BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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This is the cabin crew forum.
Run for and by cabin crew.
This thread is being kept alive and run for the benefit of BA cabin crew to discuss their dispute in an impartial environment. So BA CC can talk about the matter without having to deal with brow beating from any side.
All others currently employed by an airline are welcome to join in.
That doesn´t mean this is a free for all "let´s stick it to cabin crew" thread.
Both striking and non striking BA CC are welcome to air their views on the BA CC dispute and discuss them here. Note it says CC, so not the pilots' deal, not the pilots' future, not the pilots' anything.
Everybody but CC is here on sufferance.
Everybody including CC needs to behave courteously and stick to the rules.
Failure to do so leads to loss of posting privileges.
Dingbaticus, this thread is, as said, about the BA CC dispute.
Emphatically not about the goings-on on other forums.
Discuss the dispute, not the three ring side-circus.
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flapsforty
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Run for and by cabin crew.
This thread is being kept alive and run for the benefit of BA cabin crew to discuss their dispute in an impartial environment. So BA CC can talk about the matter without having to deal with brow beating from any side.
All others currently employed by an airline are welcome to join in.
That doesn´t mean this is a free for all "let´s stick it to cabin crew" thread.
Both striking and non striking BA CC are welcome to air their views on the BA CC dispute and discuss them here. Note it says CC, so not the pilots' deal, not the pilots' future, not the pilots' anything.
Everybody but CC is here on sufferance.
Everybody including CC needs to behave courteously and stick to the rules.
Failure to do so leads to loss of posting privileges.
Dingbaticus, this thread is, as said, about the BA CC dispute.
Emphatically not about the goings-on on other forums.
Discuss the dispute, not the three ring side-circus.
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flapsforty
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To move on a bit... It seems LM has been speaking yesterday, in case you missed it..
That survey should make for some rather interesting reading I would imagine. I'm wondering how it will be conducted, I fully expect to see one drop through my letterbox despite no Unite member being in my household for nearly a year now - best get my pen ready...
Source: - http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/98108
..if you can bring yourself to read The Morning Star..!
Unite general secretary Len McCluskey attacked the "culture of fear" at British Airways today as he launched a drive to discover the level of "bullying and harassment" against cabin crew.
Mr McCluskey said the behaviour of the airline's management had been "disgraceful" in the wake of the bitter 14-month-long dispute over pay and conditions which remains deadlocked.
"We have launched a survey asking whether our members have been subjected to or have witnessed bullying, harassment or intimidation," he said.
Mr McCluskey said the behaviour of the airline's management had been "disgraceful" in the wake of the bitter 14-month-long dispute over pay and conditions which remains deadlocked.
"We have launched a survey asking whether our members have been subjected to or have witnessed bullying, harassment or intimidation," he said.
Source: - http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/98108
..if you can bring yourself to read The Morning Star..!
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BASSA members, and indeed UNITE members of the CC community have a track record of lukewarm engagement in union activities. The turn out for the consultative ballot and indeed the general turn out for the strike prove this. I suspect that this will lead to a skewed result.
The ones that will respond to such a survey will be the ones that are engaged with this dispute and will be the ones that feel that they have been harassed and bullied by BA. This trend will be strengthened by the those sickened by BASSA/UNITEs conduct of this dispute having already left the union. The pool of those remaining is therefore more politicised and extreme than the union membership was this time last year.
If LM was really interested about B&H he would be asking an independent company to consult all CC regardless of union affiliation over suspected B&H at work. I doubt this will happen and that LM is looking around for a cause to garner public support.
Sadly, the union leadership seems to seek out the emotion laden side issues rather than deal with the real issues. I suspect that this will end the way all such things have ended up during this dispute. BA will ignore them and the union will end up looking silly for it. It might grab a few headlines but it is unlikely to achieve anything positive for the CC.
BA will point to their robust B&H policy and the mandatory training that BA employees are put through and state that if there is any B&H going on then it should be reported immediately and it will be dealt with in accordance with the B&H policy.
The ones that will respond to such a survey will be the ones that are engaged with this dispute and will be the ones that feel that they have been harassed and bullied by BA. This trend will be strengthened by the those sickened by BASSA/UNITEs conduct of this dispute having already left the union. The pool of those remaining is therefore more politicised and extreme than the union membership was this time last year.
If LM was really interested about B&H he would be asking an independent company to consult all CC regardless of union affiliation over suspected B&H at work. I doubt this will happen and that LM is looking around for a cause to garner public support.
Sadly, the union leadership seems to seek out the emotion laden side issues rather than deal with the real issues. I suspect that this will end the way all such things have ended up during this dispute. BA will ignore them and the union will end up looking silly for it. It might grab a few headlines but it is unlikely to achieve anything positive for the CC.
BA will point to their robust B&H policy and the mandatory training that BA employees are put through and state that if there is any B&H going on then it should be reported immediately and it will be dealt with in accordance with the B&H policy.
In yesterday's BASSA newsletter, "DIGNITY - A DEFINING MOMENT", there was this:
Okay, so a hearing has been held and I believe that the person in question has been reinstated due no case to answer. If that is the position, is DH satisfied that BA's procedures (agreed with the unions) are satisfactory? Or does he still think those procedures don't meet his requirements?
For this now universally discredited British Airways management, the decision to suspend XXXXXX XXXXXX for simply organising a collection to support sacked fellow crew and their families over Christmas, and all that that means to people, could be that event.
For in that action, that one crass, heavy-handed, misjudged action, the very essence of what this whole dispute is about was there for all to see.
Dignity.
There can be no true peace until these wrongs are put right and Bill Francis et al have a change of heart on the way they do their business.
For in that action, that one crass, heavy-handed, misjudged action, the very essence of what this whole dispute is about was there for all to see.
Dignity.
There can be no true peace until these wrongs are put right and Bill Francis et al have a change of heart on the way they do their business.
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The Blu Riband, you accuse me of pressurising managers over the fraud policy – as this is a public forum I won’t be too specific but a CSD was investigated under the fraud policy for upgrading a staff passenger and feared the loss of their job. Like many CSDs, I was given written and verbal instructions regarding upholding the policy from my manager. Are you now claiming you have read my ess messages too?
As I am so ‘well documented’ you will know that I urged crew who complained about staff being given jumpseats or pilots using First for their rest that we should respect your terms and conditions, as that was what we were fighting for.
It is true I was unhappy at the way the fraud policy was changed but the change was not explained to me in the calm logical non aggressive words of Dexters Laboratory.
Instead I was subjected to boasts that it would be changed as a’ reward’ for ‘Backing BA’. I admit this was provocative to me, as I felt you are supposedly fellow trade Unionists breaking the fundamental principle of trade Unionism – the right to take part in legally voted for Industrial Action. You may claim to be an ‘Association’ but you are part of the TUC and you will note in my ‘documentation’ I do not continually scream, like many Cabin Crew, for your removal from the TUC.
As for both parties being suspended, I am referring to a move to end the petty suspensions such as Andrea Molton’s which resulted in public embarrassment to the Company at a sensitive time. She was fast tracked through the system to reinstate her yesterday, which will now understandably infuriate those still suspended. We need to stop the mad merry go round if we are to end hostilities.
Rape is a police matter and requires arrest, not suspension.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
As I am so ‘well documented’ you will know that I urged crew who complained about staff being given jumpseats or pilots using First for their rest that we should respect your terms and conditions, as that was what we were fighting for.
It is true I was unhappy at the way the fraud policy was changed but the change was not explained to me in the calm logical non aggressive words of Dexters Laboratory.
Instead I was subjected to boasts that it would be changed as a’ reward’ for ‘Backing BA’. I admit this was provocative to me, as I felt you are supposedly fellow trade Unionists breaking the fundamental principle of trade Unionism – the right to take part in legally voted for Industrial Action. You may claim to be an ‘Association’ but you are part of the TUC and you will note in my ‘documentation’ I do not continually scream, like many Cabin Crew, for your removal from the TUC.
As for both parties being suspended, I am referring to a move to end the petty suspensions such as Andrea Molton’s which resulted in public embarrassment to the Company at a sensitive time. She was fast tracked through the system to reinstate her yesterday, which will now understandably infuriate those still suspended. We need to stop the mad merry go round if we are to end hostilities.
Rape is a police matter and requires arrest, not suspension.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
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I felt you are supposedly fellow trade Unionists breaking the fundamental principle of trade Unionism – the right to take part in legally voted for Industrial Action. You may claim to be an ‘Association’ but you are part of the TUC and you will note in my ‘documentation’ I do not continually scream, like many Cabin Crew, for your removal from the TUC.
I am a member of Balpa which IS an association, and a member of the TUC.
I am proud of the work Balpa conducts for the good of all of us , particularly regarding ftl's and safety standards generally. I have rarely been more proud than when Jim Macauslan spoke against the call for unrest and general strikes at the TUC conference.
The difference between the work Balpa does, and the level of commitment and professionalism of its reps, and the shambles that is Bassa, is truly indescribable.
The knowledge and endeavour that has gone into successive pension changes attests to that.
terms and conditions, as that was what we were fighting for.
I'm glad that Andrea was reinstated so quickly. That a complaint was made was unfortunate and would have to be investigated. I'm reassured that BA's procedures are sound.
CSD was investigated under the fraud policy
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The resulting complaints to management of 'fraud' were not dealt with well by IFS managers who just repeated the 'no fraud' mantra. When they passed cabin crew complaints to Flight Ops management, they were told it was within the Captain's authority, and no action would be taken. When a cabin crew member then complained in writing to Asset Protection, a full clarification was made available, ensuring no doubt existed about the ability of the Captain to make seating changes once the doors are shut. There was never a boast from anyone about "Backing BA" bestowing extra privileges on pilots, there were merely accusations of such on cf and other forums.
Altogether a totally self-inflicted problem, created by a few militants looking to right the wrongs they felt had been imposed on them.
I admit this was provocative to me, as I felt you are supposedly fellow trade Unionists breaking the fundamental principle of trade Unionism – the right to take part in legally voted for Industrial Action. You may claim to be an ‘Association’ but you are part of the TUC...
As both parties being suspended, I am referring to a move to end the petty suspensions such as Andrea Molton’s which resulted in public embarrassment to the Company at a sensitive time. She was fast tracked through the system to reinstate her yesterday, which will now understandably infuriate those still suspended. We need to stop the mad merry go round if we are to end hostilities.
I'm sure the person who gave me an hour of foul mouthed abuse, swearing and threats would have claimed total innocence.
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‘They haven’t got the stomach for a fight.’
A fellow crew member was challenged by someone who sneered ‘What gives you the right to fight this?’
‘Being a woman gives me the right’ came her reply.
On paper a workforce comprising a high number of females and gay men looked unlikely to put up resistance. However, these social groups have had to fight for equality in the past and were not prepared to have their status downgraded by techniques such as In Touch Days that appeared designed to question their worth.
We also have a higher number of straight male stewards compared to other UK airlines. This is because the role of Cabin Crew at BA is seen as a career, requiring higher people skills than low cost carriers and pays well enough to support a family.
You may not agree with what we are fighting for but please don’t dismiss us as a ‘nutty minority’. All three of the above social groups felt threatened by the belief that our Union’s right to collectively negotiate was being destroyed and we were united in what we perceive to be our own ‘fight for survival’.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
Midman, I agree not all the suspensions will be petty but I believe there are some as petty as Andreas and they have not been fast tracked. I hope this might be a sign of things to come as it is stressful for both the victims and the suspendees.
There are many cases coming to court too, which will bring them into the public arena and we will be able to make our own conclusions about the severity of the accusations.
The CSD who was investigated did have the investigation dropped because the seat used was blocked, not available for sale and so no fraud occurred. Had it been available for sale it may have been a different story and this concerned the CSD community.
The Fraud Policy document was changed – a line was removed.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
A fellow crew member was challenged by someone who sneered ‘What gives you the right to fight this?’
‘Being a woman gives me the right’ came her reply.
On paper a workforce comprising a high number of females and gay men looked unlikely to put up resistance. However, these social groups have had to fight for equality in the past and were not prepared to have their status downgraded by techniques such as In Touch Days that appeared designed to question their worth.
We also have a higher number of straight male stewards compared to other UK airlines. This is because the role of Cabin Crew at BA is seen as a career, requiring higher people skills than low cost carriers and pays well enough to support a family.
You may not agree with what we are fighting for but please don’t dismiss us as a ‘nutty minority’. All three of the above social groups felt threatened by the belief that our Union’s right to collectively negotiate was being destroyed and we were united in what we perceive to be our own ‘fight for survival’.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
Midman, I agree not all the suspensions will be petty but I believe there are some as petty as Andreas and they have not been fast tracked. I hope this might be a sign of things to come as it is stressful for both the victims and the suspendees.
There are many cases coming to court too, which will bring them into the public arena and we will be able to make our own conclusions about the severity of the accusations.
The CSD who was investigated did have the investigation dropped because the seat used was blocked, not available for sale and so no fraud occurred. Had it been available for sale it may have been a different story and this concerned the CSD community.
The Fraud Policy document was changed – a line was removed.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
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On paper a workforce comprising a high number of females and gay men looked unlikely to put up resistance..........We also have a higher number of straight male stewards compared to other UK airlines....
The CSD who was investigated did have the investigation dropped because the seat used was blocked, not available for sale and so no fraud occurred. Had it been available for sale it may have been a different story and this concerned the CSD community.
And what of the popular tale of the CSD suspended for upgrading a Captains wife? Truth or fiction? (Hint: I know the answer to that)
The Fraud Policy document was changed – a line was removed.
The BASI document is the Fraud Policy, not the letter you got from IFCE which stated things that might be considered fraud. The former is the BA rule, the latter is not. It is important to distinguish between an actual change in the policy and a change in a letter referring to the policy.
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Dingbat,
You imply that the fraud investigation was halted because of the seat being 'blocked'. Galley FM's version? Or was it halted because it had been stated several times that upgrading on board the aircraft for no reward wasn't fraud? Some wanted to get back at pilots by claiming fraud for upgrading, but the problem was, some cabin crew decided to drop their own colleagues in it too, when they saw what their forumite friends considered fraud.
As for suspending both parties, if you were the subject of a prolonged foul-mouthed verbal attack because of the position you took regarding IA, would you expect to be suspended too?
Remember this is a disciplinary procedure signed up to by Unite, and doesn't allow such a provision, nor does natural justice.
You imply that the fraud investigation was halted because of the seat being 'blocked'. Galley FM's version? Or was it halted because it had been stated several times that upgrading on board the aircraft for no reward wasn't fraud? Some wanted to get back at pilots by claiming fraud for upgrading, but the problem was, some cabin crew decided to drop their own colleagues in it too, when they saw what their forumite friends considered fraud.
As for suspending both parties, if you were the subject of a prolonged foul-mouthed verbal attack because of the position you took regarding IA, would you expect to be suspended too?
Remember this is a disciplinary procedure signed up to by Unite, and doesn't allow such a provision, nor does natural justice.
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Come off it Blu Riband
and midman
At least the British Dental Association recognises it is a union and says so.
However, I understand that the acronym BALPU
would not sound quite right when used on the radio or television.
I am a member of Balpa which IS an association, and a member of the TUC.
and midman
I do not consider myself a trades unionist, and nor, I believe, do the vast majority of my colleagues.
At least the British Dental Association recognises it is a union and says so.
However, I understand that the acronym BALPU
would not sound quite right when used on the radio or television.
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Stiffco,
I may be a member of an association that is an associate member of the TUC, but I would prefer it not to be, and I don't subscribe to what you would call the principles of trades unionism, and would like to see the powers of unions further curtailed. If that's what you call a trades unionist, then yes, I am.
However, if your world view requires a member of such an association to respect trades unionist principles and act in solidarity in support of other workers, then you're mistaken. My world view doesn't, and that's what counts in determining my decisions regarding other groups' IA.
I may be a member of an association that is an associate member of the TUC, but I would prefer it not to be, and I don't subscribe to what you would call the principles of trades unionism, and would like to see the powers of unions further curtailed. If that's what you call a trades unionist, then yes, I am.
However, if your world view requires a member of such an association to respect trades unionist principles and act in solidarity in support of other workers, then you're mistaken. My world view doesn't, and that's what counts in determining my decisions regarding other groups' IA.
Last edited by midman; 27th Nov 2010 at 23:57.
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Stiffco
I suspect most members of BALPA, and I definitely include myself in this, did not join with any consideration towards the greater trades union movement. For me it was the only option for collective bargaining/negotiation with the company.
It seems that this is arrangement is one which not only BALPA members are happy with but also the company seems to encourage. How would it be possible to negotiate individual term and conditions for 40,000 employees. It is also this which makes the BASSA argument that BA is anti union complete nonsense! It is completely in their interest as a company to have group negotiation. It is a business, whose decisions are cost driven both long and short term. To remove unions would not be cost effective. However if a negotiating body proves utterly ineffective in either gathering the views of the majority of their associates or in putting those views to the company in business terms, rhetoric and emotion free then are practically useless. BASSA are proving to be, unfortunately for their current and past members ineffective as a group negotiating body.
The fact that being an association affiliated with the TUC comes as part of the BALPA package does not mean that their would be any solidarity for the likes of a general strike. Even in principle let alone practice. To me it is deeply unfortunate that the requirement for moderate negotiation on behalf of a work group can even be considered under the same umbrella as more militant trades unionism.
Let us hope that some sense prevails amongst those with the ability do make change and before another call to strike is encouraged by any 'union' they consider just what is the best future outcome for the majority of their current and potential future membership. Not what their wish list is, but what is actually achievable.
I truly wish the moderate crew luck in the coming months. The atmosphere at work recently has been steadily improving. Most are jaded by the continued background rumble of the few militants. I hope the numerically few hotheads still spitting bile realise that most others are looking forward not clinging onto what has now gone. Much to the shame of BASSA it did not need to be this painful.
Let's hope the end is in sight.
Jazzy
I suspect most members of BALPA, and I definitely include myself in this, did not join with any consideration towards the greater trades union movement. For me it was the only option for collective bargaining/negotiation with the company.
It seems that this is arrangement is one which not only BALPA members are happy with but also the company seems to encourage. How would it be possible to negotiate individual term and conditions for 40,000 employees. It is also this which makes the BASSA argument that BA is anti union complete nonsense! It is completely in their interest as a company to have group negotiation. It is a business, whose decisions are cost driven both long and short term. To remove unions would not be cost effective. However if a negotiating body proves utterly ineffective in either gathering the views of the majority of their associates or in putting those views to the company in business terms, rhetoric and emotion free then are practically useless. BASSA are proving to be, unfortunately for their current and past members ineffective as a group negotiating body.
The fact that being an association affiliated with the TUC comes as part of the BALPA package does not mean that their would be any solidarity for the likes of a general strike. Even in principle let alone practice. To me it is deeply unfortunate that the requirement for moderate negotiation on behalf of a work group can even be considered under the same umbrella as more militant trades unionism.
Let us hope that some sense prevails amongst those with the ability do make change and before another call to strike is encouraged by any 'union' they consider just what is the best future outcome for the majority of their current and potential future membership. Not what their wish list is, but what is actually achievable.
I truly wish the moderate crew luck in the coming months. The atmosphere at work recently has been steadily improving. Most are jaded by the continued background rumble of the few militants. I hope the numerically few hotheads still spitting bile realise that most others are looking forward not clinging onto what has now gone. Much to the shame of BASSA it did not need to be this painful.
Let's hope the end is in sight.
Jazzy
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midman
Your position is fully understood and appreciated.
You do not have to be a golfer in order to belong to a golf club, just as you do not have to be a militant red to belong to a union.
However, the holier than thou stance taken by members of associations – that clearly undertake all the tasks carried out by unions (albeit in a much more professional and effective way. Which I applaud) will not wash with me.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck ...
Jazzy,
... and just why do you think most people join a union? All staff require a method of negotiating with the company.
As for the rest of your post - fully agree
Your position is fully understood and appreciated.
You do not have to be a golfer in order to belong to a golf club, just as you do not have to be a militant red to belong to a union.
However, the holier than thou stance taken by members of associations – that clearly undertake all the tasks carried out by unions (albeit in a much more professional and effective way. Which I applaud) will not wash with me.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck ...
Jazzy,
I suspect most members of BALPA, and I definitely include myself in this, did not join with any consideration towards the greater trades union movement. For me it was the only option for collective bargaining/negotiation with the company.
As for the rest of your post - fully agree
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Stiffco
Just to clarify my view, which is similar to those above.
I am a member of Balpa, which is called an Association, and a member of the TUC.
I am not inclined to do want I do not think is right.
I am not political. I have no axe to grind with either management or any particular social group. Nor do I have a chip on my shoulder about being in some minority such as those referred to by Dingbat.
Therefore I would not support Bassa automatically just because we are all members of the TUC.
Neither would I do what Balpa told me if I didn't believe in the cause.
I did not train as crew because I'm on the 777 and we were told not to apply by BA because the 777's were all going to operate. So I never had to make that decision.
Balpa did not tell any members what to do, one way or the other.
Just to clarify my view, which is similar to those above.
I am a member of Balpa, which is called an Association, and a member of the TUC.
I am not inclined to do want I do not think is right.
I am not political. I have no axe to grind with either management or any particular social group. Nor do I have a chip on my shoulder about being in some minority such as those referred to by Dingbat.
Therefore I would not support Bassa automatically just because we are all members of the TUC.
Neither would I do what Balpa told me if I didn't believe in the cause.
I did not train as crew because I'm on the 777 and we were told not to apply by BA because the 777's were all going to operate. So I never had to make that decision.
Balpa did not tell any members what to do, one way or the other.
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‘Being a woman gives me the right’ came her reply.
On paper a workforce comprising a high number of females and gay men looked unlikely to put up resistance.
On paper a workforce comprising a high number of females and gay men looked unlikely to put up resistance.
The trouble has been that ..................... You were wrong!
Wrong about the issues
and wrong to think you could win.
So instead, the only statement you've succeeded in making is " look how dumb we are".
Now, you need to be asking yourselves what to do next . Because continuing along the same path is equally unwise. As is blaming others for the trouble you have caused yourselves.
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Going to go for the prize for most cliche ridden post!
Blaming sexual gender and orientation - I do think that might be desperation. Clutching at straws and any port in a storm springs to mind - let's have action just because??
It so smacks of "what have the Romans ever given us" that it would be funny if it weren't so tragic
Blaming sexual gender and orientation - I do think that might be desperation. Clutching at straws and any port in a storm springs to mind - let's have action just because??
It so smacks of "what have the Romans ever given us" that it would be funny if it weren't so tragic
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"Being a woman gives me the right," came her reply.
As a community you really, really need to get away from the idea that this is some sort of socio-economic attack on you because of who or what you choose to define yourself as.
I'm a female cabin crew member who didn't go on strike. I have never heard anyone, whether they're gay, straight, female, male, bla bla bla, talk about the strike before, as incorporating these issues.
I didn't choose to work through the strike because I'm anti the feminist movement, or gay rights. The strike was NEVER about that.
As a very quick aside, Yellow Pen - you are incorrect to state "as a community." As you well know, as a community we were not united in the strike, so your comment is irrelevant. This is a non-issue that's been fired up by a silly remark by a female crew member, who obviously finds it difficult to be logical or make sense.
If one female cabin crew member decided to say that, then good luck to her social life - listening to her must be like watching paint dry. Anyone who feels they've suffered an extreme injustice should want to fight it, regardless of their gender, etc. The problem here was that BASSA waived ALL crew's rights by non-negotiation, and that was why a lot of us went into work.
Last edited by Bridchen; 28th Nov 2010 at 13:26. Reason: Added a post-script
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