BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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The HKG was in extremis Betty, and if BA wanted MF to mix downroute there are plenty of JFK, ORD, LAX, SFO, MIA, JNB, DFW, IAH, EWR services to put them on. I know you are EF but different slip requirements don't faze the ground staff at outstations on long haul. Many of the aforementioned routes are only a single nightstop, or have flight crew slipping for two nights and cabin crew for one, or crews changing over downroute - even cabin crew switching between crews and flights! There's a reason MF are planned to be on their own downroute for the time being and a glance at the previous Daily Mail links illustrates why. It's a tiny minority granted, but why take the risk for the time being? BA are hoping for the best but planning for the worst.
PS One of the problems with the HKG mixed slip was the availability of hotel rooms in HKG as all the ex-pats had fled there from Tokyo. When the slip moved to ICN, with better hotel availability, the MF crew went to a different hotel.
PS One of the problems with the HKG mixed slip was the availability of hotel rooms in HKG as all the ex-pats had fled there from Tokyo. When the slip moved to ICN, with better hotel availability, the MF crew went to a different hotel.
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Betty Girl
You appear to have forgotten about Project Columbus which was uncovered before any cost cutting was even mentioned.
It was always BA's intention to introduce a cheaper workforce in this fashion, I'm amazed that you still blame anyone other than your employer for it's introduction.
As for wearing a hat, i'm sure M/F would welcome you with open arms.
You appear to have forgotten about Project Columbus which was uncovered before any cost cutting was even mentioned.
It was always BA's intention to introduce a cheaper workforce in this fashion, I'm amazed that you still blame anyone other than your employer for it's introduction.
As for wearing a hat, i'm sure M/F would welcome you with open arms.
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Well all those flights you mention are back to back trips, and WW are productive when doing these, apart from LAX and SFO which are again two nighters for WW and would be one night for M/F.
It could be for many reasons but it's always best not to guess and then post it as fact, don't you think!
The vast majority of crew are nice people and even the most staunch Bassa mentalists don't actually blame the Mixed Fleet crew for all this.
They do bizarrely blame people like you if you are a VCC and if you are a pilot they tar you all with the same brush unfortunately and they do blame people like me who worked; but most strikers and other crew don't actually blame M/F crew, they are just pawns in all of this and I see M/F and other crew chatting on the bus all the time nowadays.
Trouble is that some of you enjoy peddling all these nasty stories about a very few misguided crew and try to tar all crew in the same way, on here and other forums, that Bassa try and tar all pilots; and being supposedly intelligent people it's a great shame and you shouldn't lower yourselves to that level.
It could be for many reasons but it's always best not to guess and then post it as fact, don't you think!
The vast majority of crew are nice people and even the most staunch Bassa mentalists don't actually blame the Mixed Fleet crew for all this.
They do bizarrely blame people like you if you are a VCC and if you are a pilot they tar you all with the same brush unfortunately and they do blame people like me who worked; but most strikers and other crew don't actually blame M/F crew, they are just pawns in all of this and I see M/F and other crew chatting on the bus all the time nowadays.
Trouble is that some of you enjoy peddling all these nasty stories about a very few misguided crew and try to tar all crew in the same way, on here and other forums, that Bassa try and tar all pilots; and being supposedly intelligent people it's a great shame and you shouldn't lower yourselves to that level.
Junior trash
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I very much doubt that M/F are not getting routes that have more than a single service because the WW crew will turn on them. What a horrid assumption!
It will obviously change but its a pretty clear pattern so far. HKG was in extremis, and the MF crew stayed in separate hotels, as they did in ICN. That said the WW crews were very good with them.
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Only JFK, ORD and EWR in the aforementioned examples ae back to back trips. The rest attract a variety of box or destination payments. JNB is a prime example of where Mixed Fleet could be utilised as it could legally be operated as a single night slip, which is exactly what Virgin do with similar timings. I have heard similar justification as Hotel Mode as to why the two fleets are segregated. I would also speculate that offering two different service levels on a specific route might cause commercial issues. Mixed Fleet are consistently scoring double digit increases in customer satisfaction in the surveys on the long haul routes they take over.
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Hand Solo where have you got your information from as it is contrary to the brief all CSDs/CSMs have been given. We actually have problems with 3 routes in particular ie Prague Mauritious and Las Vegas which are operated by MF. Great efforts have to be put into those 3 routes. There has certainly been no double digit increases on any route. YVR, SIN and HKG being the best performers
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MRU has always been a demanding route and LAS was expected to be, so no surprises there. I have confidence in the source of my info on the customer surveys and their breakdown.
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Striking and balloting hasn't damaged BA at all
British Airways April 2011 RPK's up 33.2% and cargo Tonne Km's up 28.5% year on year with Apr 2010. All Iberia could manage was 9.6% and minus 5% respectively.
remind me again.. what is BASSA's strategy to bring BA to it's knees, cos whatever it is, it ain't working, indeed quite the opposite! Keep up the great work Duncan
remind me again.. what is BASSA's strategy to bring BA to it's knees, cos whatever it is, it ain't working, indeed quite the opposite! Keep up the great work Duncan
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Blueupgood I totally agree. An excellent set of results in the present climate and clearly shows IAG has a strong future. I am however very concerned at the latest turn on the Industrial front for cabin crew with Bassa holding a meeting next thursday and the decision whether to strike or allow members to vote on acceptance will be made by a show of hands. In this day and age they should be able to organise an online vote so all the members can have a vote rather than several hundred people who are able to get to the vote. 2011 and people deciding issues with terrible consequences by a show of hands.
Hand solo we as a Company need to concentrate now on consistancy. As you know the bonus targets for everyone across the airline were set this morning and the GPM score for willing to recommend along side ready to go and 2 of the main factors. We in IFCE are now concentrating on consistancy as nobody will trigger the bonus if we do not get consistancy. Trying to create inter fleet rivalry is not helpful.
Hand solo we as a Company need to concentrate now on consistancy. As you know the bonus targets for everyone across the airline were set this morning and the GPM score for willing to recommend along side ready to go and 2 of the main factors. We in IFCE are now concentrating on consistancy as nobody will trigger the bonus if we do not get consistancy. Trying to create inter fleet rivalry is not helpful.
Last edited by prism; 6th May 2011 at 11:27.
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It's not a matter of creating inter-fleet rivalry Prism, it's about getting legacy crew to raise their game. As you said, the bonus targets now require consistency, something which has been lacking in cabin service for a decade. We've all experienced; when legacy crew are good they are unbeatable, but you just don't know if you're going to get a good crew or a bad one any given flight. Mixed Fleet are scoring consistently higher. This should not come as a surprise as Qantas experienced the very same when they opened their London base. Nor should that fact detract from the efforts and merits of the good legacy crew. However the consistency issues on board the aircraft are down to the crew on the day, and that may be partly due to weak (or zero) performance management by IFCE. It will be the crew dragging down legacy fleets scores which will need to be addressed this coming year.
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Hand solo I have no idea what figures you are looking at but reviewing the figures we have in the office this is not true at all. we dont compare actual fleets. Infact almost everything on the B777 is low if operated on G-MIS aircraft. The main differences being the massiive improvement figures on routes operated by the B777-300. The B777-300 figures show great results and the routes they have been flying on are primarily DEL, DXB and ORD.You seem to have a problem with established fleets and can not accept the professionalism of crew who have completed a great length of service for BA. We in ifce identify that we now need consistancy. Yes we have some flights on MF going with 15/16 crew on a B777 but that wont be maintained once we resume flights to Haneda and hopefully Triploi. We have great professional crew on all fleets. We are now recruiting MF to all degrees of experiance . We have new entrants of 18 years who are doing great and we have brand new entrants of 58 who are equally doing a great job. Consistancy is what is needed now and those wanting competition need to rethink their points of view as they have a problem. The figures we have produced are not interfleet but by route/region and aircraft type. We are running a Company here that is at a turning point and we are going forward not playing juvinile games of trying to play people off against each other. All of us now depend on all our crew performing well and getting the flights away on time for our bonuses and overall customer service levels are up and will probably be shown to be in this quarters results out today.
Last edited by prism; 6th May 2011 at 13:41.
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I very much doubt that M/F are not getting routes that have more than a single service because the WW crew will turn on them. What a horrid assumption!
I'm afraid in this case its true. I heard it direct from the mouth of someone very very involved in the setting up of mixed fleet. Partly as a result of several nasty incidents when non strikers arrived in hotels during the strike last year.
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Do you know this is history repeating itself all over again just like Midfleet when it was being ended. I just ventured onto the ESS site where someone has actually posted about how they dont want MF to be integrated now as they dont want them getting to Worldwide before them. I really give up.
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Hand Solo,
You are very wrong about the Customer Survey Scores.
WW score consistently high scores and are available for YOU to read in the comms room, next to the coffee shop. 92% customer satisfaction is the current score on display.
Mixed Fleets scores have been taken down but were not as high.
E/F scores are on show next to the E/F managers, who sit next to Flight Crew admin desks and are there for you to see. They are 75% and going up.
The difference in the sets of scores is because they are collected differently. WW and I believe M/F long-haul flights are collected by the CSD or CSM giving out surveys; E/F and I believe M/F short-haul flights are done by email to passengers some time after their flight.
The in-flight method collects more results and the scores are higher. The passengers are more inclined to respond and they have plenty of time during the flight to complete the survey.
The email version has less chance of being influenced, but the forms are completed later and many passengers don't respond, leaving a result that is a mix of the dissatisfied and the very satisfied and those in between not bothering to even open the email. It also has the added problem that passengers may have travelled on up to four BA flights on their way to and from their holiday and so therefore the results are not so specific.
As you can see this makes it almost impossible to compare the three fleets and I have been told that BA are not doing so. M/F flights are also going out with 3 or 4 extra crew or VCCs on them and I have been specifically concerned that this could affect their scores and I went and asked today if BA would be comparing results.
We as fleets are trying to beat our own scores and improve on them and they are ALL up at the moment on ALL fleets.
So please don't peddle your nasty prejudices on here. If you take the time to visit some other airline websites where our Executive Club passenger post you will be able to see exactly what our customers are thinking, rather than guessing using your prejudiced feelings about WW and E/F crew, who are predominantly very professional, experienced and caring towards our passengers.
Judd,
BA legacy crew, as you call it, are paid in a similar way down-route to you but get less days off!!. The only difference is that for long duties, overtime or a box payment is made on top of our monthly salary. The longer the flight the higher the box number is ie box 1,2,3 or 4 and the bigger the payment. Most flights don't have box payments, they are only usually on flights that require crew bunk rest in order to operate them.
The new fleet that BA has started does not pay box payments for long flights or overtime for long duty days and instead of allowances based on the individual country, the crew get an hourly rate from check-in to clear.
That's the simple version for you.
You are very wrong about the Customer Survey Scores.
WW score consistently high scores and are available for YOU to read in the comms room, next to the coffee shop. 92% customer satisfaction is the current score on display.
Mixed Fleets scores have been taken down but were not as high.
E/F scores are on show next to the E/F managers, who sit next to Flight Crew admin desks and are there for you to see. They are 75% and going up.
The difference in the sets of scores is because they are collected differently. WW and I believe M/F long-haul flights are collected by the CSD or CSM giving out surveys; E/F and I believe M/F short-haul flights are done by email to passengers some time after their flight.
The in-flight method collects more results and the scores are higher. The passengers are more inclined to respond and they have plenty of time during the flight to complete the survey.
The email version has less chance of being influenced, but the forms are completed later and many passengers don't respond, leaving a result that is a mix of the dissatisfied and the very satisfied and those in between not bothering to even open the email. It also has the added problem that passengers may have travelled on up to four BA flights on their way to and from their holiday and so therefore the results are not so specific.
As you can see this makes it almost impossible to compare the three fleets and I have been told that BA are not doing so. M/F flights are also going out with 3 or 4 extra crew or VCCs on them and I have been specifically concerned that this could affect their scores and I went and asked today if BA would be comparing results.
We as fleets are trying to beat our own scores and improve on them and they are ALL up at the moment on ALL fleets.
So please don't peddle your nasty prejudices on here. If you take the time to visit some other airline websites where our Executive Club passenger post you will be able to see exactly what our customers are thinking, rather than guessing using your prejudiced feelings about WW and E/F crew, who are predominantly very professional, experienced and caring towards our passengers.
Judd,
BA legacy crew, as you call it, are paid in a similar way down-route to you but get less days off!!. The only difference is that for long duties, overtime or a box payment is made on top of our monthly salary. The longer the flight the higher the box number is ie box 1,2,3 or 4 and the bigger the payment. Most flights don't have box payments, they are only usually on flights that require crew bunk rest in order to operate them.
The new fleet that BA has started does not pay box payments for long flights or overtime for long duty days and instead of allowances based on the individual country, the crew get an hourly rate from check-in to clear.
That's the simple version for you.
Last edited by Betty girl; 7th May 2011 at 00:08.
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A13,
It is you that totally misses the point.
Columbus was thought up specifically because Bassa was so intransigent to any change at all. It was a threat to make them change their stance but instead of talking and coming up with a good solution, they called a strike and allowed BA to start the real planning for M/F and make it a reality.
I don't know how long you have been flying for BA but Bassa were even against the current long range agreement and it was put through by CC89.
Simon Talling Smith years and years ago was trying to get some change and it has always been blocked by Bassa and this is what we end up with; the worst outcome ever Mixed Fleet in full swing. It's bad for us and bad for them.
It is you that totally misses the point.
Columbus was thought up specifically because Bassa was so intransigent to any change at all. It was a threat to make them change their stance but instead of talking and coming up with a good solution, they called a strike and allowed BA to start the real planning for M/F and make it a reality.
I don't know how long you have been flying for BA but Bassa were even against the current long range agreement and it was put through by CC89.
Simon Talling Smith years and years ago was trying to get some change and it has always been blocked by Bassa and this is what we end up with; the worst outcome ever Mixed Fleet in full swing. It's bad for us and bad for them.
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Good news for Mixed Fleet crew.
I have been told today by a Manager, close to M/F, that an announcement about a change in their pay is due to be made.
Also the Future Talent role which is a programme to fast track main crew into becoming a CSM is changing.
I don't know if the name is changing but they are being given a similar role to WW Pursers and are getting a pay rise in recognition. BA have realised that these crew are doing a hard job for not much extra reward and it will also give the main crew another rank to aspire to.
Hope it is a decent payrise for you all.
I have been told today by a Manager, close to M/F, that an announcement about a change in their pay is due to be made.
Also the Future Talent role which is a programme to fast track main crew into becoming a CSM is changing.
I don't know if the name is changing but they are being given a similar role to WW Pursers and are getting a pay rise in recognition. BA have realised that these crew are doing a hard job for not much extra reward and it will also give the main crew another rank to aspire to.
Hope it is a decent payrise for you all.
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Heads will roll over this pay rise. If the pay increase is as rumoured, MF crew will be very close to post 97 crew bar their variables plus the £2.40 per hour. Don't forget the basic of pos 97 crew with 14 years in BA is only aorund £1650 a month.
So what was the point of BA attacking its cabin staff if it ends up paying the New Fleet something not far off post 97 cabin crew?
I have flown as a VCC only to see BA giveaway shed loads of money in the end. So perhaps it was all about busting BASSA after all.
So what was the point of BA attacking its cabin staff if it ends up paying the New Fleet something not far off post 97 cabin crew?
I have flown as a VCC only to see BA giveaway shed loads of money in the end. So perhaps it was all about busting BASSA after all.
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So perhaps it was all about busting BASSA after all.
Stripping them of power, allowing BA to run its airline as it sees fit...yes.
As predicted, we are now seeing pro-strike supporters crowing "we told you so..." as more routes are moved across to MF.
The simple fact remains....the original IA was focused on the removal of a crew member and the subsequent imposition. Instead of focusing on this and wheeling in the trojan horse (ie premature strike action...12 days over Christmas etc) BASSA should have focused on the real threat to our futures which is MF......compromised on working one down and got stuck into negotiating the MF or even an integrated option.
Now we are left with the remnants of a bitter dispute, the waters so muddied that even the most ardent supporter has lost focus on what the dispute is now (or what it what) really about. The negotiations that are happening now should have happened 18 months ago. And what has been achieved?...working one down will remain and MF is a reality, and exactly how BA wants it. Future strikes will be an irrelevance.
I see only one winner here and it ain't BASSA.
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Count N,
Even if M/F do get a bit more pay, it will still be a great saving to BA.
I didn't realise that the purpose of being a VCC was to cut cabin crew pay! You surprise me!
I thought it was to prevent a strike causing our customers hardship.
That's why I came to work and of course because I could see Bassa were making a monumental mistake!!
You are right though that BA are spending a lot of money keeping all these VCCs flying; and on top of their basics, which are much higher than our poor M/F crew, and most other main crew for that matter, they are given a daily rate that far outstrippes the hourley rate M/F get!! Strange that!
Count N,
Are you crew or a VCC or a pilot that is a VCC, just noticed you have posted a comment on the M/F thread saying how you have just been to Rio and rubbing it in to our M/F collegues how exopensive it is!
If you are a pilot, you should be ashamed of your posts! and if not, what are you and what is your motive for your posts.
Even if M/F do get a bit more pay, it will still be a great saving to BA.
I didn't realise that the purpose of being a VCC was to cut cabin crew pay! You surprise me!
I thought it was to prevent a strike causing our customers hardship.
That's why I came to work and of course because I could see Bassa were making a monumental mistake!!
You are right though that BA are spending a lot of money keeping all these VCCs flying; and on top of their basics, which are much higher than our poor M/F crew, and most other main crew for that matter, they are given a daily rate that far outstrippes the hourley rate M/F get!! Strange that!
Count N,
Are you crew or a VCC or a pilot that is a VCC, just noticed you have posted a comment on the M/F thread saying how you have just been to Rio and rubbing it in to our M/F collegues how exopensive it is!
If you are a pilot, you should be ashamed of your posts! and if not, what are you and what is your motive for your posts.
Last edited by Betty girl; 7th May 2011 at 11:09.