BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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hula
I understood what you were saying, I just wanted to highlight that some (not you) were trying to intimate that the VCC program had many initial reasons for it's existence. The only reason the VCC program came about was as a tool to make the strike irrelevant to the operation. The other stuff may be a nicety but is not important.
It is also important, I think, to stress that BA - or indeed any company facing strike action has a right and a duty to it's shareholders to try to fight the essentially thuggish action of industrial blackmail. The view that it is somehow disrepectful of the strikers, or in some way underhand is very childish and naive. It is the stance of a small child in a playground that somehow thinks there are no consequences to their actions. A small child will often scream that something is unfair when they don't get their own way, a bit like the constant whine heard from BASSA supporters about the VCCs. Maybe the strike would have been successful if there had been no VCC's but then if I had won the lottery last night I would be a millionaire - it's not fair the machine did not pick my numbers.
I apologise, hula, my post came across as a criticism of what you said, and that was not my intent.
JT
It is also important, I think, to stress that BA - or indeed any company facing strike action has a right and a duty to it's shareholders to try to fight the essentially thuggish action of industrial blackmail. The view that it is somehow disrepectful of the strikers, or in some way underhand is very childish and naive. It is the stance of a small child in a playground that somehow thinks there are no consequences to their actions. A small child will often scream that something is unfair when they don't get their own way, a bit like the constant whine heard from BASSA supporters about the VCCs. Maybe the strike would have been successful if there had been no VCC's but then if I had won the lottery last night I would be a millionaire - it's not fair the machine did not pick my numbers.
I apologise, hula, my post came across as a criticism of what you said, and that was not my intent.
JT
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I have to say that Miss M's views have softened a lot since when she/he first started posting. I see this as very positive and I feel it is just human nature that she/he defends herself.
I am pleased you come on here Miss M and give us your views. Some of us have been able to explain to you why we did come in to work and I genuinely hope this has helped you understand why everyone was not united in this IA.
It is hard to talk at work and I do think it helps to have these adult conversations without either side insulting each other.
So thank you Miss M for sharing your views.
I am pleased you come on here Miss M and give us your views. Some of us have been able to explain to you why we did come in to work and I genuinely hope this has helped you understand why everyone was not united in this IA.
It is hard to talk at work and I do think it helps to have these adult conversations without either side insulting each other.
So thank you Miss M for sharing your views.
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MissM
BA offered, as some of you claim, Mixed Fleet to be integrated with EF and WW fleets
Did you read any of the BA proposals or ESS information from BA ( aswell as info from the Union) to make a balance informed decision on matters?
As painful as it seems for some to accept that cabin crew can be a career
Last edited by hula; 3rd Apr 2011 at 16:53.
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MissM
As you say you have 28 years to go,if you were to retire at 65, I can see that you would be concerned about how your long term future will pan out in the airline industry of today. I hear your fears and understand them, I really do. I am grateful to be older, grayer and nearer retirement, but I know my remaining 10 years may well be far from a smooth ride.
It's a very daunting prospect looking that far into the future, especially when we are in such a volotile business as the airline business.
Not only is aviation competetive in a way it's never been before, but terrorism, environmental issues and the massive growth of the economies of countries we never immagined would rival our own, all make the future of UK/European/US aviation look rather uncertain long term.
That's essentially what all this dispute is about. It's a watershed moment between the old aviation business we've known and loved for all these years and the new one where things will not and cannot be, the same as before.
That's why BA has dug it's heels in and not backed down. It can't afford to.
I just don't think everyone has grasped the emormity of the challenges we face and it's not helped by BASSA belittling it, by it's "It's just so the managers can get their big bonusses" rhetoric, whenever efficiencies are mentioned. It's irresponsible, childish and makes us look like ignorant dimwits.
The only future for BA, is one in which it meets competetive challenge head on and does things in ways differently to the way it did before.
Twenty eight years is a massive time in aviation and NOBODY can have any cast iron gaurantee of their future.
However the best you can do, is do your individual bit to make the company strong and work WITH the Company to find solutions to problems. And hope. And form a plan B.
This does not mean capitulate and agree to everything it wants, but be adult enough to aknowledge the problem and come up with realistic (properly costed) alternatives.
That's BASSA's problem. That sort of relationship is not in it's DNA and until it has a total clear out of it's current leadership, it won't be able to fit the bill.
I will NEVER rejoin Unite, until the candidates for the leadership, in their election blurb write such things as, "... degree in Business and Economics.......determined to build a new constructive working relationship.... promise to tell you the truth about BA's predicament, even if it's something you won't want to hear..." If I read, "fight for your hard won terms and conditions without compromise etc...." then I'll stay out I'm afraid to say, because by sticking to their outdated practices, they are doing their best to HARM my future, not protect it.
As you say you have 28 years to go,if you were to retire at 65, I can see that you would be concerned about how your long term future will pan out in the airline industry of today. I hear your fears and understand them, I really do. I am grateful to be older, grayer and nearer retirement, but I know my remaining 10 years may well be far from a smooth ride.
It's a very daunting prospect looking that far into the future, especially when we are in such a volotile business as the airline business.
Not only is aviation competetive in a way it's never been before, but terrorism, environmental issues and the massive growth of the economies of countries we never immagined would rival our own, all make the future of UK/European/US aviation look rather uncertain long term.
That's essentially what all this dispute is about. It's a watershed moment between the old aviation business we've known and loved for all these years and the new one where things will not and cannot be, the same as before.
That's why BA has dug it's heels in and not backed down. It can't afford to.
I just don't think everyone has grasped the emormity of the challenges we face and it's not helped by BASSA belittling it, by it's "It's just so the managers can get their big bonusses" rhetoric, whenever efficiencies are mentioned. It's irresponsible, childish and makes us look like ignorant dimwits.
The only future for BA, is one in which it meets competetive challenge head on and does things in ways differently to the way it did before.
Twenty eight years is a massive time in aviation and NOBODY can have any cast iron gaurantee of their future.
However the best you can do, is do your individual bit to make the company strong and work WITH the Company to find solutions to problems. And hope. And form a plan B.
This does not mean capitulate and agree to everything it wants, but be adult enough to aknowledge the problem and come up with realistic (properly costed) alternatives.
That's BASSA's problem. That sort of relationship is not in it's DNA and until it has a total clear out of it's current leadership, it won't be able to fit the bill.
I will NEVER rejoin Unite, until the candidates for the leadership, in their election blurb write such things as, "... degree in Business and Economics.......determined to build a new constructive working relationship.... promise to tell you the truth about BA's predicament, even if it's something you won't want to hear..." If I read, "fight for your hard won terms and conditions without compromise etc...." then I'll stay out I'm afraid to say, because by sticking to their outdated practices, they are doing their best to HARM my future, not protect it.
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prism
Everyone is free to decide whether they want to belong to a union or not. Personally I would rather belong to a union and at least be eligible to vote. I have voted yes for every industrial action in the past and want to be able to vote no in the future should I change my mind. Working for BA without union representation would be a less pleasant experience.
Surrey Towers
Nobody is forcing you to listen to what I have to say, less take the time to reply to my silly replies.
I will never join BA in what they are building if it at the same puts an end to my own career. It would be suicide.
Betty Girl
You are most welcome.
Everyone had their individual reason(s) for voting against industrial action and/ or crossing the picket line as much as everyone who voted for industrial action and went on strike.
It's a great shame that it had to go as far as to an actual strike but this is where we are.
Hula
I have read the proposals put forward both by BA and BASSA. One day the integrated fleet was there, the other day it was gone.
I'm glad you agree that cabin crew can be made a caeer. Seeing as it has repeatedly on several forums that cabin crew should only be made for a few years as it's too costly for the company and it's better with a good turnover of crew as it keeps the level of motivation maintained, it's nice with a different opinion, although it appears for everyone else in the company to create themselves a career. Let's not forget that some have openly admitted what a fresh piece of air it is to fly with Mixed Fleet crew and at another discussion thread it has been discussed that Mixed Fleet is all about the company's customers. What are EF and WW fleets all about then? Surprisingly as it may sound, some of us are very devoted to our job and to read this sort of stuff is not very pleasing.
Everyone is free to decide whether they want to belong to a union or not. Personally I would rather belong to a union and at least be eligible to vote. I have voted yes for every industrial action in the past and want to be able to vote no in the future should I change my mind. Working for BA without union representation would be a less pleasant experience.
Surrey Towers
Nobody is forcing you to listen to what I have to say, less take the time to reply to my silly replies.
I will never join BA in what they are building if it at the same puts an end to my own career. It would be suicide.
Betty Girl
You are most welcome.
Everyone had their individual reason(s) for voting against industrial action and/ or crossing the picket line as much as everyone who voted for industrial action and went on strike.
It's a great shame that it had to go as far as to an actual strike but this is where we are.
Hula
I have read the proposals put forward both by BA and BASSA. One day the integrated fleet was there, the other day it was gone.
I'm glad you agree that cabin crew can be made a caeer. Seeing as it has repeatedly on several forums that cabin crew should only be made for a few years as it's too costly for the company and it's better with a good turnover of crew as it keeps the level of motivation maintained, it's nice with a different opinion, although it appears for everyone else in the company to create themselves a career. Let's not forget that some have openly admitted what a fresh piece of air it is to fly with Mixed Fleet crew and at another discussion thread it has been discussed that Mixed Fleet is all about the company's customers. What are EF and WW fleets all about then? Surprisingly as it may sound, some of us are very devoted to our job and to read this sort of stuff is not very pleasing.
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Miss M
VCC who chose to prolong our dispute by filling our positions when they really should have minded their own business
back in those days the new contract tier was integrated with existing fleets and was not a threat
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Quite a while ago, I made the point - completely ignored by all - that existing cabin crew have the luxury of several years to adapt to Mixed Fleet and other changes. I can point to cases either inside and and outside BA where employees have suffered base, office or factory closures, have had to move home to get to their new place of work, were told by their union to take VR as nothing better was available, or even were dismissed at short notice.
And I might point out the bleeding obvious that it's better to face uncertainty inside your company than face it outside. It's almost incredible that people like MissM would be prepared to strike until BA goes bust.
And I might point out the bleeding obvious that it's better to face uncertainty inside your company than face it outside. It's almost incredible that people like MissM would be prepared to strike until BA goes bust.
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Working for BA without union representation would be a less pleasant experience.
I made the point - completely ignored by all
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Rotten leadership
So back to the question of how we're going to get out of this mess, this from the branch secretary;
Remember BA also need to know we - that is BASSA - are genuine in our attemtps to resolve matters. We have to respect the two way process. Let me end this message with a couple of cliches - I hope they make sense. Apologies for having to be cryptic.
We should not make the hole Keith Williams is trying to get out of any bigger while he is - hopefully - thinking of ways to get Walsh's genie back in the bottle.
A few things leap out of that, demonstrating the mindset of someone out of control with no clear plan. Starting fights is always easier than ending them, especially when you've got a bloody nose.
How are BASSA going to demonstrate that they genuinely want peace? Its not their style. What gesture, aside from not announcing strike dates can they make? The mandate runs out in 3 weeks or so, then what another ballot?
The other point is he's saying that BA/Keith is in a hole. Is that right or is it that BASSA are in a deep hole and have been digging furiously for some time- mainly out of anger and the desire for revenge. The implication that BA want to get the "Walsh genie" back in the bottle is surely fundamentally flawed. Mixed fleet is here to stay, cost savings have been made on a permanent basis (against their will) and no extra crew will be reintroduced onboard. What genie is he referring to in his cryptic rambling?
The guy suffers from a psychological phenomena known as projection. He projects his/their failings on others. eg they are bullying us, they need to dig themselves out, they know they're losing, they need a deal, they don't have the stomach to continue. Just reverse the subject, where he writes "they" put "us", "BA" put "BASSA", "Williams/Walsh" put "Holley/Malone".
You could not imagine worse "leadership" in such an important situation. So many crew have put their trust in these people and they're just clueless. We need better representation, it can't get any worse.
Back to those BASSA accounts, still nothing.....
Originally Posted by Duncan Holley
Remember BA also need to know we - that is BASSA - are genuine in our attemtps to resolve matters. We have to respect the two way process. Let me end this message with a couple of cliches - I hope they make sense. Apologies for having to be cryptic.
We should not make the hole Keith Williams is trying to get out of any bigger while he is - hopefully - thinking of ways to get Walsh's genie back in the bottle.
How are BASSA going to demonstrate that they genuinely want peace? Its not their style. What gesture, aside from not announcing strike dates can they make? The mandate runs out in 3 weeks or so, then what another ballot?
The other point is he's saying that BA/Keith is in a hole. Is that right or is it that BASSA are in a deep hole and have been digging furiously for some time- mainly out of anger and the desire for revenge. The implication that BA want to get the "Walsh genie" back in the bottle is surely fundamentally flawed. Mixed fleet is here to stay, cost savings have been made on a permanent basis (against their will) and no extra crew will be reintroduced onboard. What genie is he referring to in his cryptic rambling?
The guy suffers from a psychological phenomena known as projection. He projects his/their failings on others. eg they are bullying us, they need to dig themselves out, they know they're losing, they need a deal, they don't have the stomach to continue. Just reverse the subject, where he writes "they" put "us", "BA" put "BASSA", "Williams/Walsh" put "Holley/Malone".
You could not imagine worse "leadership" in such an important situation. So many crew have put their trust in these people and they're just clueless. We need better representation, it can't get any worse.
Back to those BASSA accounts, still nothing.....
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MissM.
From a personal point of view, what are the positive aspects of your career as cabin crew and working for BA?
What will be the positive aspects of continuing this career with a company you clearly despise?
There are other airlines recruiting cabin crew, why not pursue your career with them?
What motivates you to keep pursuing your career with BA?
I've only read negativity so far.
From a personal point of view, what are the positive aspects of your career as cabin crew and working for BA?
What will be the positive aspects of continuing this career with a company you clearly despise?
There are other airlines recruiting cabin crew, why not pursue your career with them?
What motivates you to keep pursuing your career with BA?
I've only read negativity so far.
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At least I tried, once again, and after having read some posts it's better to leave this forum again.
Am I apologist for BASSA? No, as I have said they have made many mistakes in the past.
I'm not a BASSA troll or anything the likes of it despite my whinging and my "long posts, and at such frequency." Feel free to search through my posts if you want. In case you didn't know, you can use your computer downroute too and not only when you're off due to your 75% contract.
Good luck with your one-way conversation and speculations.
Am I apologist for BASSA? No, as I have said they have made many mistakes in the past.
I'm not a BASSA troll or anything the likes of it despite my whinging and my "long posts, and at such frequency." Feel free to search through my posts if you want. In case you didn't know, you can use your computer downroute too and not only when you're off due to your 75% contract.
Good luck with your one-way conversation and speculations.
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please don't go Miss M! The only way we are all going to get out of this mess is by talking. Those that refer to you as a whinger should pick their toys up and put them back in the pram. The more I read from you the more I understand that the gap between our thinking is not too large or insumountable. It will get settled sooner or later, there are brighter times ahead.
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I agree with Flying Nunn; Miss M there are those on hear that have a go at any crew and it does not matter if you worked or did not, so please I am interested in your opinions.
They are not that far away from many of ours, it is just that we wanted to go about getting results in a different way!
They are not that far away from many of ours, it is just that we wanted to go about getting results in a different way!
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The union is not by all means flawless. They have made many mistakes in the past. But, they have also negotiated some of the best terms and conditions in the country. Terms and conditions which you, and everyone else who crossed the picket line, are enjoying.
1. BASSA did not "negotiate" at all. It was Amicus who signed the Long Range Agreement and many of the other "lucrative" deals.
2. I left the Union almost two years ago. Since then, I have signed my own offer with BA and now enjoy the luxury of a payrise, a top-up payment and a guarantee of my existing T&Cs.
So my existing T&Cs have been arranged by...me!Many of us opted out, and are now benefiting enormously from having done so. As Ottergirl said "extraordinarily liberating" and also financially beneficial. Those, like yourself, who stayed with the Union are simply throwing good money after bad and the union have achieved absolutely nothing for the members in two years.
Would you continue paying a Solicitor to fight your case if after two years all they had done is cost you money? And staff travel? And part-time positions? And the respect of our customers? And the rest of BA?
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Miss M, I have just returned from a trip to a destination where internet access was both pricey & dicey, so haven't read the thread for a number of days.
For now, please let me say that your presence here is greatly valued by many, me much included. This cabin crew thread is only as good as its cabin crew contributions.
Your contributions are informative, well written and measured in tone.
Please keep sharing your thoughts with us.
-------------------------
flapsforty
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For now, please let me say that your presence here is greatly valued by many, me much included. This cabin crew thread is only as good as its cabin crew contributions.
Your contributions are informative, well written and measured in tone.
Please keep sharing your thoughts with us.
-------------------------
flapsforty
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I congratulate Miss M for coming on here and arguing the opposite view to the majority.
I also applaud those who do the same on the BASSA and other sister forums.
Even though it's a forum it still takes "balls".
If only people on all sides would play the ball instead of the player a debate might be able to happen.
This is also true of the whole situation.
Both sides have blame on their shoulders. BA have played the PR war on all fronts perfectly, and out manoeuvred UNITE / BASSA at every turn because BASSA are so predictable.
Shame. What all workers need is a union that's in the 21st century, not one that thinks the miners had it all sorted.
I also applaud those who do the same on the BASSA and other sister forums.
Even though it's a forum it still takes "balls".
If only people on all sides would play the ball instead of the player a debate might be able to happen.
This is also true of the whole situation.
Both sides have blame on their shoulders. BA have played the PR war on all fronts perfectly, and out manoeuvred UNITE / BASSA at every turn because BASSA are so predictable.
Shame. What all workers need is a union that's in the 21st century, not one that thinks the miners had it all sorted.
There is very little that MM says that I agree with. However I do hope she/he continues to post, as has been said, a balanced debate is far more interesting and it is good to consider views that do not match your own in order to get a good picture of the situation.
In the words of Van Morrison: Baby please don't go!!!!
In the words of Van Morrison: Baby please don't go!!!!