BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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upperdeckpsr
If, as Miss M states, that this offer is totally unacceptable to the BASSAnistas then there is the option for them to leave the airline and find another job with their requirements
Fatigue though will play a part, people weary of a constant struggle and some just want it to end. If BASSA do not actively campaign for refusal of the offer someone else will have to, else it is likely that support for continued action will melt away.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 21st Oct 2010 at 16:55.
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My prediction is this.....
...the new offer will be accepted.
There will be (is) much posturing on the BASSA Forum and onboard about how the deal is not good enough and how the sacked and suspended cannot be left behind. But quietly, come the vote, the majority will want this over with. Individuals will rather see their staff travel returned now, than roll the dice as to whether the law will return it to them. They will know in their heart-of-hearts that the deal is not going to get any better - not through striking and not through the courts. So outwardly they'll express utter disgust at the offer but secretly they'll vote to accept it, relieved to see the whole thing over with.
Post-acceptance, BASSA reps will blame the "majority" that accepted the new deal and the very crew that voted to accept on the QT will join them in their vilification. Blame will squarely be laid at the feet of the un-named collective that accepted. And so the Reps and most crew (except the sacked and suspended) breathe a sigh of relief and live to fight another day.
...the new offer will be accepted.
There will be (is) much posturing on the BASSA Forum and onboard about how the deal is not good enough and how the sacked and suspended cannot be left behind. But quietly, come the vote, the majority will want this over with. Individuals will rather see their staff travel returned now, than roll the dice as to whether the law will return it to them. They will know in their heart-of-hearts that the deal is not going to get any better - not through striking and not through the courts. So outwardly they'll express utter disgust at the offer but secretly they'll vote to accept it, relieved to see the whole thing over with.
Post-acceptance, BASSA reps will blame the "majority" that accepted the new deal and the very crew that voted to accept on the QT will join them in their vilification. Blame will squarely be laid at the feet of the un-named collective that accepted. And so the Reps and most crew (except the sacked and suspended) breathe a sigh of relief and live to fight another day.
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UDP and Hampshire hostie - please try to be a bit more mature in your responses. We're all adults here and claiming youre being bullied when someone disagrees with you fools no one and demeans yourselves. Thank you.
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Support for latest offer..
UDP, MissM etc..
You might be interested in looking back at the last consultative ballot for the "final offer", where only 3,419 of your so-called 5/7000 strike force voted against the offer, with 1,686 voting for it. So if the current BASSA membership is 9,500 (ish) that leave 4,400ish undecided in July. It wouldn't take too much of a swing to get a vote of acceptance, give that some are clearly feeling weary of the whole dispute, and simply want it over.
I would also suggest that those strikers that didn't vote, did so because they were either fed-up that the IA had achieved nothing or as I'm sure you'll suggest
that they simply wished to take further IA, but by now I think they will be thinking this would be a foolish move.
You might be interested in looking back at the last consultative ballot for the "final offer", where only 3,419 of your so-called 5/7000 strike force voted against the offer, with 1,686 voting for it. So if the current BASSA membership is 9,500 (ish) that leave 4,400ish undecided in July. It wouldn't take too much of a swing to get a vote of acceptance, give that some are clearly feeling weary of the whole dispute, and simply want it over.
I would also suggest that those strikers that didn't vote, did so because they were either fed-up that the IA had achieved nothing or as I'm sure you'll suggest
that they simply wished to take further IA, but by now I think they will be thinking this would be a foolish move.
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It appears you have a very low sensitivity threshold. Being called an upper deck p*sser is rude, but it's hardly bullying.
It's childish and it doesn't add to your argument, so either stop doing it or go and play elsewhere, leave this forum for people who want to discuss the issue.
My view is that battle fatigue will win. I've heard many more comment along the lines of 'we just need to end this', 'it's gone on too long', 'I'm so fed up with all of this' than I have of the MissM variety.
Not particularly wide ranging sample I know, but there you are. I think it'll be accepted and BASSA will complain that their members let them down. The strikers will hate everyone even more than they already do and the issues it has generated will fade into the background but never really be resolved.
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No it won't go down well, but then it would have been said directly to individuals who might take offence, which makes it an entirely different case to an off-the-cuff dismissive remark directed at an unknown individual on an anonymous internet forum. Unfortunately you can't claim bullying by proxy. This is why despite the hectoring by a vocal minority we didn't see certain individuals pursued by the police for the 'hate-crime' of describing stewards unflatteringly on a social networking site. These aren't my rules, these are societys rules. We were discussing the issues quite satisfactorily until attempts were made to stifle the debate by playing the bullying card.
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Numbers game
Returning to the case in hand. At the last count (i.e. before BASSA pulled the plug on the numbers) there were some 9270 odd members in the BASSA branch. (I.m sure someone on here can supply the correct figure). If you take the touted figure of 6,000 strikers and look at the number who voted to ditch the previous offer (which is very similar in some respects to this lates one) you have around 3,400. So, roughly half of the strikers reckon the last deal was pants.Oh and about 1,700 thought it was OK. The silent majority was around half the then membership.
Human nature is funny. I reckon that there is still a hard core that will vote against any deal sheerly out of principle - we've seen enough evidence on here of the mentality. But there will be a block who will be weary of the battle and now want settlement. If 15% of those who voted against the deal last time switch sides and only 1000 extra votes of the 5000 abstentions are cast in favour of acceptance. then the deal will go through. There will still be a cripplingly low turnout (60%) but hey, that's democracy in action.
For those who didn't read the small print in the deal. BA require that Unite drop all court action including the current appeal court case. Now I reckon that given that this is now part of the settlement deal, their lord and ladyships will defer judgement on the case until after the consultative ballot has completed and only announce it if the result is to ditch the offer. Does this mean BA is running scared ? I don't think so. I think it is more a case of horse-trading. TW wanted to get a deal on staff travel. This was the price.
Human nature is funny. I reckon that there is still a hard core that will vote against any deal sheerly out of principle - we've seen enough evidence on here of the mentality. But there will be a block who will be weary of the battle and now want settlement. If 15% of those who voted against the deal last time switch sides and only 1000 extra votes of the 5000 abstentions are cast in favour of acceptance. then the deal will go through. There will still be a cripplingly low turnout (60%) but hey, that's democracy in action.
For those who didn't read the small print in the deal. BA require that Unite drop all court action including the current appeal court case. Now I reckon that given that this is now part of the settlement deal, their lord and ladyships will defer judgement on the case until after the consultative ballot has completed and only announce it if the result is to ditch the offer. Does this mean BA is running scared ? I don't think so. I think it is more a case of horse-trading. TW wanted to get a deal on staff travel. This was the price.
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Interesting comment on the SLF thread on this topic. The suggestion is that Duncan Holley, by stating that if the offer is rejected, a ballot for strike action will immediately follow, may have fallen foul of the conditions that BA put on the deal viz that BASSA and Unite would support the deal and that both would be more restrained in their comms. Moreover, by making this statement the BASSA branch secretary, as an officer of the branch, has failed to also make clear to the membership the likely implications of any strike ballot. So he's cocked up again. Technically BA could now withdraw the offer as BASSA are not acting in good faith. In reality I doubt that they will, but I'll also bet that there will be a kicking going on round the back of the bike sheds.
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Udp
You make the assumption that Unite would sanction a ballot for strike action
Does it occur to you that they may not be inclined to go down this road? BASSA cannot order a strike ballot on their own. High time the branch woke up to reality . If the majority opt for acceptance what will you do?
You make the assumption that Unite would sanction a ballot for strike action
Does it occur to you that they may not be inclined to go down this road? BASSA cannot order a strike ballot on their own. High time the branch woke up to reality . If the majority opt for acceptance what will you do?
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And for the avoidance of doubt, and to counter the claims on CF that VCC don't want to come in at Christmas, I'm more than happy to be called out on Christmas morn, if it helps bring this farrago to a conclusion.
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In 2007 that dispute was about giving BA a bloody nose because of the way they were treating us. BA made enough concessions to make the committee vote 6-3 in favour of calling of the dispute. Tony Woodley supported the 6 and so got blamed. I led the blame charge because I knew we hadn't done enough to make BA change the way thet treated us and 3 years later chickens are coming home to roost.
However now is not the time to recriminate. UNITE are the only game in town. The relationship the committee have with TW and Lenny McLuskey is an open one and once TW has gone as far as he can he will report back to the senior reps and a decision then will be taken which will give you the ultimate say.
I know 2007 was a hard pill to swallow but lessons have been learnt by BASSA and UNITE. We can't change history but what we can do is to make sure that the errors of the past are not repeated in the future. Rest assured your BASSA committee have their eyes fully open but also do remember there are a lot of people involved in this and it goes right to the top.
Rgds Duncan
However now is not the time to recriminate. UNITE are the only game in town. The relationship the committee have with TW and Lenny McLuskey is an open one and once TW has gone as far as he can he will report back to the senior reps and a decision then will be taken which will give you the ultimate say.
I know 2007 was a hard pill to swallow but lessons have been learnt by BASSA and UNITE. We can't change history but what we can do is to make sure that the errors of the past are not repeated in the future. Rest assured your BASSA committee have their eyes fully open but also do remember there are a lot of people involved in this and it goes right to the top.
Rgds Duncan
A majority of BASSA reps (not all) have agreed with UNITE that this is the best offer available under the current economic climate.
The more militant BASSA reps have been forced to put this to the membership, I'm sure they are dreading an acceptance vote.
If it is accepted though, expect much blame to be cast just like the quote above.
Poor BASSA, they don't seem very good at this lark.
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OzzieO
Forgive me but could you clarify your posting - it seems to have a wonderful tortology in it. You asked
Now did you mean people who anti BASSA and anti BA and bash cabin crew, or anti BASSA people who bash those who are anti-BA cabin crew or what ??? A really most perplexing statement 
I have a sneaky feeling that you might have been having a sly old dig at anyone who voiced an opinion that did not conform with the BASSA party line. Whatever. As one who has consistently been of the view that the BASSA leadership were a few sandwiches short of a picnic I can cheerfully state that this has been an interesting debate and one that I really do not wish to have to partake of again unless there is a similar foolishness. As this dispute is now drawing to a close maybe it is time for those who represent the views of the silent majority to be elected onto the BASSA executive. Hopefully they will be able to serve the membership better than the outgoing bunch.
Finally, you seem to have missed the point completely. It is because the action by cabin crew impacted on every other BA employee that this dispute became our business as well. You really need to appreciate that no-one in BA works in a a bubble. We all affect each other's lives. That's what working for a company is all about. Employees in successful companies know that they operate as one big team. Had we all considered you had a valid claim, we would have backed you. Trouble is we didn't, so you didn't get our support. You were poorly served by your branch officials and I suspect that they never once stopped to explain the consequences of the action they proposed.
what are the anti-BASSA, anti-BA cabin crew bashers that post on pprune going to do???
I have a sneaky feeling that you might have been having a sly old dig at anyone who voiced an opinion that did not conform with the BASSA party line. Whatever. As one who has consistently been of the view that the BASSA leadership were a few sandwiches short of a picnic I can cheerfully state that this has been an interesting debate and one that I really do not wish to have to partake of again unless there is a similar foolishness. As this dispute is now drawing to a close maybe it is time for those who represent the views of the silent majority to be elected onto the BASSA executive. Hopefully they will be able to serve the membership better than the outgoing bunch.
Finally, you seem to have missed the point completely. It is because the action by cabin crew impacted on every other BA employee that this dispute became our business as well. You really need to appreciate that no-one in BA works in a a bubble. We all affect each other's lives. That's what working for a company is all about. Employees in successful companies know that they operate as one big team. Had we all considered you had a valid claim, we would have backed you. Trouble is we didn't, so you didn't get our support. You were poorly served by your branch officials and I suspect that they never once stopped to explain the consequences of the action they proposed.
Last edited by Colonel White; 22nd Oct 2010 at 22:27. Reason: added an afterthought
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Had we all considered you had a valid claim, we would have backed you. Trouble is we didn't, so you didn't get our support. You were poorly served by your branch officials and I suspect that they never once stopped to explain the consequences of the action they proposed.
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Lets wait for the result...
I have just returned from a long haul trip and I am not so certain that this is the end of the story. The csd as well as most of the pursers and more senior main crew were furious about the new offer, they called and insult and they made it clear that hell would have to freeze over before they were going to accept it.
Furthermore they couldn't wait to talk to some union reps in person to get an explanation how this could have been put before them for a vote.
No doubt they are beginning to feel very shafted indeed and not just by BA.
A few junior crew had no opinion on it at all and they are probably not going to vote on it. (History repeating itself???)
My take on it:
The most militant strikers probably 25-35% are going to vote it down.
Most of the moderate union members are not going to vote again for one reason or another.
Here we go! Although less than 40% voted, the great majority of those will have turned it down. We will have another strike on our hands and the militant few can drag us all to the bottom of the ocean.
After all Duncan promised them an immediate ballot if the offer is rejected.
Due to the last 18 month of endless BASSA propaganda, half truth, scaremongering and indoctrination they have created themselves an army ready for the kill, unstoppable and deaf to reason.
Of course I do sincerely hope that I am wrong…
Furthermore they couldn't wait to talk to some union reps in person to get an explanation how this could have been put before them for a vote.
No doubt they are beginning to feel very shafted indeed and not just by BA.
A few junior crew had no opinion on it at all and they are probably not going to vote on it. (History repeating itself???)
My take on it:
The most militant strikers probably 25-35% are going to vote it down.
Most of the moderate union members are not going to vote again for one reason or another.
Here we go! Although less than 40% voted, the great majority of those will have turned it down. We will have another strike on our hands and the militant few can drag us all to the bottom of the ocean.
After all Duncan promised them an immediate ballot if the offer is rejected.
Due to the last 18 month of endless BASSA propaganda, half truth, scaremongering and indoctrination they have created themselves an army ready for the kill, unstoppable and deaf to reason.
Of course I do sincerely hope that I am wrong…
Last edited by flyingsoldier1993; 23rd Oct 2010 at 11:43.
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We will have another strike on our hands and the militant few can drag us all to the bottom of the ocean.
Furthermore, I'm sure UNITE would distance themselves in light of the public sector cuts that they will be involved with. They will be dealing with lay offs/pay reductions, neither of which are issues for BASSA!
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Flyingsoldier, I agree with you 100%.
Apathy and fear will rule the day again, as crew who are fed up won't be bothered to vote and other crew in fear of being discovered as "yes" voters will abstain.
The 3-4,000 BASSA hardcore will all vote "no", resulting in the offer being declined on a low turn out.
On the other hand, should the deal be accepted you'll never meet anyone that will admit to having voted yes - a bit like BALPA's work coverage agreement!
Apathy and fear will rule the day again, as crew who are fed up won't be bothered to vote and other crew in fear of being discovered as "yes" voters will abstain.
The 3-4,000 BASSA hardcore will all vote "no", resulting in the offer being declined on a low turn out.
On the other hand, should the deal be accepted you'll never meet anyone that will admit to having voted yes - a bit like BALPA's work coverage agreement!
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A break down of the offer
Is it abundantly clear when you read the offer, that it is an insult? Forget staff travel and the dismissals; I am talking about terms and conditions. Each new term will be listed, but is there a reference to the existing provision?
I was involved in a contract alignment project recently where two very different sets of terms were merged. We did not take the best of each and include them in the new document, (it would have been nice for the short time the business would have survived), but overall it was at least the same plus an incentive to sign. But through this process, information on the detail was constantly supplied. The best part was a "what it means to you" document, that outlined everything, with no bias.
The BASSA reps position is that there is good and bad in the proposal. Well explain in detail what the good and bad is. Quantify the position, don't sabre rattle. If it is just staff travel and the sack/suspended that will lead to a no vote, then that is a negotiating position still.
This British Airways to restore travel perk to striking cabin crew - Cheapflights.co.uk is gaining momentum and if it is true, then staff travel is back on the table.
As to the dismissals, I would love to review the cases, as no doubt some or possibly all would still be sacked afterwards. That needs to be said by the BASSA side. Rules are rules and in the new Just Culture, you have to be an adult and realise the consequence of your actions. However the sanction still has to be proportionate to the misconduct.
I was involved in a contract alignment project recently where two very different sets of terms were merged. We did not take the best of each and include them in the new document, (it would have been nice for the short time the business would have survived), but overall it was at least the same plus an incentive to sign. But through this process, information on the detail was constantly supplied. The best part was a "what it means to you" document, that outlined everything, with no bias.
The BASSA reps position is that there is good and bad in the proposal. Well explain in detail what the good and bad is. Quantify the position, don't sabre rattle. If it is just staff travel and the sack/suspended that will lead to a no vote, then that is a negotiating position still.
This British Airways to restore travel perk to striking cabin crew - Cheapflights.co.uk is gaining momentum and if it is true, then staff travel is back on the table.
As to the dismissals, I would love to review the cases, as no doubt some or possibly all would still be sacked afterwards. That needs to be said by the BASSA side. Rules are rules and in the new Just Culture, you have to be an adult and realise the consequence of your actions. However the sanction still has to be proportionate to the misconduct.
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After all Duncan promised them an immediate ballot if the offer is rejected.
I do, however, see the offer being rejected as it simply does not fit with the bassa mindset.
