BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Miss M
BA or any other large organisation would never give it's employees a concrete binding agreement over future earnings, it's totally naive to think they would. However, it was documented on more than one occasion that the MTP was to be 'contractual' possibly the closest thing to a guarantee that we could have had and you rejected it.
If the more favourable MTP had been agreed the route transfer would not have been an issues as we would have been paid for an average including the most expensive routes, but again you rejected it.
If current crew actually accept their p/t offers then promotions will also be available on the current fleets. Also, if VR is offered again (and I'm sure it will be) this will also provide opportunities for promotion considering the majority of takers will no doubt be senior crew.
You may wish to spread the message and encourage BASSA members to reject the latest offer, but at what cost. From where I'm standing you have now rejected a number of very good offers and the only losers have been the members. At what point are you going to realise that rejecting one offer after the next is doing the BASSA membership no favours?
BA or any other large organisation would never give it's employees a concrete binding agreement over future earnings, it's totally naive to think they would. However, it was documented on more than one occasion that the MTP was to be 'contractual' possibly the closest thing to a guarantee that we could have had and you rejected it.
If the more favourable MTP had been agreed the route transfer would not have been an issues as we would have been paid for an average including the most expensive routes, but again you rejected it.
If current crew actually accept their p/t offers then promotions will also be available on the current fleets. Also, if VR is offered again (and I'm sure it will be) this will also provide opportunities for promotion considering the majority of takers will no doubt be senior crew.
You may wish to spread the message and encourage BASSA members to reject the latest offer, but at what cost. From where I'm standing you have now rejected a number of very good offers and the only losers have been the members. At what point are you going to realise that rejecting one offer after the next is doing the BASSA membership no favours?
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Miss M and friends.
You say you want written contractual undertakings from BA. Might I ask if BASSA have a written, contractual, non-negotiable undertaking from Unite that in the event that the membership reject the consultative ballot, regardless of the size of the majority or the turnout, that Unite will then allow a strike ballot to be held immediately.
You see I bet they don't. Which leads me to my next question. Why are you determined to attempt to get some sort of 'cast iron' guarantee from BA when you don't seek anything like that from your union leaders. If it is a question of trust, might I remind you that Tony Woodley was accused of selling BASSA down the river in 2007, yet you still appear to trust that he will secure a strike ballot for you. He and your representatives have openly stated that the deal on the table is the best that Unite are able to get in the current circumstances. If they believe that a better offer is not going to happen, why are youy hell bent on rejecting it ? There comes a point in any negotiation when one side has to reckon that they aren't going to get any more out of the other and has to settle.
BASSA have been offered
It would be ridiculous of BA to create a whole host of purser and CSD positions if the current fleet size does not warrant them.You'd wind up with pursers reporting to pursers and CSD's reporting to CSDs. Crew have been very quick to denounce the layers of management within BA yet you seem to want to create exactly that within the cabin crew community.
BASSA seem t obe unable to put into words exactly what they are now looking for. I'll bet if I asked ten different cabin crew members who all went on strike what they wanted from BA I would get ten very different answers. If your executive cannot put together a cogent arguement then really you have to ask what is it all about. More importantly, if the executive cannot provide a convincing reason to continue this dispute, should you be supporting them. If the offer gets rejected what are cabin crew going to do. Strike ? If less than half the membership can be bothered to vote in a consultative ballot, what odds will you give that any more will be prepared to walk out again ? If only 3500 (the number who rejected that last offer) crew go on strike, what effect will that have on BA's operation. That would mean over two thirds of cabin crew would work normally. Back that up with Mixed fleet who incidentally start work on Monday, plus the volunteers. BA will run 100% of all services. Effect on operation ? Zero. Effect on forward bookings ? Reckon that will be minimal - I'd like to think zero, but there will always be a few who swallow the BASSA rhetoric. Effect on striking crew ? Loss of pay, loss of staff travel, plus anyone who severely steps out of line can reckon on getting a P45. I doubt that BA will wish to go in for wholesale sackings as this might give Unite a lever. I can see that there will be a mass exodus from the union though and Unite could then face the real prospect of derecognition. BA will step up performance management and any staff who are not p to scratch will find themselves being shown the door. It will be a long grind, but BASSA will either have to learn a new trick or whither. Your choice.
You say you want written contractual undertakings from BA. Might I ask if BASSA have a written, contractual, non-negotiable undertaking from Unite that in the event that the membership reject the consultative ballot, regardless of the size of the majority or the turnout, that Unite will then allow a strike ballot to be held immediately.
You see I bet they don't. Which leads me to my next question. Why are you determined to attempt to get some sort of 'cast iron' guarantee from BA when you don't seek anything like that from your union leaders. If it is a question of trust, might I remind you that Tony Woodley was accused of selling BASSA down the river in 2007, yet you still appear to trust that he will secure a strike ballot for you. He and your representatives have openly stated that the deal on the table is the best that Unite are able to get in the current circumstances. If they believe that a better offer is not going to happen, why are youy hell bent on rejecting it ? There comes a point in any negotiation when one side has to reckon that they aren't going to get any more out of the other and has to settle.
BASSA have been offered
- a pay rise
- a return of staff travel with seniority back in 2013
- a deal on allowances.
It would be ridiculous of BA to create a whole host of purser and CSD positions if the current fleet size does not warrant them.You'd wind up with pursers reporting to pursers and CSD's reporting to CSDs. Crew have been very quick to denounce the layers of management within BA yet you seem to want to create exactly that within the cabin crew community.
BASSA seem t obe unable to put into words exactly what they are now looking for. I'll bet if I asked ten different cabin crew members who all went on strike what they wanted from BA I would get ten very different answers. If your executive cannot put together a cogent arguement then really you have to ask what is it all about. More importantly, if the executive cannot provide a convincing reason to continue this dispute, should you be supporting them. If the offer gets rejected what are cabin crew going to do. Strike ? If less than half the membership can be bothered to vote in a consultative ballot, what odds will you give that any more will be prepared to walk out again ? If only 3500 (the number who rejected that last offer) crew go on strike, what effect will that have on BA's operation. That would mean over two thirds of cabin crew would work normally. Back that up with Mixed fleet who incidentally start work on Monday, plus the volunteers. BA will run 100% of all services. Effect on operation ? Zero. Effect on forward bookings ? Reckon that will be minimal - I'd like to think zero, but there will always be a few who swallow the BASSA rhetoric. Effect on striking crew ? Loss of pay, loss of staff travel, plus anyone who severely steps out of line can reckon on getting a P45. I doubt that BA will wish to go in for wholesale sackings as this might give Unite a lever. I can see that there will be a mass exodus from the union though and Unite could then face the real prospect of derecognition. BA will step up performance management and any staff who are not p to scratch will find themselves being shown the door. It will be a long grind, but BASSA will either have to learn a new trick or whither. Your choice.
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Very little will help this dispute end as those involved have set themselves up as not wanting resoloution. A return to the previous status quo is no longer acceptable to either the remaining workforce or the company.
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Litebulbs,
Go on, entertain us; how would you go ahead and end this dispute tomorrow?
Those last three posts are not going to help bring the dispute to an end, but if you enjoy making them, then you are entitled to say what you want.
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Probably the first thing that I would do is resign from whatever representative position I held. If as a rep, I was instructed by the union, TUC and ACAS that this was the best deal on offer and I disagreed, then my position would be untenable. I am and always will be an employee first.
The more I learn on what business can and can't do to you, the more I realise that you need to have a good relationship with your employer, because if not, you are buggered.
The more I learn on what business can and can't do to you, the more I realise that you need to have a good relationship with your employer, because if not, you are buggered.
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Litebulbs
Surely the dilemma that those who don't believe the offer to be the best possible in the present circumstances face, is that they do not have a clear picture of what would constitute a better offer. It's a bit like going shopping for a new coat. You cast aside lots of options, not because they are bad, but because they don't quite hit the mark. You don't know what the mark is but kid yourself that you'll 'know it when you see it'. So you spend day after day in a fruitless search. Eventually you may find that ideal coat, the trouble is that it is now the height of summer and you don't need it. I'm not convinced that the hard core BASSA members want staff travel back, or ACAS arbitration, or the pay rise. If they did, they would be talking about accepting the deal on offer. I think they have genuinely forgotten what this dispute was about. The trouble is that the rest of the airline isn't going to sit around waiting for them to work out what they really, really want. So they get sidelined and will have to run to catch up with the rest of the workforce. I have no idea what these people are seeking. Does anyone else have a clue ?
Surely the dilemma that those who don't believe the offer to be the best possible in the present circumstances face, is that they do not have a clear picture of what would constitute a better offer. It's a bit like going shopping for a new coat. You cast aside lots of options, not because they are bad, but because they don't quite hit the mark. You don't know what the mark is but kid yourself that you'll 'know it when you see it'. So you spend day after day in a fruitless search. Eventually you may find that ideal coat, the trouble is that it is now the height of summer and you don't need it. I'm not convinced that the hard core BASSA members want staff travel back, or ACAS arbitration, or the pay rise. If they did, they would be talking about accepting the deal on offer. I think they have genuinely forgotten what this dispute was about. The trouble is that the rest of the airline isn't going to sit around waiting for them to work out what they really, really want. So they get sidelined and will have to run to catch up with the rest of the workforce. I have no idea what these people are seeking. Does anyone else have a clue ?
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Have not posted for a while but here goes !
CW,
I think what they are seeking is control.
Control of their fellow colleagues, control of Willie Walsh, control of the Board, control of everyone else in BA so that we will all think they are the only reason the company exists, that without them we are doomed.
A view of years ago now and not one to reflect the current state of airlines around the globe.
Times, as we know, are changing and for us as a company to be here in the future means change for us all. I know all other deparments have accepted this.
The hard core BASSA representatives are losing control and they do not like the fact that the proverbial " worm " is turning and that with or without them this company will continue.
Hopefully without them.
ATB,
Middy
I think what they are seeking is control.
Control of their fellow colleagues, control of Willie Walsh, control of the Board, control of everyone else in BA so that we will all think they are the only reason the company exists, that without them we are doomed.
A view of years ago now and not one to reflect the current state of airlines around the globe.
Times, as we know, are changing and for us as a company to be here in the future means change for us all. I know all other deparments have accepted this.
The hard core BASSA representatives are losing control and they do not like the fact that the proverbial " worm " is turning and that with or without them this company will continue.
Hopefully without them.
ATB,
Middy
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The cast iron gaurantees and control that BASSA seek from BA are simply not possible and never have been, strike as long as an as many times as you are allowed, you will never achieve what you want, and I don't beleive that outside of the hardcore membership and representatives, anyone really wants it either.
All they want is some sort of job security. trouble is they have picked the worst time to fight this battle, and are not going to like the outcome if they continue blindly on a collision course with a 90 day notice.
All they want is some sort of job security. trouble is they have picked the worst time to fight this battle, and are not going to like the outcome if they continue blindly on a collision course with a 90 day notice.
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Middy,
Your name is similar to mine but we are different people. However, your post matches quite a few I made best part of 2 years ago. It's all about control and power for the Bassa hierarchy.
Nothing has changed in all this time - except Bassa supporters are poorer.
Your name is similar to mine but we are different people. However, your post matches quite a few I made best part of 2 years ago. It's all about control and power for the Bassa hierarchy.
Nothing has changed in all this time - except Bassa supporters are poorer.
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Sadly, midman, not only BASSA supporters are poorer but the whole cabin crew community.
Control in dangerous hands is a frightening weapon and one which should be exercised with caution.
The really dedicated crew have been led down the swanney and left out to dry.
A sorry state of affaires.
Control in dangerous hands is a frightening weapon and one which should be exercised with caution.
The really dedicated crew have been led down the swanney and left out to dry.
A sorry state of affaires.
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Are there any budding psychology students out there that can make head or tail of the attitudes of the CC that still want to go on strike?
I think in the future this dispute would make a good case study for such a course or in Human Resources courses.
That said, non of the pro strikers has updated us on to why they still want to strike. The answer of "The proposal is not acceptable" without an explanation as to why it is not acceptable baffles me. Rightly or wrongly, I conclude that they haven't a clue themselves and are rather rudderless. As I think someone has mentioned already, it is a bit like Corporal Jones saying "Don't panic, don't panic!"
I put a question to the pro strikers:
If you were running an airline and you had to cut costs or go under, where would you make those cuts and why?
I think in the future this dispute would make a good case study for such a course or in Human Resources courses.
That said, non of the pro strikers has updated us on to why they still want to strike. The answer of "The proposal is not acceptable" without an explanation as to why it is not acceptable baffles me. Rightly or wrongly, I conclude that they haven't a clue themselves and are rather rudderless. As I think someone has mentioned already, it is a bit like Corporal Jones saying "Don't panic, don't panic!"
I put a question to the pro strikers:
If you were running an airline and you had to cut costs or go under, where would you make those cuts and why?
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Originally Posted by MissM
One of the most interesting bits is that they will serve an 8 week notice on all existing facilities agreements if an agreement has not been reached by then. So, either accept the deal or BA will implement further impositions.
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Keel Beam,
I am not a psychology student and I am not a Striker but am one of the crew that did not strike because 1) I could see it would be a waist of time and cost my employer money and 2) I did not agree with how my union (Amicus) was dealing with BA and aligning itself with the militant Bassa.
However when flying with Strikers I get the impression that the Staff Travel issue is what upsets them now the most. I feel many wanted the claim, that it was unfair to remove it from them, to go to court and believe that if they accept this offer, which expressly forbids any court cases, that wont then happen.
Bassa has constantly made them believe that it was their right to strike and coupled with the fact that an employer is not supposed to discriminate against anyone taking industrial action, many do feel that they have been discriminated against and it is a feeling of injustice that is driving many of them.
I have no idea if it was legal or not to remove Staff Travel but personally I wish it had not been removed and could be returned but I also realise that that would make Willie Walsh look weak and also remove a powerful trump card from him in the event of any other workers threatening to strike.
My advice to fellow crew that striked would be to accept this current offer and hope that their staff travel will get returned sooner. Of course as I cannot put myself in their shoes it is easy for me to say that because I am not feeling the resentment and hurt, that many of them are feeling whether it be rightly or wrongly.
I am not a psychology student and I am not a Striker but am one of the crew that did not strike because 1) I could see it would be a waist of time and cost my employer money and 2) I did not agree with how my union (Amicus) was dealing with BA and aligning itself with the militant Bassa.
However when flying with Strikers I get the impression that the Staff Travel issue is what upsets them now the most. I feel many wanted the claim, that it was unfair to remove it from them, to go to court and believe that if they accept this offer, which expressly forbids any court cases, that wont then happen.
Bassa has constantly made them believe that it was their right to strike and coupled with the fact that an employer is not supposed to discriminate against anyone taking industrial action, many do feel that they have been discriminated against and it is a feeling of injustice that is driving many of them.
I have no idea if it was legal or not to remove Staff Travel but personally I wish it had not been removed and could be returned but I also realise that that would make Willie Walsh look weak and also remove a powerful trump card from him in the event of any other workers threatening to strike.
My advice to fellow crew that striked would be to accept this current offer and hope that their staff travel will get returned sooner. Of course as I cannot put myself in their shoes it is easy for me to say that because I am not feeling the resentment and hurt, that many of them are feeling whether it be rightly or wrongly.
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Betty Girl
I can understand the resentment that the strikers feel in having their staff travel taken away and that they feel they are discriminated against because of this.
The "Staff Travel" doesn't matter brigade still want to go on strike to get it back.
What do they really want ( bearing in mind things are not going back to pre imposition days)
I can understand the resentment that the strikers feel in having their staff travel taken away and that they feel they are discriminated against because of this.
The "Staff Travel" doesn't matter brigade still want to go on strike to get it back.
What do they really want ( bearing in mind things are not going back to pre imposition days)
This would include the offices at T5. The time off for reps. The meetings that reps would have a seat at. The whole administration of the facilities provided for reps to represent members.
It has nothing to do with the agreements or T&C's for crew.
There are certain meetings and facilities required by law Health and Safety being one, the provision of a notice board facility being another.
BA has, in the past, been very good with the facilities afforded to cabin crew unions. First class travel when not entitled on BA business being one of them. TU reps do not form part of the establishment for leave and got what ever they liked, including Christmas off every year if they wanted it. One BASSA rep took 6 weeks holiday in 2009 during the beginning of the talks leading to the dispute. Some reps abused the system of de-roster on a regular basis taking themselves off unpopular trips and rearranging meetings around lucrative ones!
BA surely wont be as generous in the future what ever facilities agreement is in place.
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Keel beam,
I cannot speak for Strikers but maybe it is not the Staff Travel but the unfairness in their eyes of it's removal that drives them on. Some of them would like their day in court because they want to prove to everyone that Willie Walsh should not have punished them by removing it. Also some, not all, of suspensions and dismissals are seen as over the top also.
That is only my opinion as to how I see it having talked to some of them. I am sure there are many different reasons but that's the general feeling I get.
I cannot speak for Strikers but maybe it is not the Staff Travel but the unfairness in their eyes of it's removal that drives them on. Some of them would like their day in court because they want to prove to everyone that Willie Walsh should not have punished them by removing it. Also some, not all, of suspensions and dismissals are seen as over the top also.
That is only my opinion as to how I see it having talked to some of them. I am sure there are many different reasons but that's the general feeling I get.
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they think its all over!
As you brought up his name I predict in years to come when case studies of this dispute are debated by MBA students they will be arguing that Willie Walsh was one of the most successful CEO's in aviation history!
From the economics viewpoint can anyone disagree?
From the economics viewpoint can anyone disagree?
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Let's try to define 'dedicated' crew. Are they dedicated to their employer/their customers or themselves and their Union.
Whether or not you have a democratic & legal right to withdraw your labour, you also have a duty to your employer. The question is, who is your employer and who pays your wages. Is it Unite/Bassa or is it BA? Time and again I hear/have heard the expression 'well has the Union agreed to this' and 'the Union said we shouldn't do this' etc. Well I didn't fill in an application form to work for 'the Union' and they do not pay my salary at the end of every month. I work in customer service for BA because I believe in the Company, I take pride in serving the customers and I am dedicated in getting them from A to B which, as an airline is our job and 'customer service' is my role.
I have read many posts over a long period of time on Pprune, I have worked for 2 international competitors to BA, and I have worked in the 'outside' world too! Change is necessary. Who is leading you into this fight or are you being led? Make an INFORMED decision.
Whether or not you have a democratic & legal right to withdraw your labour, you also have a duty to your employer. The question is, who is your employer and who pays your wages. Is it Unite/Bassa or is it BA? Time and again I hear/have heard the expression 'well has the Union agreed to this' and 'the Union said we shouldn't do this' etc. Well I didn't fill in an application form to work for 'the Union' and they do not pay my salary at the end of every month. I work in customer service for BA because I believe in the Company, I take pride in serving the customers and I am dedicated in getting them from A to B which, as an airline is our job and 'customer service' is my role.
I have read many posts over a long period of time on Pprune, I have worked for 2 international competitors to BA, and I have worked in the 'outside' world too! Change is necessary. Who is leading you into this fight or are you being led? Make an INFORMED decision.
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EmmaC
As a CSD on WW who also worked for one of our competitors and also in the 'outside' world before coming to BA, all I have to say regarding your comments is I couldn't have said it better if I had said it myself!
