BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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I'm sure that you do ottergirl.
The solution to this dispute may well lie in the hands of the silent majority. Sometimes in life you have to stand up and be counted. Too many are afraid to stand up to the militants - yet too afraid to leave BASSA.
The solution to this dispute may well lie in the hands of the silent majority. Sometimes in life you have to stand up and be counted. Too many are afraid to stand up to the militants - yet too afraid to leave BASSA.
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I know crew literally too frightened to leave their rooms down route in case they get into a row with flight deck or VCC.
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As you say Hotwings, there is a stronger culture of fear on WW and many crew like draglift's friend who are scared to confront the problem crew. I live in the charmed world of Eurofleet where Flight and Cabin crew live in relative harmony, where we talk about our differences and hardly anyone sulks.
Most of us who disagreed have already left BASSA, (I left in 1997 so can hardly expect to have any say) but I do detect a different mood spreading amongst the crew. They are thoroughly hacked off with the lack of representation and I think the mood is turning. Keep talking to them, keep challenging their misguided views, make it alright to walk away, make them feel that there is a safety in numbers outside Bassa, they may yet surprise you!
Most of us who disagreed have already left BASSA, (I left in 1997 so can hardly expect to have any say) but I do detect a different mood spreading amongst the crew. They are thoroughly hacked off with the lack of representation and I think the mood is turning. Keep talking to them, keep challenging their misguided views, make it alright to walk away, make them feel that there is a safety in numbers outside Bassa, they may yet surprise you!
Holly's holier than thou from the moral high ground twaddle makes me puke!
I have witnessed for years the vile attacks on everyone in the BASSA rag! Managers, colleagues, pilots, directors, union officials, CC89 reps everyone who does not fall at the feet on mighty BASSA has been vilified and bullied.
He was not sacked on a first offence he had a string of previous including written attacks on cabin crew colleagues who dared to question him.
He sent an email to all BASSA CSD's giving the name of a crew member who had questioned him on a subject with the message 'you know what to do if you fly with him'. However, as always, he's so thick he sent it to the victim as well!!
Needless to say BA just gave him a written warning.
Cabin crew please wake up to this and put an end to it now.
I have witnessed for years the vile attacks on everyone in the BASSA rag! Managers, colleagues, pilots, directors, union officials, CC89 reps everyone who does not fall at the feet on mighty BASSA has been vilified and bullied.
He was not sacked on a first offence he had a string of previous including written attacks on cabin crew colleagues who dared to question him.
He sent an email to all BASSA CSD's giving the name of a crew member who had questioned him on a subject with the message 'you know what to do if you fly with him'. However, as always, he's so thick he sent it to the victim as well!!
Needless to say BA just gave him a written warning.
Cabin crew please wake up to this and put an end to it now.
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Tony Woodley
So Tony Woodley has confirmed that the members have no say.
Unite needs to get it's act together and bring under control the unions that were brought together under the merger to create Unite.
Wasn't that the idea of of a super union, to have a central command. At the moment Unite have a number of loose cannon unions in it's fold. BASSA obviously being one of them.
The solution? That will need a bit of thought.
But after Bassa's rejection, Mr Woodley said : "I will not under any circumstances recommend to our cabin crew members any offer that was not also recommended by our elected representatives."
He added "any sense that this offer is being presented to cabin crew over the heads of unwilling representatives would be deeply damaging to the union."
He added "any sense that this offer is being presented to cabin crew over the heads of unwilling representatives would be deeply damaging to the union."
Unite needs to get it's act together and bring under control the unions that were brought together under the merger to create Unite.
Wasn't that the idea of of a super union, to have a central command. At the moment Unite have a number of loose cannon unions in it's fold. BASSA obviously being one of them.
The solution? That will need a bit of thought.
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Quote:
In any such case British Airways will have the right to approve or reject the arbitrator proposed.
The way I read this is that it applies to the person making the arbitration decision not the actual decision (arbitration) itself. ie if BA felt the arbitrator was too biased they could reject their appointment
In any such case British Airways will have the right to approve or reject the arbitrator proposed.
The way I read this is that it applies to the person making the arbitration decision not the actual decision (arbitration) itself. ie if BA felt the arbitrator was too biased they could reject their appointment
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I have just flown with a CSD who is frightened to go out with cabin crew because she was a non-striker. Consequently she stays in her room, is lonely and has been reduced to tears on several occasions by deliberate and spiteful acts on the aircraft designed to undermine her authority. She has asked to downgrade her status to purser where she will be less of a target but this has been refused. She is very stressed, now dreads going in to work and is contemplating leaving the company after 21 years. At work she appears cheerful hard working and a pleasure to work with. What a waste
I have had to gently remind pursers on occasion that their job is to manage their crew, and if they come to me as Captain with issues, I would rather they did their job before I step into the fray.
Without question, strong leadership from the SCCM dictates the tone of a flight. I have had numerous fabulous crew, and have been very surprised to learn there are fairly hard line BASSA supporters amongst them, or indeed the SCCM themselves. I have absolutely no problem with that - they are doing their job as professionals, and (very pertinent at the moment) are genuinely exercising good CRM. The problem flights from a FC perspective are those where the SCCM is weak in asserting their authority over their crew members. That doesn't mean being dictatorial, but exhibiting a style of professional authority which doesn't give crew members the latitude to exhibit behaviour that could undermine them.
As I say, I have great sympathy with the CSD mentioned above. My personal style of leadership is the 'less is more' principle, that is to say, let people get on with their jobs, and I like to foster a harmonious atmosphere, with minimum intervention, but I have had to change my style on occasions as a result of this dispute, and assert my authority, which isn't my preferred style. However it is what I have to do sometimes in order to do my job as required.
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BlueUpGood
I agree in principle to everything you said.
The CSD I referred to is on long haul, a strong character and suffers no nonsense. She is extremely company minded and has reported several cabin crew for attitude or infringements. It is because she has made a stand that she is being targeted. It would have been a lot easier for her to ignore certain events rather than rise to the bait. Unfortunately the malicious acts are usually anonymous and are wearing her down too much.
I agree in principle to everything you said.
The CSD I referred to is on long haul, a strong character and suffers no nonsense. She is extremely company minded and has reported several cabin crew for attitude or infringements. It is because she has made a stand that she is being targeted. It would have been a lot easier for her to ignore certain events rather than rise to the bait. Unfortunately the malicious acts are usually anonymous and are wearing her down too much.
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I have just flown with a CSD who is frightened to go out with cabin crew because she was a non-striker. Consequently she stays in her room, is lonely and has been reduced to tears on several occasions by deliberate and spiteful acts on the aircraft designed to undermine her authority. She has asked to downgrade her status to purser where she will be less of a target but this has been refused. She is very stressed, now dreads going in to work and is contemplating leaving the company after 21 years. At work she appears cheerful hard working and a pleasure to work with. What a waste.
On the other hand, why should they downgrade her status to purser? Many would oppose it because of the huge amount of surplus of pursers at the moment.
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Ah MissM, another blinding dose of BASSA inspired reality.
Of course, it's her/BA's fault that she's getting asinine or vitriolic comments from crew who went on strike, it's her/BA's fault that a proportion of crew do not know how to conduct themselves in a professional context given their belief that they represent the apotheosis of everything British Airways and, as such, are allowed to disregard any rule or convention they don't feel they should conform to, unless sanctioned by the increasingly histrionic Holley and his aggrieved ego. The fault, as much as it won't play with the man or woman on the BASSA omnibus, lies with individuals who don't know how to conduct themselves in an adult manner in an industrial dispute.
Like it or not, all the teddies that have been flung, all the foul words and all the insinuations of character have come from Unite, the sub-branches and their supporters. The worst you've heard from BA has been the word dysfunctional and I think that, at best, encourages debate and is not as insulting as 90% of the comms issued by the other side.
I do, however, agree with you that she should not be allowed demotion to Psr. The signal it would send to those determined to disrupt everything on the back of their grievances would be intolerable.
BlueUpGood
In essence I agree with you but the practicalities don't necessarily bear out in day to day working, partly for the reasons outlined above.
We're dealing, if you will, at times, with an asymmetric style of conflict in that many crew follow the beat of the BASSA drum and believe it's their moral right to attempt to subvert and undermine their superiors. The threats to CSDs carrying out upgrades at the behest of the Capt. still continue apace (certainly on WW) and, I can readily see after a while, why some CSDs just throw their hands up in the air and wonder why they bother (although it's noteworthy that many continue nonetheless at a cost to themselves of a good deal of energy and stress).
There's a signal failure on the part of many crew to accept that, on the day, they have on-board superiors in rank, be that purser, CSD, FO, Capt. and BASSA actively foster subtle dissent with their inflammatory rhetoric. I can vouch for the fact that most on-side CSDs are standing up but it must be noted that it is an actively draining issue dealing with individuals or cliques who think that their choice of insubordinate behaviour is justified by some sort of higher moral authority outwith their contractual obligations. Occasionally, no matter how authoritative the CSD, escalation to the Capt. is often the only way to dampen the militant fervour and, dare I say it, put the fear of formal action into the agitator.
After all, it's "BASSA 'till i die" for the new mantra. For goodness sakes.
MrB
Of course, it's her/BA's fault that she's getting asinine or vitriolic comments from crew who went on strike, it's her/BA's fault that a proportion of crew do not know how to conduct themselves in a professional context given their belief that they represent the apotheosis of everything British Airways and, as such, are allowed to disregard any rule or convention they don't feel they should conform to, unless sanctioned by the increasingly histrionic Holley and his aggrieved ego. The fault, as much as it won't play with the man or woman on the BASSA omnibus, lies with individuals who don't know how to conduct themselves in an adult manner in an industrial dispute.
Like it or not, all the teddies that have been flung, all the foul words and all the insinuations of character have come from Unite, the sub-branches and their supporters. The worst you've heard from BA has been the word dysfunctional and I think that, at best, encourages debate and is not as insulting as 90% of the comms issued by the other side.
I do, however, agree with you that she should not be allowed demotion to Psr. The signal it would send to those determined to disrupt everything on the back of their grievances would be intolerable.
BlueUpGood
In essence I agree with you but the practicalities don't necessarily bear out in day to day working, partly for the reasons outlined above.
We're dealing, if you will, at times, with an asymmetric style of conflict in that many crew follow the beat of the BASSA drum and believe it's their moral right to attempt to subvert and undermine their superiors. The threats to CSDs carrying out upgrades at the behest of the Capt. still continue apace (certainly on WW) and, I can readily see after a while, why some CSDs just throw their hands up in the air and wonder why they bother (although it's noteworthy that many continue nonetheless at a cost to themselves of a good deal of energy and stress).
There's a signal failure on the part of many crew to accept that, on the day, they have on-board superiors in rank, be that purser, CSD, FO, Capt. and BASSA actively foster subtle dissent with their inflammatory rhetoric. I can vouch for the fact that most on-side CSDs are standing up but it must be noted that it is an actively draining issue dealing with individuals or cliques who think that their choice of insubordinate behaviour is justified by some sort of higher moral authority outwith their contractual obligations. Occasionally, no matter how authoritative the CSD, escalation to the Capt. is often the only way to dampen the militant fervour and, dare I say it, put the fear of formal action into the agitator.
After all, it's "BASSA 'till i die" for the new mantra. For goodness sakes.
MrB
Last edited by MrBunker; 13th Nov 2010 at 10:57.
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As usual, MissM, you miss the point that it is the strikers who cause much, if not most, of the aggravation in the CRC and down route. It's no wonder that those involved with MF find it a breath of fresh air, not having to deal with surly yellow pens.
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Dave747436
Maybe because it's true?
MrBunker
I think you will find that most crew can conduct themselves in a professional manner. A CSD has obligations and responsibilites to his or her role. If this female CSD finds it difficult to work with a certain colleague there are ways to deal with it.
Caribbean Boy
It must be a breath of fresh air for those involved in MF seeing as the majority of MF cabin crew seem to be of the opinion that they would work to almost nothing just as long they get to wear a BA uniform.
Maybe because it's true?
MrBunker
I think you will find that most crew can conduct themselves in a professional manner. A CSD has obligations and responsibilites to his or her role. If this female CSD finds it difficult to work with a certain colleague there are ways to deal with it.
Caribbean Boy
It must be a breath of fresh air for those involved in MF seeing as the majority of MF cabin crew seem to be of the opinion that they would work to almost nothing just as long they get to wear a BA uniform.
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MissM,
Most crew can. A significant number choose not to, especially when they think they can get away with it.
Moreover, any application of performance management seems to be met with cries of bullying and harassment. We're not dealing with some people prepared to adopt a professional level due to the moralistic indignation assumed by some strikers as I outlined above.
Most crew can. A significant number choose not to, especially when they think they can get away with it.
Moreover, any application of performance management seems to be met with cries of bullying and harassment. We're not dealing with some people prepared to adopt a professional level due to the moralistic indignation assumed by some strikers as I outlined above.
It must be a breath of fresh air for those involved in MF seeing as the majority of MF cabin crew seem to be of the opinion that they would work to almost nothing just as long they get to wear a BA uniform.
Finally, have BASSA ever considered that everybody else but themselves likes working with the MF crews, because those MF crews display qualities that should be the norm in the industry. An awful of of people are fed up with the attitude of the legacy BASSA die-hards - surly, obstructive, uncooperative,envious, miserable, insubordinate - such that the "breath of fresh air" that is MF will gain the upper hand. Undoubtedly.
BASSA are being bypassed, a fact that the rest of BA welcomes. And all because of BASSA's own actions - how ironic! The fault lies entirely with BASSA.
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Abbey Road
People applying for MF are probably doing it for many different reasons but many are undoubtedly doing it because they get to wear the BA uniform and really don't care about the package itself. This has been discussed before but it should be interesting to hear BA's explanation to market rate plus 10%.
You say that an awful lot of people in BA are fed up with the BASSA militant die-hards. Did you ever stop to think that we are possibly fed up with other people interfering our dispute?
People applying for MF are probably doing it for many different reasons but many are undoubtedly doing it because they get to wear the BA uniform and really don't care about the package itself. This has been discussed before but it should be interesting to hear BA's explanation to market rate plus 10%.
You say that an awful lot of people in BA are fed up with the BASSA militant die-hards. Did you ever stop to think that we are possibly fed up with other people interfering our dispute?
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Abbey Road
People applying for MF are probably doing it for many different reasons but many are undoubtedly doing it because they get to wear the BA uniform and really don't care about the package itself. This has been discussed before but it should be interesting to hear BA's explanation to market rate plus 10%.
You say that an awful lot of people in BA are fed up with the BASSA militant die-hards. Did you ever stop to think that we are possibly fed up with other people interfering our dispute?
People applying for MF are probably doing it for many different reasons but many are undoubtedly doing it because they get to wear the BA uniform and really don't care about the package itself. This has been discussed before but it should be interesting to hear BA's explanation to market rate plus 10%.
You say that an awful lot of people in BA are fed up with the BASSA militant die-hards. Did you ever stop to think that we are possibly fed up with other people interfering our dispute?
Of course, I expect that your answer to that is the, now well-worn, answer that had no-one got involved then this would have been over months, if not years, ago. The fact is it may well have been but neither of us know for a fact how that may have looked. Your belief is that it may have resulted in a resounding "win" for BASSA. Mine is not. Neither of us can ever prove that so it remains no more than a supposition on both our parts.
It speaks volumes about the self-perception you appear to have that you think everyone else should've just sat back on the sidelines and watched whilst you attempted to implode the company from within. Just as you consider your dispute to be legitimate, so do those who have an opinion feel their intervention and opinion is just as legitimate.
You'd be breathtakingly naive or arrogant to assume you could, or should be able to, conduct it in a vacuum.
For the avoidance of any doubt I bear you no ill-will but I do think you tend to the philosophy of trying to write the ground rules of such issues to suit your argument and then argue from that starting point rather than debating the issues themselves as they present, not as you seem to wish to, i.e, apportion blame for your unhappiness in the manner of their presentation, or their very existence in the first place. It smacks of a lack of personal and collective responsibility to me.
MrB
Last edited by MrBunker; 13th Nov 2010 at 19:14. Reason: Punctuation Errata
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You say that an awful lot of people in BA are fed up with the BASSA militant die-hards. Did you ever stop to think that we are possibly fed up with other people interfering our dispute?