants to continue this dispute. We shook hands on a deal last October but Unite reneged on it. The union does not have the support of the majority of our crew and it has lost 2,500 crew members since the dispute began.”
There have been enough ballots. It is time for Unite to return to the deal we negotiated, which leaves our existing Heathrow crew the best rewarded in the UK industry, and to put this dispute behind us.
Only Unite wants to continue this dispute. We shook hands on a deal last October but Unite reneged on it. The union does not have the support of the majority of our crew and it has lost 2,500 crew members since the dispute began.”
There have been enough ballots. It is time for Unite to return to the deal we negotiated, which leaves our existing Heathrow crew the best rewarded in the UK industry, and to put this dispute behind us.
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dave3,
Thanks for the reply. I think it's fair to say that crew have had their working conditions changed by BA, so perhaps it would be better to admit that rather than trying to claim you are winning the fight and have not suffered defeats.
On reflection I think:
might have been a tad optimistic.
Thanks for the reply. I think it's fair to say that crew have had their working conditions changed by BA, so perhaps it would be better to admit that rather than trying to claim you are winning the fight and have not suffered defeats.
On reflection I think:
still there and still on their terms and conditions 2 years later..
none of them have signed a new contract... I wouldnt call that defeated!!!
none of them have signed a new contract... I wouldnt call that defeated!!!
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Spin respect your view.. I will stick to mine.. we are not defeated you only need to see as im sure some of you have already the bassa forum.. I suppose it depends on what you class a s defeat.. signing a new deal before the old one is dead and buried??
We are all still holding our heads high. we have done nothing dishonest only what is our right as workers in the UK .. the right to take part in Legal Industrial Action.
Again BA have chosen to go to court rather than settle this round a table so please no one tell me this is not about Union busting
We are all still holding our heads high. we have done nothing dishonest only what is our right as workers in the UK .. the right to take part in Legal Industrial Action.
Again BA have chosen to go to court rather than settle this round a table so please no one tell me this is not about Union busting
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Dave
This process has drawn on for too long now - at every twist and turn your union have failed. Other departments have their disputes granted - but none that are so unjust and have proved to be so at all levels of judiciary in this land!!!!
The pilots dispute over Openskies was a losing case in the courts - thus it was abandoned and BA scored a win on that.
Your union however has some king of mentally deranged lemming tendency - closer and closer to the cliff edge. However the threat to everyone in BA was that you would drag us all over with you.
Your cause is seen as wholly unjust by everyone but the minority of you in the Cabin Crew - can you not look at yourselves and ask why??
For years you have have enjoyed over inflated terms and conditions and pay for doing a very comfortable job - travelling the world - 5 star hotels - all the cheap shopping etc. Granted there is hard work within a narrow time framework but its not exactly 9am-5pm on the bins is it?? And you get more pay! When the worst recession hits, your department was not even asked for a pay cut - just one off the aircraft which was easily met by those wanting VR. Was that so hard to bear looking back now?? Can you honestly say that it was such an outrageous demand?
The only reason it was imposed on you was because your dysfunctional union arrangements meant negotiation failed after some 9 months!!!! That was FACT from the court ruling - it was proved to be legally within BA's rights to impose the one down crewing - how can you justify your stand on that fact alone??
This process has drawn on for too long now - at every twist and turn your union have failed. Other departments have their disputes granted - but none that are so unjust and have proved to be so at all levels of judiciary in this land!!!!
The pilots dispute over Openskies was a losing case in the courts - thus it was abandoned and BA scored a win on that.
Your union however has some king of mentally deranged lemming tendency - closer and closer to the cliff edge. However the threat to everyone in BA was that you would drag us all over with you.
Your cause is seen as wholly unjust by everyone but the minority of you in the Cabin Crew - can you not look at yourselves and ask why??
For years you have have enjoyed over inflated terms and conditions and pay for doing a very comfortable job - travelling the world - 5 star hotels - all the cheap shopping etc. Granted there is hard work within a narrow time framework but its not exactly 9am-5pm on the bins is it?? And you get more pay! When the worst recession hits, your department was not even asked for a pay cut - just one off the aircraft which was easily met by those wanting VR. Was that so hard to bear looking back now?? Can you honestly say that it was such an outrageous demand?
The only reason it was imposed on you was because your dysfunctional union arrangements meant negotiation failed after some 9 months!!!! That was FACT from the court ruling - it was proved to be legally within BA's rights to impose the one down crewing - how can you justify your stand on that fact alone??
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The day I sign an new contract will be the same day you do.
I never post on here because I can't stand the vitriolic, self centered, hypocritical bile spewed on here by so called professionals who I once considered friends and colleagues.
You are a disgrace to the TU movement and should hang your heads in shame.
You will get all you deserve in BA and I can't wait to stand and applaud.
I never post on here because I can't stand the vitriolic, self centered, hypocritical bile spewed on here by so called professionals who I once considered friends and colleagues.
You are a disgrace to the TU movement and should hang your heads in shame.
You will get all you deserve in BA and I can't wait to stand and applaud.
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Keep ticking yes
The lemmings are already threatening to "vote yes" to the new ballot. Is this ballot number 4 or 5? When does this stop being a dispute and becomes a mere hissy fit?
Just shows that some crew are incapable of accepting defeat. The next yes vote will have no effect on BA's stance. You could hold another hundred ballots and BA will just ignore each one. Keep calm and carry on to quote your phrase.
It's over. Pack up and go home before someone really gets hurt.
Just shows that some crew are incapable of accepting defeat. The next yes vote will have no effect on BA's stance. You could hold another hundred ballots and BA will just ignore each one. Keep calm and carry on to quote your phrase.
It's over. Pack up and go home before someone really gets hurt.
Last edited by BASSAwitch; 8th Feb 2011 at 17:55.
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dave3:
Thanks for the reply. I wasn't being smart when I asked you the question If I had read all your previous posts I may have not needed to ask. But as you have read them then I am confused as to why you think BASSA can lay claim to the fact you are still enjoying your T & C's when the company has assured us many times that this would be the case. Also, I signed the offer back in the summer and contrary to BASSA propaganda have not given up anything from my contract, in fact all I have done is enhance my current contract with a protected payment to guarantee earnings should our work disappear (although would have preferred the MTP, but BASSA rejected that one).
It seems that BASSA have now started to take credit for BA's promises? Also, why do you think BA were the ones who have saved you job. They could have easily allowed you to strike and then LEGALLY sacked you. Thought DH told you all that you couldn't be dismissed?
Thanks for the reply. I wasn't being smart when I asked you the question If I had read all your previous posts I may have not needed to ask. But as you have read them then I am confused as to why you think BASSA can lay claim to the fact you are still enjoying your T & C's when the company has assured us many times that this would be the case. Also, I signed the offer back in the summer and contrary to BASSA propaganda have not given up anything from my contract, in fact all I have done is enhance my current contract with a protected payment to guarantee earnings should our work disappear (although would have preferred the MTP, but BASSA rejected that one).
It seems that BASSA have now started to take credit for BA's promises? Also, why do you think BA were the ones who have saved you job. They could have easily allowed you to strike and then LEGALLY sacked you. Thought DH told you all that you couldn't be dismissed?
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Dave3 you can't possibly preach democracy when the very Union branch you appear to support have publicly condoned any member who voted 'no' or went to work and has asked them to F*** O**!!
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I wonder is Duncan on a performance bonus for each ballot conducted? 
I haven't laughed this much in weeks. So what difference will another ballot make? Same circus just a different tent.
Donkeys led by donkeys.
I haven't laughed this much in weeks. So what difference will another ballot make? Same circus just a different tent.
Donkeys led by donkeys.
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Olympus593
I never post on here because I can't stand the vitriolic, self centered, hypocritical bile spewed on here by so called professionals who I once considered friends and colleagues.
You are simply witnessing thoughts from a majority which, of course are mainly contrary to BASSA thinking, and, more to the point, would not make it on the BASSA website for daring to have an opposing view!!!
Your tone certainly backs that up.
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From the point of view of a trade unionist, UNITE - the UK's biggest trade union has made 3 attempts to make a legal ballot and has only achieved it once. A 67% failure rate. If UNITE cannot get this core business activity right, where do the rest of us stand?
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Dave3,
Please, please Dave, can we finally put this "The Company was never in crisis" nonsense to bed.
We have had 2 years of making eye watering losses (£1m+ per day).
We may make £200ish million this year, if we are lucky. ONLY because we cut costs, because IATA figures show yeald is still very weak.
That figure SOUNDs good, because those sorts of figures always sound a lot of money to ordinary mortals like us. In fact it's only "good" in the context of the fact that world aviation is struggling to come out of a recession.
If things were normal £200m would be a TERRIBLE result. A company that turns over what we do should be making about 10% profit in order to invest, put something aside for a crisis and meet it's pensions commitments etc. In BA's case that would be £1b ish. That £200m would probably buy one and a bit A380. We've got a dozen or so on order and about the same again 787s (Emirates has got 90 A380s on order. Yes 90, now tell me we are not is a whole new world of airline competition.)
If we continue to make only £200m every year, we'll be history as an airline sooner rather than later.
Directors bonuses are just a smokescreen by BASSA. Given the enormity of the figures above, is Willie Walshe's (defered, in share options) bonus going to make even the tiniest difference? No, obviously not.
Oil is now $100 per barrel, the Uk government's austerity measures have yet to really bite, last months growth figures were appalling, inflation is soaring. Only someone ignorant of the facts would say we are out of trouble even now, let alone say we never were in it.
I say this as a fellow cabin crew member, Dave, but the sad thing is, over the years, BASSA have put out all this silly spin as a way of avoiding doing some professional and responsible negociation. Unfortunately, the membership (because it's loyal and trusts BASSA, because they are fellow cabin crew) unquestioningly accepts it and repeats it like a mantra. You only really have to do a bit of research (as I have throughout this whole sorry affair) to see it's total hogwash.
BAASA refused the Company's offer to examine the Company Accounts. How, therefore, would they know how bad things were? Why did they refuse, unlike several other unions? I believe, because they had decided on their "crisis, what crisis?" stance and didn't want anything spoiling that spin opportunity.
Please, please Dave, can we finally put this "The Company was never in crisis" nonsense to bed.
We have had 2 years of making eye watering losses (£1m+ per day).
We may make £200ish million this year, if we are lucky. ONLY because we cut costs, because IATA figures show yeald is still very weak.
That figure SOUNDs good, because those sorts of figures always sound a lot of money to ordinary mortals like us. In fact it's only "good" in the context of the fact that world aviation is struggling to come out of a recession.
If things were normal £200m would be a TERRIBLE result. A company that turns over what we do should be making about 10% profit in order to invest, put something aside for a crisis and meet it's pensions commitments etc. In BA's case that would be £1b ish. That £200m would probably buy one and a bit A380. We've got a dozen or so on order and about the same again 787s (Emirates has got 90 A380s on order. Yes 90, now tell me we are not is a whole new world of airline competition.)
If we continue to make only £200m every year, we'll be history as an airline sooner rather than later.
Directors bonuses are just a smokescreen by BASSA. Given the enormity of the figures above, is Willie Walshe's (defered, in share options) bonus going to make even the tiniest difference? No, obviously not.
Oil is now $100 per barrel, the Uk government's austerity measures have yet to really bite, last months growth figures were appalling, inflation is soaring. Only someone ignorant of the facts would say we are out of trouble even now, let alone say we never were in it.
I say this as a fellow cabin crew member, Dave, but the sad thing is, over the years, BASSA have put out all this silly spin as a way of avoiding doing some professional and responsible negociation. Unfortunately, the membership (because it's loyal and trusts BASSA, because they are fellow cabin crew) unquestioningly accepts it and repeats it like a mantra. You only really have to do a bit of research (as I have throughout this whole sorry affair) to see it's total hogwash.
BAASA refused the Company's offer to examine the Company Accounts. How, therefore, would they know how bad things were? Why did they refuse, unlike several other unions? I believe, because they had decided on their "crisis, what crisis?" stance and didn't want anything spoiling that spin opportunity.
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What next?
Whilst I had hoped that BASSA/UNITE would have learnt their lessons regarding invalid ballots from Nov 2009. My fears have been realised, and once again they will be placing more uncertainty for passengers wishing to make future bookings, quote from a friend "Can you believe it? I made a booking for April thinking any IA would have to happen by then, and now they have to ballot again and my trip is at risk?" I could only sympathise with them that the incompetance of these unions is not over yet, and maybe, just maybe they will see sense and return to the negotiating table and end this dispute.
Dave3, I've worked for BA for over 25 years, and still trust them, after having to accept pay cuts, increased workloads, restructrures, and more. Fact: BA and the many of the worlds airlines were in severe financial difficulties 2 years ago, the fact BA made a profit in 2010, was due to measures agreed by 75% of the workforce to reduce costs, why 43% of the remaining workfocr think they should be excempt is beyond me?
Dave3, I've worked for BA for over 25 years, and still trust them, after having to accept pay cuts, increased workloads, restructrures, and more. Fact: BA and the many of the worlds airlines were in severe financial difficulties 2 years ago, the fact BA made a profit in 2010, was due to measures agreed by 75% of the workforce to reduce costs, why 43% of the remaining workfocr think they should be excempt is beyond me?