BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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That explains a lot for me too Bettygirl. Clearly this journey that BV decided to take Amicus on was as unwelcome among the reps as it was to most of its members. In my resignation letter I told them that if they had let the Amicus members have a separate ballot the answer would have been a resounding NO! Clearly if only 40 took IA and those not even reps then I was right and we should never have been taken into this dispute at all. On past form, Amicus should have hit the negotiating room and come out with an agreement which we could have signed up for and BASSA would have had to live with (rather like 1997). Poorly done Amicus!!
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Totally agree ottagirl.
Just cannot understand how the current Amicus reps can think they have a mandate to say and do what they have just done, if only 40 people including themselves went on strike.
So pleased I left them. Can't think that they can actually have many members now anyway.
Just cannot understand how the current Amicus reps can think they have a mandate to say and do what they have just done, if only 40 people including themselves went on strike.
So pleased I left them. Can't think that they can actually have many members now anyway.
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Seems total membership is in the tens of people! PCCC get ready to steal!
The message on the website is inviting those few members to offer a vote of confidence, hope they haven't put too much time aside for the counting!
The message on the website is inviting those few members to offer a vote of confidence, hope they haven't put too much time aside for the counting!
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I think it is clear that Unite have cut them adrift now and two of the remaining reps have jumped ship already and joined Bassa, so I think that's the end of Amicus and that is truly a shame.
I don't agree with what they have done during this dispute but since Amicus and Bassa both became part of Unite, Amicus had lost it's voice more or less. It is now obvious that most of the more moderate reps jumped ship along time ago as I expect their more moderate views were not being listened to by the Bassa majority. Now the ones left have actually ended up causing Bassa no end of trouble!!
I don't agree with what they have done during this dispute but since Amicus and Bassa both became part of Unite, Amicus had lost it's voice more or less. It is now obvious that most of the more moderate reps jumped ship along time ago as I expect their more moderate views were not being listened to by the Bassa majority. Now the ones left have actually ended up causing Bassa no end of trouble!!
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Under Unite's constitution it can force the merger of branches. There was a comment in the CC89 recent posts on the UniteBA site that suggested that this had been mentioned in recent meetings. I think that it may have been pushed through. It makes life a bit easier for Unite in that there is only one branch to try and deal with - BASSA. The meberhip don't have a say in this at all. It just has to be agreed at Regional or Excutive council level. Net result is likely to be that the remaining CC89 members jump ship, but that is no skin off Tony Woodley's nose.
I do get the impression that BASSA are expecting Len McCluskey to romp home in the Gen Sec race and then to support them. They really haven't got a clue about the legal aspects of strikes, poor dears. They want Duncan's List to be the start point for negotiations. Anyone with a happ'orth of common sense can see that BA will not blindly accept these items. BASSA expect that if BA don't come up with a deal that accommodates them, that Unite will allow them a strike ballot. But they haven't exhausted all avenues, so the union would be in deep brown smelly stuff if they allowed the branch to go for a strike ballot. Why ? Because they failed to put the previous offer to the membership. Then there is the small issue of the reason for any further strikes. Looking at Lizanne's diatribe it seems she is thinking of using the same reasons as deployed last time around. Unite won't wear that as they don't want to get saddled with yet more expensive litigation and loss of income. Frankly I am amazed that someone who sits on the Unite Executive committee can come up with such a load of tosh.
It's going to get very messy. If BASSA do go for further strike action, expect the BA legal team's kid gloves to come off.
I do get the impression that BASSA are expecting Len McCluskey to romp home in the Gen Sec race and then to support them. They really haven't got a clue about the legal aspects of strikes, poor dears. They want Duncan's List to be the start point for negotiations. Anyone with a happ'orth of common sense can see that BA will not blindly accept these items. BASSA expect that if BA don't come up with a deal that accommodates them, that Unite will allow them a strike ballot. But they haven't exhausted all avenues, so the union would be in deep brown smelly stuff if they allowed the branch to go for a strike ballot. Why ? Because they failed to put the previous offer to the membership. Then there is the small issue of the reason for any further strikes. Looking at Lizanne's diatribe it seems she is thinking of using the same reasons as deployed last time around. Unite won't wear that as they don't want to get saddled with yet more expensive litigation and loss of income. Frankly I am amazed that someone who sits on the Unite Executive committee can come up with such a load of tosh.
It's going to get very messy. If BASSA do go for further strike action, expect the BA legal team's kid gloves to come off.
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In regards to the big song and dance about MF. My view is this: if you're confident that you provide the best service you can (regardless of fleet), you socialise when you can/want, you use CRM to its purpose (the real purpose, not the huggy fluffy version) and you show respect to everyone you work with/meet on your travels etc - why get so upset by the few pilots on here going on about how marvellous MF is?
Yes, we all know that MF crew are fresh, keen, eager to please and not forgetting - on probation. These crew will show their best side to all concerned. Heck, I remember having a permanent cheesy grin on my face for a long time when I started flying. My grin isn't as cheesy and cheerleader-like these days, but it's genuine. I still do really really like my job, and I do want to do the best I can.
My point is: for those who get upset with some people on here posting negative comments about non-MF crew, just be your professional self. Be courteous, polite, show respect and great customer service. Show them what you're made of. Prove them wrong. Simple as that. There's no point saying on here how great you are and how great our fellow CC are. Have the confidence to prove it. Inspire those who need it. Motivate those who aren't "feeling the love" just now.
Positives breeds positives. Pretty much everyone likes to be around happy people. Let's show them how it's done.
I know it can be hard and tiring, but we can do it. Just for the record, I don't live on cloud 9, but I believe that if we all start small we'll get there sooner than we think. I just want us to do our very best. Join in, make it happen!
I will get round to the other issues later - I just wanted to post something that I hope will be inspirational and positive.
Yes, we all know that MF crew are fresh, keen, eager to please and not forgetting - on probation. These crew will show their best side to all concerned. Heck, I remember having a permanent cheesy grin on my face for a long time when I started flying. My grin isn't as cheesy and cheerleader-like these days, but it's genuine. I still do really really like my job, and I do want to do the best I can.
My point is: for those who get upset with some people on here posting negative comments about non-MF crew, just be your professional self. Be courteous, polite, show respect and great customer service. Show them what you're made of. Prove them wrong. Simple as that. There's no point saying on here how great you are and how great our fellow CC are. Have the confidence to prove it. Inspire those who need it. Motivate those who aren't "feeling the love" just now.
Positives breeds positives. Pretty much everyone likes to be around happy people. Let's show them how it's done.
I know it can be hard and tiring, but we can do it. Just for the record, I don't live on cloud 9, but I believe that if we all start small we'll get there sooner than we think. I just want us to do our very best. Join in, make it happen!
I will get round to the other issues later - I just wanted to post something that I hope will be inspirational and positive.
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I totally agree, midLGW. That was a very good post. It's not about hats or other people's opinions of you. Stop worrying. If you do the best job you can, and are proud of yourself, you don't need a hat or other people's rubber stamps to underline it.
I really love my job (well, like everything, it has it's moments!
), and I also love coming home and my life outside my job. Try not to live in this current problem for most of the time, or it'll be difficult to keep a balanced view on it, and you will worry unnecessarily. Take opinions and criticism from people you trust and admire.
This dispute will end, and the nastiness will stop. The bitter people who won't let it go, or try to find a realistic solution, will be the real losers. Who wants to live like that indefinitely?
I really love my job (well, like everything, it has it's moments!
), and I also love coming home and my life outside my job. Try not to live in this current problem for most of the time, or it'll be difficult to keep a balanced view on it, and you will worry unnecessarily. Take opinions and criticism from people you trust and admire.This dispute will end, and the nastiness will stop. The bitter people who won't let it go, or try to find a realistic solution, will be the real losers. Who wants to live like that indefinitely?
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Thanks for that MIDLGW and Bridchen,
I think you are both right. I have been upset by some of the postings but as you say, it's best to trust those that you know and after talking to pilots on line I have realised that I have been silly to let these things get to me.
Thanks for your wise words.
I think you are both right. I have been upset by some of the postings but as you say, it's best to trust those that you know and after talking to pilots on line I have realised that I have been silly to let these things get to me.
Thanks for your wise words.
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Betty I'm surprised that noe one noticed that you made the sunday times business section this week. The heading was "Trolly dollies in hat spat" and it referred to your posts on here. The funniest bit was the cartoon.
There was a picture of an FA in a BA hat, standing next to a Qantas stewardess in her hat. I know they don't have them either, I guess that's why the Qantas girl was wearing a firemans hat. Hilarious.
There was a picture of an FA in a BA hat, standing next to a Qantas stewardess in her hat. I know they don't have them either, I guess that's why the Qantas girl was wearing a firemans hat. Hilarious.
Under Unite's constitution it can force the merger of branches. There was a comment in the CC89 recent posts on the UniteBA site that suggested that this had been mentioned in recent meetings. I think that it may have been pushed through. It makes life a bit easier for Unite in that there is only one branch to try and deal with - BASSA. The meberhip don't have a say in this at all. It just has to be agreed at Regional or Excutive council level. Net result is likely to be that the remaining CC89 members jump ship, but that is no skin off Tony Woodley's nose.
CC89 merged with the AEEU in much the same way that the TGWU has merged with Amicus to form Unite.
A much smaller merger but a merger non the less. Amicus/CC89 is just the BA branch of CC89 which also represents Virgin, BMI, Monarch and dozens of other airlines.
They form part of what is known as the FPA (Federation of Professional Associations) which is a separate organisation within the Amicus part of Unite.
Unite would like to get rid of it but it is not that simple.
Merging CC89 and BASSA could lead to a legal case if it was done without the consent of the members of CC89.
The current reps in Amicus/CC89 have not got the knowledge or the skills to do this or, indeed, to resist it.
Good old Lenny; will steamroller them if he is elected as 'Grand Poo Pah' of Unite though.
So lets wait and see
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Hi NG and DG,
Did not see the article. Can you post it?
If it makes me look like an idiot don't bother though, had a bad enough time, when I mentioned it the first time!!!
Maybe the Quantas girl had the fireman's hat because of the engine problems!!
Did not see the article. Can you post it?
If it makes me look like an idiot don't bother though, had a bad enough time, when I mentioned it the first time!!!
Maybe the Quantas girl had the fireman's hat because of the engine problems!!
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hi Betty
it didn't make you look like an idiot, it was a cartoon and only we know it was you. You are right the Qantas girl had the fire hat on because of the recent problems they have had. It was funny!
it didn't make you look like an idiot, it was a cartoon and only we know it was you. You are right the Qantas girl had the fire hat on because of the recent problems they have had. It was funny!
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Dingbaticus
Following further information and a review by the site moderators, user Dingbaticus's first post dated 18th November has been reinstated. It seems he/she had been caught in the crossfire of a recent spate of troll-registrations. Apologies.
If anybody is thinking of registering just to troll this forum, then please don't; it wastes our time, your time and the time belonging to all the serious contributors to this thread.
CC Forum Moderators
If anybody is thinking of registering just to troll this forum, then please don't; it wastes our time, your time and the time belonging to all the serious contributors to this thread.
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One of the reasons you have heard little reasoned argument from Cabin Crew is fear of dialogue, especially through the internet. Whilst the ‘Bassa mentalists’ enjoy a good rant, the more moderate crew are wary of posting, due to the danger of dismissal for breaking Company regulations.
The Facebook debacles sadly taught us the dangers of expressing our thoughts in a public arena. The very public nature of pprune means it is considered by some to be ‘extreme surfing’, only for the very brave or very stupid! The hat debate making it into the newspapers as a cartoon proves how much we need to take care of what we post!
They say the first casualty of war is the truth and I personally believe both sides have employed the use of spin. There is disagreement about the exact number who took IA but I really want to bust the myth that it is just a ‘nutty minority’.
Just because the CSD does not brandish a yellow pen when you introduce yourself in the briefing or come marching into the flight deck waving a Unite flag when they give you their security checks does not necessarily mean they came to work!
Incidentally the yellow pen signifies support for the suspended and sacked, not that you took IA. Unfortunately others do not understand its meaning and then it unwittingly becomes become intimidatory.
Along with a number of my peers I feel it is important for CRM that every member of the team can look to me for support and trusts me. I believe in our industry it is vital that individuals feel safe and valued. That starts in the briefing where both the CSD and Captain set the tone. It has to be a balance between establishing the rules without alienating the team – a very tricky balancing act. If a CSD makes it obvious they took part in IA in the briefing, they have instantly alienated crew with a different view which is bad for CRM.
I don’t know the exact number who took IA but just because someone did, don’t assume they are unprofessional and don’t care about their Company or customers. It’s far more complex than that and with such a diverse community you will find a variety of motivating factors.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions.
The Facebook debacles sadly taught us the dangers of expressing our thoughts in a public arena. The very public nature of pprune means it is considered by some to be ‘extreme surfing’, only for the very brave or very stupid! The hat debate making it into the newspapers as a cartoon proves how much we need to take care of what we post!
They say the first casualty of war is the truth and I personally believe both sides have employed the use of spin. There is disagreement about the exact number who took IA but I really want to bust the myth that it is just a ‘nutty minority’.
Just because the CSD does not brandish a yellow pen when you introduce yourself in the briefing or come marching into the flight deck waving a Unite flag when they give you their security checks does not necessarily mean they came to work!
Incidentally the yellow pen signifies support for the suspended and sacked, not that you took IA. Unfortunately others do not understand its meaning and then it unwittingly becomes become intimidatory.
Along with a number of my peers I feel it is important for CRM that every member of the team can look to me for support and trusts me. I believe in our industry it is vital that individuals feel safe and valued. That starts in the briefing where both the CSD and Captain set the tone. It has to be a balance between establishing the rules without alienating the team – a very tricky balancing act. If a CSD makes it obvious they took part in IA in the briefing, they have instantly alienated crew with a different view which is bad for CRM.
I don’t know the exact number who took IA but just because someone did, don’t assume they are unprofessional and don’t care about their Company or customers. It’s far more complex than that and with such a diverse community you will find a variety of motivating factors.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions.
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YP, as made clear here numerous times, what goes on on other forums does not fall within PPRuNe´s remit.
Discuss posts made here on their own merits.
If you are unable to do so, do not post.
CC Forum Moderators.
Discuss posts made here on their own merits.
If you are unable to do so, do not post.
CC Forum Moderators.
Dingb,
You say
Can you not see why "support" for CC, some of whom were dismissed for outrageous intimidation and bullying, could be a problem? While it may be the case that some offences were less serious than others, the banding of "all disciplined crew" together does your cause no favours.
Also interesting to see that Len M got just over 100,000 votes. Were all of Unite's 1.4 million members not eligable to vote? If so, that's less than 10% of the membership publicly backing him.
You say
Incidentally the yellow pen signifies support for the suspended and sacked
Also interesting to see that Len M got just over 100,000 votes. Were all of Unite's 1.4 million members not eligable to vote? If so, that's less than 10% of the membership publicly backing him.
Last edited by Flap62; 21st Nov 2010 at 16:12.
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Dingbaticus
Rubbish, only the naive would not know how to hide their identity.
Dress it up how you want, but you should know B & H is all about perception of the person who receives it, try putting yourself in their position
One of the reasons you have heard little reasoned argument from Cabin Crew is fear of dialogue, especially through the internet. Whilst the ‘Bassa mentalists’ enjoy a good rant, the more moderate crew are wary of posting, due to the danger of dismissal for breaking Company regulations.
Incidentally the yellow pen signifies support for the suspended and sacked, not that you took IA. Unfortunately others do not understand its meaning and then it unwittingly becomes become intimidatory.
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If you read my post you will see that i do indeed understand how something like a yellow pen, which is not intended as a symbol of intimidation but one of support, can be perceived as intimidatory. That is why I consciously don't wave one around.
I agree that some of the sacked and suspended may be guilty of acts which have deservedly seen them ejected from the Company.
I would point out though that I strongly believe that some have been caught up as collaterol damage, something that is not uncommon in industrial disputes.
I believe that is why there has never (as far as I am aware) been a call to reinstate all the suspended and sacked, I believe DH 's request is for ACAS arbitration in the cases.
As for keeping identites secret, allegedly two of the sacked are due to postings they made under pseudonyms on a private forum. That is why many are now fearful even to post on private forums let alone a public one like this.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
I agree that some of the sacked and suspended may be guilty of acts which have deservedly seen them ejected from the Company.
I would point out though that I strongly believe that some have been caught up as collaterol damage, something that is not uncommon in industrial disputes.
I believe that is why there has never (as far as I am aware) been a call to reinstate all the suspended and sacked, I believe DH 's request is for ACAS arbitration in the cases.
As for keeping identites secret, allegedly two of the sacked are due to postings they made under pseudonyms on a private forum. That is why many are now fearful even to post on private forums let alone a public one like this.
The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions
Dingbaticus,
The 'personal nature' of this dispute has only come from one side - that of bassa.
For WW and the LT it has all been about business, business, business:
- the business of ensuring that management run the company,
- the business of ensuring that bassa does not run the company, and
- the business of ensuring that cabin crew make their allocation of cost savings - JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT.
I certainly hope that Keith Williams, the new CEO, keeps up the efforts to ensure that bassa are firmly 'put in their place'!!
The 'personal nature' of this dispute has only come from one side - that of bassa.
For WW and the LT it has all been about business, business, business:
- the business of ensuring that management run the company,
- the business of ensuring that bassa does not run the company, and
- the business of ensuring that cabin crew make their allocation of cost savings - JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT.
I certainly hope that Keith Williams, the new CEO, keeps up the efforts to ensure that bassa are firmly 'put in their place'!!
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Well,
Didn't Len get a good turn out. Not only do BASSA call IA on a majority of a minority even the parent Union can't motivated their members to vote on a simple little, non important vote such as the leadership. 100,000 votes from a membership of 1.4 Million? It beggars belief!
Just for clarification (I run a forum) as a forum operator you are required to keep a record of all members, their E-Mail addresses and their ISP/IP numbers. These information files must be made accessable to the relevant autorities for, I believe (or at least I keep them this long!) two years. That makes all posts traceable and all threats, libel etc, accountable. If you read the forum small print you will find it all there, anonymity doesn't exist.
The colour yellow was touted, originally, as a colour that could be used to 'define' those taking part in the strike. The 'call to arms' from BASSA for the Kempton/Sandown park meetings was to show solidarity and wear yellow. It was only afterwards that the idea of yelloow 'supporting' the loss of life at Manchester was used. That never was, nor has ever been the original purpose of the 'yellow' which enables those who took part to recognise each other in a way that the company cannot influence thus enforcing the 'them and us'. To take it as anything else is naivety.
Didn't Len get a good turn out. Not only do BASSA call IA on a majority of a minority even the parent Union can't motivated their members to vote on a simple little, non important vote such as the leadership. 100,000 votes from a membership of 1.4 Million? It beggars belief!
As for keeping identites secret, allegedly two of the sacked are due to postings they made under pseudonyms on a private forum. That is why many are now fearful even to post on private forums let alone a public one like this.
The colour yellow was touted, originally, as a colour that could be used to 'define' those taking part in the strike. The 'call to arms' from BASSA for the Kempton/Sandown park meetings was to show solidarity and wear yellow. It was only afterwards that the idea of yelloow 'supporting' the loss of life at Manchester was used. That never was, nor has ever been the original purpose of the 'yellow' which enables those who took part to recognise each other in a way that the company cannot influence thus enforcing the 'them and us'. To take it as anything else is naivety.