BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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The Moo:
I think your take on things is very reasonable and I think that KW should be considering doing these things if he really wants an end to this dispute. Removal of staff travel for a year has been long enough and had it been returned in full earlier I feel this dispute could already have been over and done with.
Personally I can't see any reason why BA and Unite cannot settle if this is what it will take to resolve the dispute. Do you think that BASSA and the majority of the 5,811 still in favour of IA will be happy with your take on how to resolve it?
I think your take on things is very reasonable and I think that KW should be considering doing these things if he really wants an end to this dispute. Removal of staff travel for a year has been long enough and had it been returned in full earlier I feel this dispute could already have been over and done with.
Personally I can't see any reason why BA and Unite cannot settle if this is what it will take to resolve the dispute. Do you think that BASSA and the majority of the 5,811 still in favour of IA will be happy with your take on how to resolve it?
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Originally Posted by Watersidewonker
So over 83% then looks like all the VCC's will be over the moon with this result a chance to back the regime once again enjoying a nice Easter break in Lagos,Doha,Miami and many more super destinations.
Oh so Bassa doesn't have the backing how wrong most of you were in thinking that.
I know the fight for survival is still on alas the £2,000,000,000 in the bank just doesn't seem enough anymore has anyone seen the light yet ????
Let's hope Keith and Len can find a deal if not it will be burger and chips for lunch at Bedfont once again. Good result my Bassa friends keeping the faith once again.
There won't be a strike. BASSA Reps have been telling crew that they fly with that the next step will be to announce strike dates, then cancel them. Then Re-ballot, round and around the BASSA merry go round until BA gives into their demands.
So, BASSA and Unite have acknowledged that they can't strike over this anymore - it is all a continuation of the previous nonsense, and therefore has no more strike 'protection' from dismissal. But neither can they endlessly play the 'ballot, call a strike, but don't strike' game either - that will land them in court again, on the losing side, again.
The result of all this? Game, set and, match to BA. A final loss for BASSA and Unite! Its all over - you got your arses well and truly kicked!
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Watersidewonker
Your last two posts illustrate for me what BA are up against. In my last post I made same serious points about BASSA's performance, and about how things have got worse for you with every ballot, and yet all you can think of is burger and chips at Bedfont.......again? Where does this incredible faith you and 5810 others (which is is more like 42% of cabin crew, not 83%) have in BASSA come from?
Am I to assume that you and other hardliners believe that BASSA have done rather a good job so far? Do you really believe that this next round of strikes will strengthen BASSA's hand? If you turn up at the picket line instead of the CRC are you really that confident that it will convince BA to give in?
Can someone please come on here and explain why they're still supporting BASSA, despite all their mistakes and despite the numerous allegations of corruption in their ranks? How is it that you all have such faith in a leader who has nothing to lose if BA don't back down? How do you feel about BASSA's silence on their financial accounts?
Actual answers please, not just rhetoric.
Am I to assume that you and other hardliners believe that BASSA have done rather a good job so far? Do you really believe that this next round of strikes will strengthen BASSA's hand? If you turn up at the picket line instead of the CRC are you really that confident that it will convince BA to give in?
Can someone please come on here and explain why they're still supporting BASSA, despite all their mistakes and despite the numerous allegations of corruption in their ranks? How is it that you all have such faith in a leader who has nothing to lose if BA don't back down? How do you feel about BASSA's silence on their financial accounts?
Actual answers please, not just rhetoric.
Last edited by 123breath; 29th Mar 2011 at 05:16.
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To solve the issues my take would be.
Restore all staff travel as it's a no cost and you could sell it to " backing ba people as we have punished them for a yr "
Loss of crew member or 2 . get over it we have coped unless you have a lazy t@%t of a csd.
Sackings - Some people deserved it and some didn't so let an idependent people have a look.
New fleet will work or won't. We can't legally change that.
Restore all staff travel as it's a no cost and you could sell it to " backing ba people as we have punished them for a yr "
Loss of crew member or 2 . get over it we have coped unless you have a lazy t@%t of a csd.
Sackings - Some people deserved it and some didn't so let an idependent people have a look.
New fleet will work or won't. We can't legally change that.
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Mr Moo,
I agree with you that the near 6000 yes votes does give the clear message that these BA crew are unhappy.
But why are they unhappy? Why are they continually voting to strike? What do they want? As a CSD I have spoken to numerous crew over the last few months and to try and find out. I have listened and questioned their personal reasons for striking and I have found it quite disturbing and surprising what I have heard. So much so I have given up on trying to explain the FACTs as quite simply I am bored of talking about it.
The reasons I have heard range from....
1. they want to change my contract? Really?...show me where....
2. signing the new deal means we are signing away the redeployment agreement. Again...show me where it says this?
3. I live in MAN, GLA, EDI, BCN etc and will be never spoken to again....Christ, get a backbone!
4. Do you want to work for £2.40 an hour? And where does it say this?
5. If I sign the new deal I will be put on Mixed Fleet.
6. I want guarantees for the future....dream on, don't we all!
7. Staff travel returned...BA were honest to you about this and BASSA lied to you about getting it back
I can honestly say I don't know what will make these people happy again. A new job perhaps?
I agree with you that the near 6000 yes votes does give the clear message that these BA crew are unhappy.
But why are they unhappy? Why are they continually voting to strike? What do they want? As a CSD I have spoken to numerous crew over the last few months and to try and find out. I have listened and questioned their personal reasons for striking and I have found it quite disturbing and surprising what I have heard. So much so I have given up on trying to explain the FACTs as quite simply I am bored of talking about it.
The reasons I have heard range from....
1. they want to change my contract? Really?...show me where....
2. signing the new deal means we are signing away the redeployment agreement. Again...show me where it says this?
3. I live in MAN, GLA, EDI, BCN etc and will be never spoken to again....Christ, get a backbone!
4. Do you want to work for £2.40 an hour? And where does it say this?
5. If I sign the new deal I will be put on Mixed Fleet.
6. I want guarantees for the future....dream on, don't we all!
7. Staff travel returned...BA were honest to you about this and BASSA lied to you about getting it back
I can honestly say I don't know what will make these people happy again. A new job perhaps?
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Yes Hula thats exactly what I have come across on flights. I would also add
8) I want more respect.
All of these seem to me to be skirting around the real truth. That people don't want the inevitable MF and all that it will bring with it, a real change in lifestyle, something that as I say is inevitable.
A word about the numbers, They have stayed robust throughout, you have to admire the perserverance. They may be wrong but they are being wrong together!
As a CSD I went to work 4 times during the last strikes and forgetting VCC's 60-70% turned up to work so there clearly are a section who will vote to strike but will not actually follow it through. i sometimes throw that into the mix but people will not accept these facts.
8) I want more respect.
All of these seem to me to be skirting around the real truth. That people don't want the inevitable MF and all that it will bring with it, a real change in lifestyle, something that as I say is inevitable.
A word about the numbers, They have stayed robust throughout, you have to admire the perserverance. They may be wrong but they are being wrong together!
As a CSD I went to work 4 times during the last strikes and forgetting VCC's 60-70% turned up to work so there clearly are a section who will vote to strike but will not actually follow it through. i sometimes throw that into the mix but people will not accept these facts.
Last edited by bigby; 29th Mar 2011 at 08:19.
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Strange coincidence, the same day the union published the very depressing ballot results BA pays everyone a reward for having kept the flag flying.
Give them back staff travel and I am sure this action will be seen as a sort of victory followed by I told you so slogans and probably more pointless demands added to the list.
The hate and mistrust of ba by some individuals will be always be superior to whatever the company is prepared to offer or not to take away.
Give them back staff travel and I am sure this action will be seen as a sort of victory followed by I told you so slogans and probably more pointless demands added to the list.
The hate and mistrust of ba by some individuals will be always be superior to whatever the company is prepared to offer or not to take away.
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Just been thinking. I guess that if this goes to court on whether this is an unrelated strike to the first, then BASSA are going to argue that the issues are all new.
So I guess as it's a new dispute, then it's time for a BASSA election?
So I guess as it's a new dispute, then it's time for a BASSA election?
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I'm not sure that I agree that there are 5811 genuinely unhappy crew; I think there are about 50 unhappy crew (who embrace misery as a default option whatever the industrial situation; we all know the sort, you will hear them on the bus moaning about everything) and the rest who either
a) have been hoodwinked by some quite clever rhetoric into believing all that tripe that hula mentioned or
b) don't really believe it but think that it's important to show solidarity with your fellow crew either through fear or a need to be liked.
I would also bet that out of the 5811, most are really sick of the whole thing and just wish it would go away. The YES voters who will show up for work probably fall into category b) as they care but not enough to lose pay over it.
The whole situation is looking increasingly pathetic and it's time they were allowed to strike, eat burgers at Bedfont and stay there until they realise how unbothered everyone else is. Think of Bedfont as a 'naughty step'!
a) have been hoodwinked by some quite clever rhetoric into believing all that tripe that hula mentioned or
b) don't really believe it but think that it's important to show solidarity with your fellow crew either through fear or a need to be liked.
I would also bet that out of the 5811, most are really sick of the whole thing and just wish it would go away. The YES voters who will show up for work probably fall into category b) as they care but not enough to lose pay over it.
The whole situation is looking increasingly pathetic and it's time they were allowed to strike, eat burgers at Bedfont and stay there until they realise how unbothered everyone else is. Think of Bedfont as a 'naughty step'!
I am listening to the debate on Radio 5 Live re the dispute. Quite lively with a lady from PCCC trying to defend her point of view.
However I am just speechless as a BASSAmentalist has just been on and called it the 'BA Kristal nacht'. These idiots have either no shame or no idea of 20th century history.
If they think one crew member off the aircraft and losing staff travel equates to the burning of synangogues, destruction of Jewish business's, murder and deportation of jews and the burning of jewish books then I am living in a different world.
it truly disgusts me.
However I am just speechless as a BASSAmentalist has just been on and called it the 'BA Kristal nacht'. These idiots have either no shame or no idea of 20th century history.
If they think one crew member off the aircraft and losing staff travel equates to the burning of synangogues, destruction of Jewish business's, murder and deportation of jews and the burning of jewish books then I am living in a different world.
it truly disgusts me.
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However I am just speechless as a BASSAmentalist has just been on and called it the 'BA Kristal nacht'. These idiots have either no shame or no idea of 20th century history.
Then I've have Apartheid thrown at me - I can tell you that the 30year old who said that one got both barrels from me. I visited S.Africa in the dark days of Apartheid many times, and I will NEVER forget it. Yes its Duncan's war stories being copied by the brothers. No better than the 'Yellow' flowers being brought to a meeting to be later laid at the Manchester crash memorial. Sick b******s.Ottergirl
I'm not sure that I agree that there are 5811 genuinely unhappy crew; I think there are about 50 unhappy crew
The whole situation is looking increasingly pathetic and it's time they were allowed to strike, eat burgers at Bedfont and stay there until they realise how unbothered everyone else is. Think of Bedfont as a 'naughty step'!
Hula and Bigby
I have done the same too for months. Same questions. I now cannot be bothered either. What I won't allow though, is for one of them to take over and try to influence the rest of the crew with Bassa rubbish. I suppose I've gone from being proactive to just reactive now when dealing with the dispute
The big problem here lies fairly and squarely in the hands of the 4500ish crew who are STILL members of Bassa. They vote either no or the majority don't even bother. I thought the last ballot when there were 3000 non voters, were mainly made up of crew who had left the union but still got a ballot paper. ( I know of 4 crew myself). None of them this time got a ballot paper. So it seems there are still 1000's out there in this situation. I worked with a lovely crew member at the weekend who was one of these crew. Been flying 20 odd years, did not strike, won't strike in the future, but STILL is a Bassa member. After a nice 10 min chat, they realised their money was not just being wasted, but more importantly being used to fuel the fire. They will hopefully have now resigned
But this is the dilemma. These seemingly intelligent people are literally burying their heads in the sand, and don't realise the damage they are doing. It's innocent on the one hand but deadly in its execution. I JUST DON'T GET IT. AT WHAT POINT DO YOU RESIGN CONSIDERING ALL OF THE STUFF THAT HAPPENED AS WELL AS DH'S MESSAGE ABOUT FIFO.I really wish someone could explain this to me, because sadly IMO, if only these crew resigned, Bassa would be derecognised and we could all move on.
Last edited by JUAN TRIPP; 29th Mar 2011 at 10:48.
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I think you'll find April 2013 is 24 months away.
I note with interest that no one from the BASSA camp have answered my call for an explanation for the undying faith you seem to have in your leadership, despite all their failings.
I also note that, apparently, everyone has been paid the bonus, including strikers. Of course they will say that they contributed to the profit that BA made, but there is a strong counter argument.......they have caused and still are causing serious financial damage to BA, wiping out any savings made by the introduction of MF. BASSA's response to that bonus? The prospect of another strike.
Who's being unreasonable here?
I note with interest that no one from the BASSA camp have answered my call for an explanation for the undying faith you seem to have in your leadership, despite all their failings.
I also note that, apparently, everyone has been paid the bonus, including strikers. Of course they will say that they contributed to the profit that BA made, but there is a strong counter argument.......they have caused and still are causing serious financial damage to BA, wiping out any savings made by the introduction of MF. BASSA's response to that bonus? The prospect of another strike.
Who's being unreasonable here?
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There was a very interesting programme on BBC2 last night called 'The Brain - A Secret History'.
BBC iPlayer - The Brain: A Secret History: Mind Control
It examined how and why inteligent and rational people would do very irrational or evil things, such as Germans becoming Death Camp guards or US PoWs during the Korean War denouncing America.
In the programme they showed an experiment from the 1960s where members of the general public had to help someone to learn by giving them a larger and larger electric shock every time the learner got a question wrong. This went upto and including a lethal voltage. Prior to the show the members of the public thought only psychopaths would administer the lethal voltage but in the end 3/4 of them did. (The learner was played by an actor pretending to be electrocuted).
The conclusion was that people would do things totally alien to them if persuaded by people, that they deem to be in authority, that it was the right thing to do.
My point is that to some, the BASSA leadership, is seen to be a proper authority and that they will therefore do whatever they are told, by DH and co, no matter how bizaar. Telling the group enmass that they are wrong has no effect. The only way to break the 'group think' is to talk to people individually with all the facts but as we have seen even this doesn't always work.
Regards
BBC iPlayer - The Brain: A Secret History: Mind Control
It examined how and why inteligent and rational people would do very irrational or evil things, such as Germans becoming Death Camp guards or US PoWs during the Korean War denouncing America.
In the programme they showed an experiment from the 1960s where members of the general public had to help someone to learn by giving them a larger and larger electric shock every time the learner got a question wrong. This went upto and including a lethal voltage. Prior to the show the members of the public thought only psychopaths would administer the lethal voltage but in the end 3/4 of them did. (The learner was played by an actor pretending to be electrocuted).
The conclusion was that people would do things totally alien to them if persuaded by people, that they deem to be in authority, that it was the right thing to do.
My point is that to some, the BASSA leadership, is seen to be a proper authority and that they will therefore do whatever they are told, by DH and co, no matter how bizaar. Telling the group enmass that they are wrong has no effect. The only way to break the 'group think' is to talk to people individually with all the facts but as we have seen even this doesn't always work.
Regards
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Is BASSA anti-semitic ?
I've just had the dubious pleasure of listening to the Victoria Derbyshire prog from earlier on today and wondered whether it was a precondition of BASSA that members were rabid anti-semites. I recall in August last year, some unspeakable lout who claimed to be cabin crew chose to turn up at Kempton with a star of David sewn to his shirt with the word BASSA written across it, a flagrant attempt to draw parallels between the cabin crew dispute and the suffering of millions of jews in Nazi occupied Europe in the period 1938-45. A more distasteful comment is hard to find, at least I thought so until I heard another cabin crew member on the recording of today's show liken the situation with cabin crew to Kristallnacht. For those who are unaware of what this means to Jewish people.let me explain.
Kristallnacht, also to referred to as the Night of Broken Glass, and also Reichskristallnacht, Pogromnacht, and Novemberpogrome, was a pogrom or series of attacks against Jews throughout Nazi Germany and parts of Austria on November 9–10, 1938.
Jewish homes were ransacked, as were shops, towns and villages, as SA stormtroopers and civilians destroyed buildings with sledgehammers, leaving the streets covered in pieces of smashed windows—the origin of the name "Night of Broken Glass." Ninety-one Jews were killed, and 30,000 Jewish men—a quarter of all Jewish men in Germany—were taken to concentration camps, where they were tortured for months, with over 1,000 of them dying. Around 1,668 synagogues were ransacked, and 267 set on fire. In Vienna alone 95 synagogues or houses of prayer were destroyed.
It was one of the first events where the true intent of the Nazis was revealed, in the mass extermination of the Jews and any other groups that did not conform to the Aryan ideal. The nearest equivalent I can think of in recent times was the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia by the Serbs. To intimate that the atmosphere in a company was the same as that which the Jews in 1938 found is grossly insulting to the memory of the millions who died.
If cabin crew are targetting Easter (or more accurately Passover) does this mean we are in for further parallels being drawn with BA management taking the role of Pharoah and the BASSA executive and there cronies assuming the role of the Jewish people in Egypt. Will we see the BASSA branch secretary carrying the Torah. Will the reps be saying Kaddish for the souls of the departed (i.e. sacked) members ? What new insults are BASSA going to fling at those of the Jewish faith ?
Kristallnacht, also to referred to as the Night of Broken Glass, and also Reichskristallnacht, Pogromnacht, and Novemberpogrome, was a pogrom or series of attacks against Jews throughout Nazi Germany and parts of Austria on November 9–10, 1938.
Jewish homes were ransacked, as were shops, towns and villages, as SA stormtroopers and civilians destroyed buildings with sledgehammers, leaving the streets covered in pieces of smashed windows—the origin of the name "Night of Broken Glass." Ninety-one Jews were killed, and 30,000 Jewish men—a quarter of all Jewish men in Germany—were taken to concentration camps, where they were tortured for months, with over 1,000 of them dying. Around 1,668 synagogues were ransacked, and 267 set on fire. In Vienna alone 95 synagogues or houses of prayer were destroyed.
It was one of the first events where the true intent of the Nazis was revealed, in the mass extermination of the Jews and any other groups that did not conform to the Aryan ideal. The nearest equivalent I can think of in recent times was the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia by the Serbs. To intimate that the atmosphere in a company was the same as that which the Jews in 1938 found is grossly insulting to the memory of the millions who died.
If cabin crew are targetting Easter (or more accurately Passover) does this mean we are in for further parallels being drawn with BA management taking the role of Pharoah and the BASSA executive and there cronies assuming the role of the Jewish people in Egypt. Will we see the BASSA branch secretary carrying the Torah. Will the reps be saying Kaddish for the souls of the departed (i.e. sacked) members ? What new insults are BASSA going to fling at those of the Jewish faith ?
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Good post.
I was more amazed at VDs response: "That's an incredibly strong analogy".
Usual unbiased BBC reporting then.
29.40 mins in.
In addition the same guy has a pop at the PCCC representative for not having elected reps (yet).
When were the last BASSA elections? I seem to remember that reps elections were due about 18 months ago but they (the reps) decided that this wouldn't be good as they were in a dispute with the company. ARE there any elections planned?
Pot/kettle......
I was more amazed at VDs response: "That's an incredibly strong analogy".
Usual unbiased BBC reporting then.
29.40 mins in.
In addition the same guy has a pop at the PCCC representative for not having elected reps (yet).
When were the last BASSA elections? I seem to remember that reps elections were due about 18 months ago but they (the reps) decided that this wouldn't be good as they were in a dispute with the company. ARE there any elections planned?
Pot/kettle......
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With comments like these on the radio, I'm embarrassed to work with these people. I also now associate anyone with an orange/black 'union CREW' bag tag, supporting these views - why would you leave it on your bag otherwise.
Maybe BA should start by adding to the redundancies with this guy making the Jews analogy, that is a terrible disgrace and has no place.
This dispute has gone on for too long, can BASSA not see that mixed fleet is growing fast now - with a target of 1900+ people by the end of 2011 (and these are all full time people unlike the large numbers of legacy crew), BA can soon start to pull the high allowance routes away. It was all started by BASSA and if they continue down the route they are on, this is what will happen, in a speedy way and BA has nothing to lose.
I suggest now BA is currently overcrewed by 5811 and maybe these people should all resign and go and do a job that actually makes them happy, whilst leaving the rest of us to enjoy our jobs and provide good customer service
LTF
Maybe BA should start by adding to the redundancies with this guy making the Jews analogy, that is a terrible disgrace and has no place.
This dispute has gone on for too long, can BASSA not see that mixed fleet is growing fast now - with a target of 1900+ people by the end of 2011 (and these are all full time people unlike the large numbers of legacy crew), BA can soon start to pull the high allowance routes away. It was all started by BASSA and if they continue down the route they are on, this is what will happen, in a speedy way and BA has nothing to lose.
I suggest now BA is currently overcrewed by 5811 and maybe these people should all resign and go and do a job that actually makes them happy, whilst leaving the rest of us to enjoy our jobs and provide good customer service
LTF