BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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You say you did not train as crew.
Now you say you are a member of crew but not a crew member.
Tortuous linguistics at best.
As said before, here on PPRuNe we use the definitions commonly used in most airlines around the world.
Cockpit crew = pilots
Cabin crew = flight attendants
Together they form a crew:
Now you say you are a member of crew but not a crew member.
Tortuous linguistics at best.
As said before, here on PPRuNe we use the definitions commonly used in most airlines around the world.
Cockpit crew = pilots
Cabin crew = flight attendants
Together they form a crew:
- definition 1: the personnel working aboard a ship or an airplane.
- definition 2: a group of people working together to perform a joint function.
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Everyone at BA will know what I mean. A "crew member" is a title here.
Maybe at your airline you get excited by these semantics.
You're making a big deal over an unimportant point and detracting from the discussion.
Moderate, don't interrupt unnecessarily; thanks.
What does "still" mean? Or is that just gratuitous rudeness?
Maybe at your airline you get excited by these semantics.
You're making a big deal over an unimportant point and detracting from the discussion.
Moderate, don't interrupt unnecessarily; thanks.
Don´t tell me BA still employ sweepers
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Blu Riband, ignoring the arrogant tone and the attempt to attack me rather than what I write; I am happy to answer your points.
You wrote that you are on the 777 yet did not train as crew.
Most European airlines flying to the FE used to employ on-board sweepers on various routes. They were the only workers on board who were not crew.
No European airlines that I know of employ them these days, hence the "still".
Next point; you are making a big mistake in calling crew nomenclature an unimportant point.
Cohesion within a crew is of prime importance. For safety, for smooth operations and for a pleasant working environment.
You, like all air crew, have been taught this.
The habit within some factions of BA employees of putting verbal barriers between different members of the flying team is detrimental to all of the above.
If the factions of CC-despising pilots and pilot-hating cabin crew would find back to what is normal at most legacy carriers, namely friendly relations and the intent to look out for each other within an operating crew, this would go a long way to improving matters.
Last point; your attempt at engaging me in a p!ssing contest is Don Quixotic.
You wrote that you are on the 777 yet did not train as crew.
Most European airlines flying to the FE used to employ on-board sweepers on various routes. They were the only workers on board who were not crew.
No European airlines that I know of employ them these days, hence the "still".
Next point; you are making a big mistake in calling crew nomenclature an unimportant point.
Cohesion within a crew is of prime importance. For safety, for smooth operations and for a pleasant working environment.
You, like all air crew, have been taught this.
The habit within some factions of BA employees of putting verbal barriers between different members of the flying team is detrimental to all of the above.
If the factions of CC-despising pilots and pilot-hating cabin crew would find back to what is normal at most legacy carriers, namely friendly relations and the intent to look out for each other within an operating crew, this would go a long way to improving matters.
Last point; your attempt at engaging me in a p!ssing contest is Don Quixotic.
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Flaps
when you talk of arrogant you should read your posts!
The only person persisting with the crew / cabin crew / flt crew semantic is you.
I'm suggesting we move to the point in question , not the only thing only you seem to be interested in (which is another, and separate, issue).
And yes, your "sweeper" comment was deliberately rude and insulting.
I am part of an onboard crew, but did not train - during the strikes - as cabin crew!
Happy now?
What are you referring to?
when you talk of arrogant you should read your posts!
The only person persisting with the crew / cabin crew / flt crew semantic is you.
I'm suggesting we move to the point in question , not the only thing only you seem to be interested in (which is another, and separate, issue).
And yes, your "sweeper" comment was deliberately rude and insulting.
I am part of an onboard crew, but did not train - during the strikes - as cabin crew!
Happy now?
Do you always write posts this rude?
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Can I just say that, contrary to the impression you get from reading this thread, the vast majority of BA cabin crew and pilots get on very well. I work on E/F and I can tell you that it is a pleasure to work with all our airbus pilots.
This thread does seem to attract a very caustic kind of crew, both cabin and flight, and certainly does not reflect reality in BA or at least what I see on my flights.
I can see why you feel the way you do Flapsforty and at times I despair at some of the postings on here. Many of us who are not in the union anymore come on pprune to find out the latest information about the current situation at BA and in my case I often leave this thread feeling I have lost the will to live because some of the posters actually sound as if they hate crew and that's both kinds, flight and cabin.
This thread does seem to attract a very caustic kind of crew, both cabin and flight, and certainly does not reflect reality in BA or at least what I see on my flights.
I can see why you feel the way you do Flapsforty and at times I despair at some of the postings on here. Many of us who are not in the union anymore come on pprune to find out the latest information about the current situation at BA and in my case I often leave this thread feeling I have lost the will to live because some of the posters actually sound as if they hate crew and that's both kinds, flight and cabin.
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Letter from a BA shareholder
"Dear Mr McCluskey,
I am writing to congratulate you on becoming the new General Secretary of Unite the Union.
As you are aware, I have published open letters arguing that the quality of BA’s professional and experienced cabin crew is one of the few advantages left in flying with British Airways. Because of these letters and my subsequent involvements, I have witnessed first-hand the passion and enthusiasm of the cabin crew against a management that were trying to destroy the premium airline so loved by the crew.
However, I hope you would agree that Unite should and could have done better to help and represent the cabin crew in their dispute with BA’s management. It is undeniable that Unite’s badly organised campaign to convince the public that the cabin crew had no choice but to strike, has been most ineffective. Against a well managed and efficient BA publicity machine, Unite’s attempts looked amateurish.
Furthermore, Unite’s legal advisors have continuously failed to protect the cabin crew members against the brutal and most probably illegal behaviour of BA’s management. More importantly, Unite have lost important grounds to BA management during their negotiations probably because they lacked the benefit of competent professional and business advisors that BA had the support of.
I have read with interest your recent comments in the Financial Times. You stated that in your experience there is no such thing as an “irresponsible strike”. However, in modern day Britain there are many better ways than striking to protect the interest of your members . For example, in the case of British Airways, there was a golden opportunity for your Union to persuade BA’s large shareholders that contrary to what BA management were telling them, it made financial sense for BA to agree a fair settlement with the cabin crew long before there was a need to strike.
I hope you do not mind me writing this open letter criticizing the performance of your Union and agree that it is good to receive constructive criticism from an outsider with no vested interest.
Yours sincerely,"
No comment.
I am writing to congratulate you on becoming the new General Secretary of Unite the Union.
As you are aware, I have published open letters arguing that the quality of BA’s professional and experienced cabin crew is one of the few advantages left in flying with British Airways. Because of these letters and my subsequent involvements, I have witnessed first-hand the passion and enthusiasm of the cabin crew against a management that were trying to destroy the premium airline so loved by the crew.
However, I hope you would agree that Unite should and could have done better to help and represent the cabin crew in their dispute with BA’s management. It is undeniable that Unite’s badly organised campaign to convince the public that the cabin crew had no choice but to strike, has been most ineffective. Against a well managed and efficient BA publicity machine, Unite’s attempts looked amateurish.
Furthermore, Unite’s legal advisors have continuously failed to protect the cabin crew members against the brutal and most probably illegal behaviour of BA’s management. More importantly, Unite have lost important grounds to BA management during their negotiations probably because they lacked the benefit of competent professional and business advisors that BA had the support of.
I have read with interest your recent comments in the Financial Times. You stated that in your experience there is no such thing as an “irresponsible strike”. However, in modern day Britain there are many better ways than striking to protect the interest of your members . For example, in the case of British Airways, there was a golden opportunity for your Union to persuade BA’s large shareholders that contrary to what BA management were telling them, it made financial sense for BA to agree a fair settlement with the cabin crew long before there was a need to strike.
I hope you do not mind me writing this open letter criticizing the performance of your Union and agree that it is good to receive constructive criticism from an outsider with no vested interest.
Yours sincerely,"
No comment.
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Lost at sea
Bridchen, we might not agree on some things but I rather enjoyed that too, there is some spark on this forum!
The Blu Riband, on reflection I can see you are right, the SPIRIT of the FP never changed only the wording on the document to bring it back in line with the spirit.
Unfortunately, on board the aircraft you are my Commander but back at base we are managed by two different management structures. I believe this issue has highlighted how additional pressures such as IA can impact on their effectiveness and ability to communicate under the One Team concept.
Our management teams are like 2 boats riding the stormy seas of the recession. The Pilot Managers power boat zips about cutting through the waves whilst the IFCE barge lumbers on uncertainly. Should it seek refuge from the storm in the tiny port of Premium Carrier or head for safety in the larger port of Low Cost Carrier?
I believe the Pilots Management boat needs to throw a tow rope to the IFCE barge and lead her safely back whatever the port, butting heads or pulling in the wrong direction only leaves us all lost at sea.
As for being the victim of abuse in the workplace, I have a close friend who has bravely challenged this. A lengthy process impacts on the victim as much as the alleged abuser and I hope we will see speedier resolution to cases after Moltongate.
I agree the Company is dependant on a Union (or association) when communicating with the workforce and I have already stated I believe mistakes have been made during this dispute. It has certainly engaged the workforce and there is a greater awareness and questioning of BASSA. I believe there are changes and challenges to the way things are conducted, trust me there are some driven people who intend to make their voices heard.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
The Blu Riband, on reflection I can see you are right, the SPIRIT of the FP never changed only the wording on the document to bring it back in line with the spirit.
Unfortunately, on board the aircraft you are my Commander but back at base we are managed by two different management structures. I believe this issue has highlighted how additional pressures such as IA can impact on their effectiveness and ability to communicate under the One Team concept.
Our management teams are like 2 boats riding the stormy seas of the recession. The Pilot Managers power boat zips about cutting through the waves whilst the IFCE barge lumbers on uncertainly. Should it seek refuge from the storm in the tiny port of Premium Carrier or head for safety in the larger port of Low Cost Carrier?
I believe the Pilots Management boat needs to throw a tow rope to the IFCE barge and lead her safely back whatever the port, butting heads or pulling in the wrong direction only leaves us all lost at sea.
As for being the victim of abuse in the workplace, I have a close friend who has bravely challenged this. A lengthy process impacts on the victim as much as the alleged abuser and I hope we will see speedier resolution to cases after Moltongate.
I agree the Company is dependant on a Union (or association) when communicating with the workforce and I have already stated I believe mistakes have been made during this dispute. It has certainly engaged the workforce and there is a greater awareness and questioning of BASSA. I believe there are changes and challenges to the way things are conducted, trust me there are some driven people who intend to make their voices heard.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
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GS-Alpha,
On the face of is, no chance. However if the call for sickness appears in union related forums, who knows what the BA legal team would make of it. I am sure all the patterned sick data is ready.
It would be for Unite to defend because of the proof would be supplied.
On the face of is, no chance. However if the call for sickness appears in union related forums, who knows what the BA legal team would make of it. I am sure all the patterned sick data is ready.
It would be for Unite to defend because of the proof would be supplied.
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abuse
Midman, I keep getting drawn back to your post #1507, where you share your experience of ‘an hour of foul mouthed abuse, swearing and threats’.
As Cabin Crew we often have to deal with volatile situations. A combination of experience and above industry average customer service training gives us the skills to diffuse situations that can be very frightening for both crew and customers locked in a metal tube flying through the air at incredible speed.
I often find allowing someone to vent a little takes the steam out of them and you can then have a meaningful productive conversation. I have to confess even a rhino skinned old hostie like me could not tolerate what you describe.
I would have to move to another part of the bus or aircraft or leave the restaurant. I can’t help wondering, were you somehow restrained?
It sounds horrific and I suspect the police are now involved. The Company offer excellent support, don’t be too proud to seek help as traumatic experiences have a habit of creeping back up on you if you don’t acknowledge their impact and seek the help of professionals.
GS-Alpha, I suspect sickness is already higher, with the well documented posts on Union related forums of the health related side effects the stress of our IA has taken on both strikers and non strikers.
There will be the usual suspects who scream for strikes screaming they are going sick. We are caring Cabin Crew professionals who are fighting to have our status maintained and our Union recognised. Deliberately going sick will undermine that fight and is unfair on our customers and colleagues who are genuinely sick.
The cold and flu season as well as snow is upon us but one good thing to come out of our IA is the VCC who will be able to support any shortfall in the operation.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
As Cabin Crew we often have to deal with volatile situations. A combination of experience and above industry average customer service training gives us the skills to diffuse situations that can be very frightening for both crew and customers locked in a metal tube flying through the air at incredible speed.
I often find allowing someone to vent a little takes the steam out of them and you can then have a meaningful productive conversation. I have to confess even a rhino skinned old hostie like me could not tolerate what you describe.
I would have to move to another part of the bus or aircraft or leave the restaurant. I can’t help wondering, were you somehow restrained?
It sounds horrific and I suspect the police are now involved. The Company offer excellent support, don’t be too proud to seek help as traumatic experiences have a habit of creeping back up on you if you don’t acknowledge their impact and seek the help of professionals.
GS-Alpha, I suspect sickness is already higher, with the well documented posts on Union related forums of the health related side effects the stress of our IA has taken on both strikers and non strikers.
There will be the usual suspects who scream for strikes screaming they are going sick. We are caring Cabin Crew professionals who are fighting to have our status maintained and our Union recognised. Deliberately going sick will undermine that fight and is unfair on our customers and colleagues who are genuinely sick.
The cold and flu season as well as snow is upon us but one good thing to come out of our IA is the VCC who will be able to support any shortfall in the operation.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
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To be honest Flaps forty some of your comments have been a little terse. I can see why TBR reacted.
I don't profess any expertise except a piece of paper with JAA CRMIg flight and cabin crew on.
I don't profess any expertise except a piece of paper with JAA CRMIg flight and cabin crew on.
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Dingbaticus.. I agree there will be some who shout for strikes and screem however there will also be genuine people who are sick, I imagine more than most at this time due to the stress and toll that the last year has taken on people. We then need to remember the commuters who were employed by BA in their own contries with the prommise of commuter tickets. How will they get to work.. for those less informed crew these commuters are not going to sign a ticket for staff travel untill it is reinstated in full as it should be with fulll date of joing.
dave 3,
You are throwing 'red herrings' about again!
When BA employed foreign cabin crew part of the incentive was that they would be able to use staff travel - not that it was 'part of their package'!!
There is a huge difference!!
It would be much eaier if the wording was more akin to ' ST is a reward for those who support the company' that way we would not have all the mis-information that is presently going about.
You are throwing 'red herrings' about again!
When BA employed foreign cabin crew part of the incentive was that they would be able to use staff travel - not that it was 'part of their package'!!
There is a huge difference!!
It would be much eaier if the wording was more akin to ' ST is a reward for those who support the company' that way we would not have all the mis-information that is presently going about.
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Goodmorning Sporran thank you for your reply.. I would like to correct you the ST ifor commuters was part of the contract.. do you have one?. if so you could go and quote it I have mine but as I am away I am unable to quote but would be happy to do so when I get home.
Staff travel has never been a reward. Its something you pay for even with your free ticket.. it has discaplinary proceedures in place if you abuse the travel.. and those discaplinary porceedures rightly need to be followed to the full when staff travel is removed,
Staff travel has never been a reward. Its something you pay for even with your free ticket.. it has discaplinary proceedures in place if you abuse the travel.. and those discaplinary porceedures rightly need to be followed to the full when staff travel is removed,
Goodmorning Sporran thank you for your reply.. I would like to correct you the ST ifor commuters was part of the contract.. do you have one?. if so you could go and quote it I have mine but as I am away I am unable to quote but would be happy to do so when I get home.
Staff travel has never been a reward. Its something you pay for even with your free ticket.. it has discaplinary proceedures in place if you abuse the travel.. and those discaplinary porceedures rightly need to be followed to the full when staff travel is removed,
Staff travel has never been a reward. Its something you pay for even with your free ticket.. it has discaplinary proceedures in place if you abuse the travel.. and those discaplinary porceedures rightly need to be followed to the full when staff travel is removed,
The BA employment contract is very general indeed it has phrases like 'which can be varied at any time'. It requires you to carry out your duties as required by BA etc. I does not have specific promises to provide anything whatsoever.
Some crew who came from bases that had been closed had special arrangements for 'duty travel' tickets to get to and from work. Foreign nationals who were recruited by BA did not.