BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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So basically in my eyes you have been really badly led by DH, he has led himself and the rest of you down a long and bad path, lost you your staff travel, loads of money and made cabin crew a hated spicies for apsolutely nothing. To get staff travel back and a good offer that have been there ALL along.
DH has absolutley nothing to lose (like the Unite top dogs). Bitterness is a powerful motivator
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Hi Mildly Militant
Thanks for your reply. I remember Bassa totally misrepresented the pay cut etc taken by the pilots and even suggested that the profit share element would mean a pay rise thus rabble rousing against the old enemy ( not that i'm describing crew as a rabble...)
Whilst i'm not comfortable with volunteers "strike breaking" I believe many staff were in fear of their jobs and decided to act to keep their employment. The real enemy here is bassa, they have tried to damage our employer when administration was a real possibility, they have worstened the T&Cs of those they represent and they have poisoned our working relationship. I would certainly volunteer to destroy bassa & have crew represented by a competent union who actually look after your future.
Thanks for your reply. I remember Bassa totally misrepresented the pay cut etc taken by the pilots and even suggested that the profit share element would mean a pay rise thus rabble rousing against the old enemy ( not that i'm describing crew as a rabble...)
Whilst i'm not comfortable with volunteers "strike breaking" I believe many staff were in fear of their jobs and decided to act to keep their employment. The real enemy here is bassa, they have tried to damage our employer when administration was a real possibility, they have worstened the T&Cs of those they represent and they have poisoned our working relationship. I would certainly volunteer to destroy bassa & have crew represented by a competent union who actually look after your future.
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Very pertinent questions Mesmer - I have often wondered how these two diametrically opposed issues could be resolved. Like you, I welcome informed debate and look forward to hearing a response soon from someone who is a supporter of IA. I would also like to know if the issues of Staff Travel and reinstatement of suspended/sacked crew are on the agenda this time. If so, then surely there is no way strike action could be a viable option, as both these issues are most definitely linked to the previous action. I have even read that Amicus (with 20% strike-following members?) state that the original reason for the dissent, ie imposition, must be addressed before any other dialogue can take place. Can this be real??
WIRBLESTURM: I am WW CC and I think your postings on page 128 are spot on.
WIRBLESTURM: I am WW CC and I think your postings on page 128 are spot on.
Last edited by Missyminx; 22nd Jan 2011 at 18:49.
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BG
A very astute and sensible post.
The best that strikers can hope for is that they lose a few days pay.
The deal will not improve, staff travel will not be reinstated (in full) and those sacked will not get their jobs back.
It could be much worse if BA start playing hardball!
Actually, it's is hard to believe there are still 5700 crew who don't understand what's going on.
A very astute and sensible post.
The best that strikers can hope for is that they lose a few days pay.
The deal will not improve, staff travel will not be reinstated (in full) and those sacked will not get their jobs back.
It could be much worse if BA start playing hardball!
Actually, it's is hard to believe there are still 5700 crew who don't understand what's going on.
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Facts v Perception
Malcolmf thanks for a clear explanation of why you felt it was necessary to back ba.Though I do not condone strike breaking ,based on your view of the situation it might appear to be an acceptable solution if you are truly concerned about your future.Survival instinct ect
Gear Up Cheer Up
"Reap what you sow." is it really necessary to add this sort of comment to the debate?
I personally did not sow anything.I respect EVERYONE I interact with during a day's work and always make a point of being extremely courteous,approachable and open minded.
However as a human being I am also entitled to make personal choices and to exercise certain rights.I find it saddening that professional adults should treat each other in this fashion.
Strimmerdriver
"they have worstened the T&Cs of those they represent and they have poisoned our working relationship"
As far as worsening our T&C's I believe your claim to be incorrect.To date they have not changed except for the pay freeze.With regards to poisoning relationships I find it difficult to blame solely Bassa.
Firstly it would suggest that Unite's members do not have a mind of their own,which I find condescending in the extreme.
Secondly they have not been present in T5 since their eviction of the office over a year ago.To claim that they are the devil incarnated seems a bit OTT,considering that so far they have been excluded from the premises.However I will grant you that some members could do with an extra semester at the finishing school, the same could be said for many people I encounter at work who are not in a union or who are in a different group of workers.What has been poisoning, is probably the desire for revenge by many who had an axe to grind against my profession for whatever reason.They appear to have seized upon this unpleasant industrial unrest to settle old quarrels.
Lastly many who took industrial action have been victimised not only through the removal of staff travel,but also being reported and subsequently suspended or sacked for non offences.Whilst others who did not strike are enjoying complete impunity and can carry on bullying c/c who went on strike.
Because the fear factor is key in this battle .
Others have had pay deductions which exceeded the number of days they were on strike for (WW crew having 6 day pay docked when actually on strike for 3 days).All of which indicate that a large proportion of people have suffered unjustly simply for exercising a basic right over an employment dispute.Are these acceptable and progressive 21st century industrial relations?
Does it signal a willingness to settle and move on?
Gear Up Cheer Up
"Reap what you sow." is it really necessary to add this sort of comment to the debate?
I personally did not sow anything.I respect EVERYONE I interact with during a day's work and always make a point of being extremely courteous,approachable and open minded.
However as a human being I am also entitled to make personal choices and to exercise certain rights.I find it saddening that professional adults should treat each other in this fashion.
Strimmerdriver
"they have worstened the T&Cs of those they represent and they have poisoned our working relationship"
As far as worsening our T&C's I believe your claim to be incorrect.To date they have not changed except for the pay freeze.With regards to poisoning relationships I find it difficult to blame solely Bassa.
Firstly it would suggest that Unite's members do not have a mind of their own,which I find condescending in the extreme.
Secondly they have not been present in T5 since their eviction of the office over a year ago.To claim that they are the devil incarnated seems a bit OTT,considering that so far they have been excluded from the premises.However I will grant you that some members could do with an extra semester at the finishing school, the same could be said for many people I encounter at work who are not in a union or who are in a different group of workers.What has been poisoning, is probably the desire for revenge by many who had an axe to grind against my profession for whatever reason.They appear to have seized upon this unpleasant industrial unrest to settle old quarrels.
Lastly many who took industrial action have been victimised not only through the removal of staff travel,but also being reported and subsequently suspended or sacked for non offences.Whilst others who did not strike are enjoying complete impunity and can carry on bullying c/c who went on strike.
Because the fear factor is key in this battle .
Others have had pay deductions which exceeded the number of days they were on strike for (WW crew having 6 day pay docked when actually on strike for 3 days).All of which indicate that a large proportion of people have suffered unjustly simply for exercising a basic right over an employment dispute.Are these acceptable and progressive 21st century industrial relations?
Does it signal a willingness to settle and move on?
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Mildly Militant,
I can't imagine what you mean when you say that those that did not strike are bullying. Most people that did not strike don't say anything or actually pretend they striked for a peaceful life.
I personally have not seem any bullying but I do find it intimidating if I see XXXX tags or a yellow pen but I do however realise that it is not meant in an intimidatory way. That's just how it makes me feel. Haven't seen any for a while though. Strangely one steward that did have a yellow pen had just got given CSM but made me promise not to tell the rest of the crew!!!
Anyway Mildly Militant you have not answered my question about what you hope to achieve by striking?
You also haven't explained what is wrong with the offer, other than this cast iron guarantee that we have never had before?
I can't imagine what you mean when you say that those that did not strike are bullying. Most people that did not strike don't say anything or actually pretend they striked for a peaceful life.
I personally have not seem any bullying but I do find it intimidating if I see XXXX tags or a yellow pen but I do however realise that it is not meant in an intimidatory way. That's just how it makes me feel. Haven't seen any for a while though. Strangely one steward that did have a yellow pen had just got given CSM but made me promise not to tell the rest of the crew!!!
Anyway Mildly Militant you have not answered my question about what you hope to achieve by striking?
You also haven't explained what is wrong with the offer, other than this cast iron guarantee that we have never had before?
Mildly Militant,
The example of someone who 'only' went on strike for 3 days losing 6 days pay is because that is how you are rostered. The length of the trip dictates the number of days off. In are totally and completely linked.
The company stated very clearly before the first strike that strikers would lose pay in this manner.
The 'only' chink in your favour relates to people that were genuinely sick and have had pay docked. The problem was always going to be that since cabin crew sickness rate and 'no-show' rate is so high - exactly how did you expect the company to tell the difference?
Loss of travel victimisation - pull the other leg! Again you were all warned that if you took industrial action you would lose the NON CONTRACTUAL perk of ST.
The example of someone who 'only' went on strike for 3 days losing 6 days pay is because that is how you are rostered. The length of the trip dictates the number of days off. In are totally and completely linked.
The company stated very clearly before the first strike that strikers would lose pay in this manner.
The 'only' chink in your favour relates to people that were genuinely sick and have had pay docked. The problem was always going to be that since cabin crew sickness rate and 'no-show' rate is so high - exactly how did you expect the company to tell the difference?
Loss of travel victimisation - pull the other leg! Again you were all warned that if you took industrial action you would lose the NON CONTRACTUAL perk of ST.
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Some postings on here stating that 'Cabin Crew are BA', the rest of us are not so pertinent to the airline and how this particular poster would rather see BA go under than accept the deals on offer. Nice eh?
Betty Girl
I admire your attempts to persuade the "for strike action" CC to read the proposals. Clearly this is falling on deaf ears.
We can all speculate what BA might or should do, time will tell but hopefully sooner rather than later.
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Mildly Militant
I would be curious to see concrete proof of all these non strikers that have been getting away with bullying with impunity, in the same way I'd love to see proof of all those strikers suspended and sacked for nothing.
In my experience these stories are usually the result of "My friend was suspended and all he did was........." anecdotal evidence. Imparting of facts, even between friends, tends to be selective. I mean, they are hardly likely to say, "I got sacked today, I was a complete idiot..."
As for stories of sacked and suspended colleagues on various forums and newsletters, well, that's not "proof" I'm afraid.
Interestingly, anecdotally, from reliable sources, I've heard of at least two hot headed militants (one of whom shouted in his managers face that she should "Get out of my ******* face , you ****** *****!") be re-instated with no further action. It works both ways.
I would be curious to see concrete proof of all these non strikers that have been getting away with bullying with impunity, in the same way I'd love to see proof of all those strikers suspended and sacked for nothing.
In my experience these stories are usually the result of "My friend was suspended and all he did was........." anecdotal evidence. Imparting of facts, even between friends, tends to be selective. I mean, they are hardly likely to say, "I got sacked today, I was a complete idiot..."
As for stories of sacked and suspended colleagues on various forums and newsletters, well, that's not "proof" I'm afraid.
Interestingly, anecdotally, from reliable sources, I've heard of at least two hot headed militants (one of whom shouted in his managers face that she should "Get out of my ******* face , you ****** *****!") be re-instated with no further action. It works both ways.
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I have heard that Duncan Holey has posted that ALL 1579 that voted NO to strike should leave the union now as they are not welcome anymore.
What about all those that voted YES but came in to work!!
What about all those that abstained and did not even bother to vote!! Are they welcome!!!
Strange kind of democracy they have at Bassa when you can only be a member if you agree with Duncan Holey.
That should surely send a shudder down the backs of even the YES voters!!!!
Can anyone post his ramblings if they have access. Thanks BG.
What about all those that voted YES but came in to work!!
What about all those that abstained and did not even bother to vote!! Are they welcome!!!
Strange kind of democracy they have at Bassa when you can only be a member if you agree with Duncan Holey.
That should surely send a shudder down the backs of even the YES voters!!!!
Can anyone post his ramblings if they have access. Thanks BG.
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I have heard that Duncan Holey has posted that ALL 1579 that voted NO to strike should leave the union now as they are not welcome anymore
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If it is true that DH thinks all no voters should leave the union - and I have no knowledge either way - it would be a foolish thing to suggest. BASSA has lost some c2500 members over the last 18 months, another c1500 would seriously diminish the influence that BASSA has, indeed it would push it toward the point where BA may consider de-recognition.
Even if they maintain the recognition there would be significantly less people for BASSA to call upon when they need industrial muscle. This will not be the only dispute that BASSA gets into with BA, telling people to leave the union will leave BASSA much weaker when and if it has a really important problem with BA that genuinely motivates a vast majority of members. I'm not sure that even DH is so stupid as to suggest such a thing.
Even if they maintain the recognition there would be significantly less people for BASSA to call upon when they need industrial muscle. This will not be the only dispute that BASSA gets into with BA, telling people to leave the union will leave BASSA much weaker when and if it has a really important problem with BA that genuinely motivates a vast majority of members. I'm not sure that even DH is so stupid as to suggest such a thing.
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Don't know if this is allowed but here goes. This is a part of DH's latest mantra
Have to say I have NO idea why the near 3000 crew in Bassa who didn't vote either way are in the union. I despair.
£17/month for what. At least I met some crew who have staayed in Bassa for the last few months to vote no, and did.
Now BA's plans are in the open I would like to send this message to
everyone who has either left BASSA, voted NO, or to a lesser extent not
voted. You have been given your say and the majority has spoken. If you
have any integrity you should accept Bill Francis's offer straight away
because your actions and votes are a tacit acceptance of what BA propose.
Don't sit back and see if your brave colleagues who voted YES can fight
your fight for you. That is cowardice, you have made your bed and now you
must lie in it, alongside Bill. Good Luck, it has been nice knowing you.
everyone who has either left BASSA, voted NO, or to a lesser extent not
voted. You have been given your say and the majority has spoken. If you
have any integrity you should accept Bill Francis's offer straight away
because your actions and votes are a tacit acceptance of what BA propose.
Don't sit back and see if your brave colleagues who voted YES can fight
your fight for you. That is cowardice, you have made your bed and now you
must lie in it, alongside Bill. Good Luck, it has been nice knowing you.
£17/month for what. At least I met some crew who have staayed in Bassa for the last few months to vote no, and did.
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He is more NUTS than I even thought because if they take his advice it will mean Bassa can be derecognised. There surely must be other reps that can see how silly that statement is.
A union is supposed to follow it's member's views. If all it's original members were still there, he would not have got his majority.
Cannot he not understand that he is supposed to understand and take on board the feelings of ALL his members, not just the ones that agree with him.
Can someone brave post the whole ramble from him.
Thanks BG
P.S. Thanks JT for posting that bit.
A union is supposed to follow it's member's views. If all it's original members were still there, he would not have got his majority.
Cannot he not understand that he is supposed to understand and take on board the feelings of ALL his members, not just the ones that agree with him.
Can someone brave post the whole ramble from him.
Thanks BG
P.S. Thanks JT for posting that bit.
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Duncan's latest:
I am very conscious you have heard nothing from BASSA since yesterday's
deeply satisfying ballot result so just a few personal observations if I
may be so bold.
Firstly I find BA's response very revealing. They wasted little time in
trying to manipulate the figures to illustrate their rather tired
ideology. Instead of spending their efforts on seeking a way out of this
dispute they continue to pour scorn at a result any government would be
tickled pink with. Instead of reflecting that yet again there is a near
80% YES vote, they try to add up all the non-voters into the NO camp -
spin so blatant even Tony Blair would turn red - to try and convince their
lapdogs in the media all is falling apart. Don't they instead ever
consider the sensible, mature response i.e. let's cut out the belittling
sneers and let's take up Len's offer of starting sensible dialogue? Why
mock those who are prepared to make a brave stand for what they believe
in? Wouldn't they stand up and resist changes if their livelihood were
threatened? Why try and cheapen something that has been democratically
conducted and passionately undertaken?
BA really need to grow up - accept that Walsh's dream of smashing the
union is just that - a dream and a very immoral one at that. BA's style of
industrial relations is bankrupt, it has been for years and no matter how
much they bully their workforce those methods only worsen the situation.
The situation is crying out for proper leadership from their side. If it
is genuine then a way out can be found.
Now BA's plans are in the open I would like to send this message to
everyone who has either left BASSA, voted NO, or to a lesser extent not
voted. You have been given your say and the majority has spoken. If you
have any integrity you should accept Bill Francis's offer straight away
because your actions and votes are a tacit acceptance of what BA propose.
Don't sit back and see if your brave colleagues who voted YES can fight
your fight for you. That is cowardice, you have made your bed and now you
must lie in it, alongside Bill. Good Luck, it has been nice knowing you.
I now turn to those magnificent 78.5%. You have made BASSA what it is; on
behalf of the reps I say it is an honour to continue to represent you in
this on-going struggle. One day when this is over, you will look at
yourself in the mirror and say "you know what, I am proud of myself, I
stood up to bullying, intimidation and treachery and I fought for what is
right. I fought for my colleagues, my family and for my dignity. I did the
right thing".
Next week the committee members available will meet in conjunction with
Len and Co at Unite to decide the next steps. I have listened to all your
messages, nothing is ruled in or out at this time. We must tread warily
ensuring everything is done effectively and correctly.
Regards to all those who stood tall.
Duncan
deeply satisfying ballot result so just a few personal observations if I
may be so bold.
Firstly I find BA's response very revealing. They wasted little time in
trying to manipulate the figures to illustrate their rather tired
ideology. Instead of spending their efforts on seeking a way out of this
dispute they continue to pour scorn at a result any government would be
tickled pink with. Instead of reflecting that yet again there is a near
80% YES vote, they try to add up all the non-voters into the NO camp -
spin so blatant even Tony Blair would turn red - to try and convince their
lapdogs in the media all is falling apart. Don't they instead ever
consider the sensible, mature response i.e. let's cut out the belittling
sneers and let's take up Len's offer of starting sensible dialogue? Why
mock those who are prepared to make a brave stand for what they believe
in? Wouldn't they stand up and resist changes if their livelihood were
threatened? Why try and cheapen something that has been democratically
conducted and passionately undertaken?
BA really need to grow up - accept that Walsh's dream of smashing the
union is just that - a dream and a very immoral one at that. BA's style of
industrial relations is bankrupt, it has been for years and no matter how
much they bully their workforce those methods only worsen the situation.
The situation is crying out for proper leadership from their side. If it
is genuine then a way out can be found.
Now BA's plans are in the open I would like to send this message to
everyone who has either left BASSA, voted NO, or to a lesser extent not
voted. You have been given your say and the majority has spoken. If you
have any integrity you should accept Bill Francis's offer straight away
because your actions and votes are a tacit acceptance of what BA propose.
Don't sit back and see if your brave colleagues who voted YES can fight
your fight for you. That is cowardice, you have made your bed and now you
must lie in it, alongside Bill. Good Luck, it has been nice knowing you.
I now turn to those magnificent 78.5%. You have made BASSA what it is; on
behalf of the reps I say it is an honour to continue to represent you in
this on-going struggle. One day when this is over, you will look at
yourself in the mirror and say "you know what, I am proud of myself, I
stood up to bullying, intimidation and treachery and I fought for what is
right. I fought for my colleagues, my family and for my dignity. I did the
right thing".
Next week the committee members available will meet in conjunction with
Len and Co at Unite to decide the next steps. I have listened to all your
messages, nothing is ruled in or out at this time. We must tread warily
ensuring everything is done effectively and correctly.
Regards to all those who stood tall.
Duncan
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This statement has created an opening which the PCCC should exploit. This is their time. Derecognise BASSA and start again. I imagine BA would be delighted and might even cede some ground going forward as a mark of good faith for the future.
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I agree wideboy69, the PCCC should use this opportunity to increase it membership figures. We also have some 300 potential members on Mixed Fleet (where if rumours of poor rosters etc are to be believed, they could really use some support).
For some of us the forum on the PCCC has been a breath of fresh air, members can express their views in an adult manner and don't get harassed for having an opinion that differs from the norm. It also helps to know that there are many like minded crew out there desperate for a union with a fresh approach that TRULY wants whats best for ALL it's members.
Why else do you think DH has to make up such ridiculous stories about who is behind it? He's sees it as a real threat and if the waning support for BASSA is anything to go by, he has very good reason to be scared!
Our crew community want something different from a union and BASSA are failing to provide it.
For some of us the forum on the PCCC has been a breath of fresh air, members can express their views in an adult manner and don't get harassed for having an opinion that differs from the norm. It also helps to know that there are many like minded crew out there desperate for a union with a fresh approach that TRULY wants whats best for ALL it's members.
Why else do you think DH has to make up such ridiculous stories about who is behind it? He's sees it as a real threat and if the waning support for BASSA is anything to go by, he has very good reason to be scared!
Our crew community want something different from a union and BASSA are failing to provide it.
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Widebody,
It really is much harder than you think to get recognition as a union that is able to speak for your members. Any union be it Bassa , PCCC or another already established union needs to have a membership of at least 40 % before BA can even talk to them and that is a steep hill to climb especially considering that a lot of BA crew didn't bother to vote this time. Of course it may have been in some cases that they had actually already left Bassa so didn't feel able to use the ballot, we can't be sure that the membership figure of people being sent ballots was correct because we know of many already that were sent ballots even though they had left.
What could come out of this sorry affair is that cabin crew end up with NO one representing them and that would be an absolutely awful situation and basically brought about by one man and woman. Holey and Malone. Thanks, you two, you have really done your union a disservice.
This truly is one great big mess that these people have put us in.
It really is much harder than you think to get recognition as a union that is able to speak for your members. Any union be it Bassa , PCCC or another already established union needs to have a membership of at least 40 % before BA can even talk to them and that is a steep hill to climb especially considering that a lot of BA crew didn't bother to vote this time. Of course it may have been in some cases that they had actually already left Bassa so didn't feel able to use the ballot, we can't be sure that the membership figure of people being sent ballots was correct because we know of many already that were sent ballots even though they had left.
What could come out of this sorry affair is that cabin crew end up with NO one representing them and that would be an absolutely awful situation and basically brought about by one man and woman. Holey and Malone. Thanks, you two, you have really done your union a disservice.
This truly is one great big mess that these people have put us in.