BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Sorry dave3 I think you're misleading people here, there is no contractural right to staff travel in BA
edited to add: posted the same time as vctenderness. People's 'authority' on here can never be established, dave, you have to go by the tone and content of their individual postings and always bear in mind the warning at the foot of the PPRuNe home page.
Asking people for 'proof' on an anonymous forum makes your own argument look weak.
edited to add: posted the same time as vctenderness. People's 'authority' on here can never be established, dave, you have to go by the tone and content of their individual postings and always bear in mind the warning at the foot of the PPRuNe home page.
Asking people for 'proof' on an anonymous forum makes your own argument look weak.
Last edited by overstress; 29th Nov 2010 at 12:41.
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dave3
There has never been a contractual right to ST. It is a perk and always has been. If it were as simple as a contractual right, this would have already been the subject of legal action. BASSA were very quick to test whether or not the staffing levels on the aircraft were contractual in court. It is just not credible that BASSA would not have also tested the possible contractual status of ST if there was any doubt whatsoever. This specious argument has been rehearsed here many times already, repeating a untruth does not make it any the less untrue.
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It never ends- BBC
PS Dave3 I'd be astounded if the actual wording of your contract specifically referred to a provision of commuting tickets in and of themselves as opposed to a perk of staff travel which you can, should you wish, use to facilitate your commute.
PS Dave3 I'd be astounded if the actual wording of your contract specifically referred to a provision of commuting tickets in and of themselves as opposed to a perk of staff travel which you can, should you wish, use to facilitate your commute.
Last edited by MrBunker; 29th Nov 2010 at 13:41.
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It doesn't, Mr Bunker.
Tony Woodley has just announced Unite Cabin Crew to be balloted for fresh strikes.
He mentioned imposition, Mixed Fleet, Straff Travel and sacked and suspended crew as reasons for the ballot.
Tony Woodley has just announced Unite Cabin Crew to be balloted for fresh strikes.
He mentioned imposition, Mixed Fleet, Straff Travel and sacked and suspended crew as reasons for the ballot.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 29th Nov 2010 at 13:47.
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Another strike ballot, oh dear. Ill be very interested indeed to hear what the grounds are going to be and the unions position on the strike being protected, or not.
Naturally I dont expect a single word of warning to be formally issued to crew as to the potential risk to their continued employment if its unprotected, save for the statutory wording on the actual ballot paper itself.
This is terrible news really, on and on it goes.
11,000 members, really? I guess my partner, ex-member for nearly a year now, is still one of those.
Naturally I dont expect a single word of warning to be formally issued to crew as to the potential risk to their continued employment if its unprotected, save for the statutory wording on the actual ballot paper itself.
This is terrible news really, on and on it goes.
11,000 members, really? I guess my partner, ex-member for nearly a year now, is still one of those.
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This from the AMICUS section . LATEST NEWS UPDATES
To compare themselves to to generals is a little strong, jumped up corporals maybe.
Regards
28th November 2010 - Open Letter From AMICUS to Unite JGS Tony Woodley, and Len McCluskey
Open Letter - Without Prejudice.
28th November 2010
To: The JGS of Unite the Union
From: The Unite Cabin Crew/Amicus Section
Dear Sirs,
It has now been almost 3 weeks since we met and the decision was taken to approach British Airways with four 'no cost' items that would enable the union to establish if the company was indeed sincere about their desire to find a MEANINGFUL settlement to this dispute.
The silence speaks for itself.
As you will recall it was contrary to the position AMICUS Cabin Crew wished to adopt which was to go to an immediate industrial action ballot and use the intervening time to approach British Airways.
We must presume that British Airways has shown no interest in the items or the approach from Unite and has chosen not to respond. One can only surmise that this has been to ensure we are unable to organise and carry out any industrial action over the Christmas period.
Whilst we represent the minority of the membership and it was disappointing that more of our members appeared not to have supported the previous actions, we solemnly believe that we are left with little option but to call once again for an Industrial Action ballot. We believe that this reflects the broader view of popular opinion in the community one which cannot now be ignored.
On a wider note, and to use the military vernacular that you favour, if the members represent the army, the committee the generals, then you must be the field marshals? We must now ask you as the 'field marshals' to accept that the strategy recently adopted has not been as successful as we might have liked. Whilst it was one based soundly on being reasonable and attempting to find an equitable solution and agreement, British Airways leadership team have exploited that reasonableness and continued to restructure and IMPOSE changes at will. They have been relentless in what can only be termed as bullying and harassment towards the membership in a crude attempt to weaken their resolve. In truth, this has only served to raise our communitys anger and commitment to their principles even higher. BAs approach has been summed up by the outgoing CEO, when he stated, for the record, that "a reasonable man gets nowhere in negotiations". How true that has proved to be.
We must therefore ask that Unite adopt a much needed change of strategy. For clarity we do not believe that this dispute will be settled on the picket line, we believe that it must be negotiated. However British Airways must be brought to the negotiating table with the genuine intention of finding a solution and not continuing to throw "take it or leave it" offers on the table that are designed to wear us down and punish us for enacting our lawful right to industrial action.
We believe that the lawful use of regular and de-stabilising strikes and the timely and proactive use of the judicial system will facilitate such an end. We need to address the legal issues that are presented to us with more urgency. We must ask that more emphasis is put on the existing legal challenges and they are elevated and pursued more vigorously. We must petition you to instruct our legal team to action our appeal to the Supreme Court on the contract/crew compliments case.
For the benefit of those that might call into question our motives, please be assured it is the well being of this community to whom we are actively listening- as we are part of that community. We must resist the bully and ensure we are not battered into submission. We cannot take our eyes off the ball and lose sight of why we have taken this action. It was IMPOSITION that sparked this struggle and it has NOT been adequately addressed in our opinion. Some may wish to write off that issue, but to do so would undoubtedly be to our collective peril. The introduction of mixed fleet is now living proof of that.
It is clear that the British Airways strategy is one designed to obliterate any form of meaningful representation, now and going forward. They are adopting the carefully organized union busting strategies of bullying and harassment in the workplace under the guise of `managing; Diverting the dispute with issues they control and use as leverage to force settlement (i.e. staff travel); and treating us with contempt which is evident in their treatment of those disciplined and sacked, their treatment of the reps, andsubjecting us to a modern day "lock out". The time has now come for us all to effect change to our benefit.
Whilst the nature law of these things will have you supporting the view of the committee that represents the largest numbers, we sincerely hope that our view will not be dismissed and the merit and relevance of the minority's contribution will not continue to be ignored or lost. Weundertake to represent the views of the whole membership and to keep the team focused for the benefit of the collective.
Yours in Solidarity,
The Unite Cabin Crew/Amicus Section, Of Unite the Union.
Open Letter - Without Prejudice.
28th November 2010
To: The JGS of Unite the Union
From: The Unite Cabin Crew/Amicus Section
Dear Sirs,
It has now been almost 3 weeks since we met and the decision was taken to approach British Airways with four 'no cost' items that would enable the union to establish if the company was indeed sincere about their desire to find a MEANINGFUL settlement to this dispute.
The silence speaks for itself.
As you will recall it was contrary to the position AMICUS Cabin Crew wished to adopt which was to go to an immediate industrial action ballot and use the intervening time to approach British Airways.
We must presume that British Airways has shown no interest in the items or the approach from Unite and has chosen not to respond. One can only surmise that this has been to ensure we are unable to organise and carry out any industrial action over the Christmas period.
Whilst we represent the minority of the membership and it was disappointing that more of our members appeared not to have supported the previous actions, we solemnly believe that we are left with little option but to call once again for an Industrial Action ballot. We believe that this reflects the broader view of popular opinion in the community one which cannot now be ignored.
On a wider note, and to use the military vernacular that you favour, if the members represent the army, the committee the generals, then you must be the field marshals? We must now ask you as the 'field marshals' to accept that the strategy recently adopted has not been as successful as we might have liked. Whilst it was one based soundly on being reasonable and attempting to find an equitable solution and agreement, British Airways leadership team have exploited that reasonableness and continued to restructure and IMPOSE changes at will. They have been relentless in what can only be termed as bullying and harassment towards the membership in a crude attempt to weaken their resolve. In truth, this has only served to raise our communitys anger and commitment to their principles even higher. BAs approach has been summed up by the outgoing CEO, when he stated, for the record, that "a reasonable man gets nowhere in negotiations". How true that has proved to be.
We must therefore ask that Unite adopt a much needed change of strategy. For clarity we do not believe that this dispute will be settled on the picket line, we believe that it must be negotiated. However British Airways must be brought to the negotiating table with the genuine intention of finding a solution and not continuing to throw "take it or leave it" offers on the table that are designed to wear us down and punish us for enacting our lawful right to industrial action.
We believe that the lawful use of regular and de-stabilising strikes and the timely and proactive use of the judicial system will facilitate such an end. We need to address the legal issues that are presented to us with more urgency. We must ask that more emphasis is put on the existing legal challenges and they are elevated and pursued more vigorously. We must petition you to instruct our legal team to action our appeal to the Supreme Court on the contract/crew compliments case.
For the benefit of those that might call into question our motives, please be assured it is the well being of this community to whom we are actively listening- as we are part of that community. We must resist the bully and ensure we are not battered into submission. We cannot take our eyes off the ball and lose sight of why we have taken this action. It was IMPOSITION that sparked this struggle and it has NOT been adequately addressed in our opinion. Some may wish to write off that issue, but to do so would undoubtedly be to our collective peril. The introduction of mixed fleet is now living proof of that.
It is clear that the British Airways strategy is one designed to obliterate any form of meaningful representation, now and going forward. They are adopting the carefully organized union busting strategies of bullying and harassment in the workplace under the guise of `managing; Diverting the dispute with issues they control and use as leverage to force settlement (i.e. staff travel); and treating us with contempt which is evident in their treatment of those disciplined and sacked, their treatment of the reps, andsubjecting us to a modern day "lock out". The time has now come for us all to effect change to our benefit.
Whilst the nature law of these things will have you supporting the view of the committee that represents the largest numbers, we sincerely hope that our view will not be dismissed and the merit and relevance of the minority's contribution will not continue to be ignored or lost. Weundertake to represent the views of the whole membership and to keep the team focused for the benefit of the collective.
Yours in Solidarity,
The Unite Cabin Crew/Amicus Section, Of Unite the Union.
Regards
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And this from Unite
Regards
New ballot at BA as Unite says end victimisation and punishment of cabin crew put passengers first
29 November 2010
Unite, the union for British Airways 11,000 cabin crew, today (Monday) confirmed that a fresh ballot for industrial action at the airline is soon to get underway.
Announcing the new ballot, Tony Woodley, joint general secretary of Unite, said: "British Airways latest offer is not acceptable to our members, a point we made clear to the airline earlier this month. Regrettably, we have not found it possible to resolve the outstanding issues concerning cabin crew since then.
BA told us it was a business in crisis. It demanded structural change. These changes have been made and this business is now in profit with senior management filling their wallets with the spoils.
Yet BA is determined to continue with this vicious war against its workforce. It is time for BA to put its passengers first - and the best way to achieve this is to resolve the issues between us, which would not cost BA a single penny and yet would bring priceless stability and peace to the company.
"However, BA's continued hounding of union members leaves us no other option but to conduct a new industrial action ballot.
"This airline has conducted a year-long assault on cabin crew collectively and on many of them as individuals. We will not stand by while this airline bullies our members out of their jobs, and if it takes strike action to bring BA management to its senses, then that is the road we must, regretfully, travel.
"Our door is open to negotiations with BA, but it must understand the depth of feeling among our members. Nothing short of the fairness and decent treatment they deserve will be acceptable."
Tony Woodley outlined the specific issues that BA should address to solve the dispute:
ENDS
29 November 2010
Unite, the union for British Airways 11,000 cabin crew, today (Monday) confirmed that a fresh ballot for industrial action at the airline is soon to get underway.
Announcing the new ballot, Tony Woodley, joint general secretary of Unite, said: "British Airways latest offer is not acceptable to our members, a point we made clear to the airline earlier this month. Regrettably, we have not found it possible to resolve the outstanding issues concerning cabin crew since then.
BA told us it was a business in crisis. It demanded structural change. These changes have been made and this business is now in profit with senior management filling their wallets with the spoils.
Yet BA is determined to continue with this vicious war against its workforce. It is time for BA to put its passengers first - and the best way to achieve this is to resolve the issues between us, which would not cost BA a single penny and yet would bring priceless stability and peace to the company.
"However, BA's continued hounding of union members leaves us no other option but to conduct a new industrial action ballot.
"This airline has conducted a year-long assault on cabin crew collectively and on many of them as individuals. We will not stand by while this airline bullies our members out of their jobs, and if it takes strike action to bring BA management to its senses, then that is the road we must, regretfully, travel.
"Our door is open to negotiations with BA, but it must understand the depth of feeling among our members. Nothing short of the fairness and decent treatment they deserve will be acceptable."
Tony Woodley outlined the specific issues that BA should address to solve the dispute:
- An immediate restoration of staff travel concessions, in full, to the crew from whom they were taken by BA
- Binding arbitration, through Acas, of all cabin crew disciplinary cases related to the dispute
- Restoration of the wages docked from crew who were genuinely off sick during strike dates
- Full and proper discussion of the trade union facilities agreement at the company with the immediate removal of all threats and sanctions made by BA in relation to this.
ENDS
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He mentioned imposition, Mixed Fleet, Straff Travel and sacked and suspended crew as reasons for the ballot.
My condolences to the lemmings.
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Impossible argument
Dave,
surely this is almost impossible for vct to do. It's easy to prove the existence of something by showing it is there, but proving the non-existence of something by showing it isn't there is a little more difficult; unless of course the whole contract was to be posted!
YD
hello vctenderness.. You speak with authority on the subject are you able to offer the readers andy proof quotes or anything to support your view please
YD
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Here we go again;
Attributed to Albert Einstein;
Attributed to Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr;
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
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Tony Woodley
So, Tony, having declared that you'd negotiated the best deal you could, and having said that you'd ballot your members on it, you now decide to go straight for a strike ballot. Who is running your union: you or BASSA? Hint: not you.
I would like to correct you the ST ifor commuters was part of the contract.. do you have one?. if so you could go and quote it I have mine but as I am away I am unable to quote but would be happy to do so when I get home.
28th November 2010 - Open Letter From AMICUS to Unite JGS Tony Woodley, and Len McCluskey
........
We believe that the lawful use of regular and de-stabilising strikes and the timely and proactive use of the judicial system will facilitate such an end.
........
We believe that the lawful use of regular and de-stabilising strikes and the timely and proactive use of the judicial system will facilitate such an end.
On a wider note, and to use the military vernacular that you favour, ...
And as for Woodley's apparent about-turn, I wonder if he is smirkingly lining up the militant BA cabin crew for the coup de grāce. Ta da!
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I know someone who trained as cabin crew with BA as a stop-gap before becoming a BA pilot. I was chatting to him to see if he had any extra 'perspective' on the dispute. His comment was that in his experience, a large number of BA cabin crew can be very 'sheep-like' and tend to follow the rest of the flock, or defer to ever is shouting the loudest.
I don't mean to post this in any insulting way, but I assume if there is a sheep mentality it would explain why things have got to the current state. The sheep have allowed themselves to be led to the field where they currently are grazing, the only problem is that the nice field is just at the back of the slaughterhouse.
I don't mean to post this in any insulting way, but I assume if there is a sheep mentality it would explain why things have got to the current state. The sheep have allowed themselves to be led to the field where they currently are grazing, the only problem is that the nice field is just at the back of the slaughterhouse.
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FromTunbrideWells said "Oh dear - surely there will be legal challenges again as there wasn't proper consultation?"
I can't help but think that, if I were Willie Walsh, I wouldn't waste my time or money on challenging these new strikes through the courts. I'd let the strikes go ahead and I'd let the ranks of VCCs - alongside the majority of full-time crew who have decided to back the company - keep the airline flying.
Then, when the strikes are done, I'd spend the money I would have spent on blocking the strikes on getting rid of the most militant members of the Bassa camp. They'd participated in unlawful strike action, afterall.
There are few people I'd wish unemployment on, but I cannot forgive those responsible for my hate-mail, my menacing SMS and phone messages and the vicious PMs on Facebook. To those people, unemployment is a mild punishment considering what I'd love to see meted out.
I can't help but think that, if I were Willie Walsh, I wouldn't waste my time or money on challenging these new strikes through the courts. I'd let the strikes go ahead and I'd let the ranks of VCCs - alongside the majority of full-time crew who have decided to back the company - keep the airline flying.
Then, when the strikes are done, I'd spend the money I would have spent on blocking the strikes on getting rid of the most militant members of the Bassa camp. They'd participated in unlawful strike action, afterall.
There are few people I'd wish unemployment on, but I cannot forgive those responsible for my hate-mail, my menacing SMS and phone messages and the vicious PMs on Facebook. To those people, unemployment is a mild punishment considering what I'd love to see meted out.
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- and on a side note, as someone whose mother and father have both served time in the military, I wish Bassa would stop trying to draw comparisons between what the crew supporting the strikes are going through and what those men and women who work to defend our country have to endure.
There is no comparison, and to suggest that there is some is nothing short of insulting.
There is no comparison, and to suggest that there is some is nothing short of insulting.