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BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

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BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

Old 22nd Mar 2011, 08:17
  #3601 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,238
Maybe flying but with empty planes and oil at $115 p/b or more.
Last time the planes that were doing 'circuits' or 'off to be parked at Cardiff' were anything but empty and BA has hedged in excess of a years fuel at well below WWs' fantasy figure.

The sad fact is that the last BASSA action was inconsequential and this one will undoubtably be even less consequential. The reasoning is wrong, the timing is wrong and there is, outside of the BASSA hardcore and the SWP, no support for the IA.

Enjoy Bedfont, we'll wave as we takeoff from 09R.

At least the weather is more clement now that the inconvienient spectre of a winter strike has been 'slipped'.
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 11:57
  #3602 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: AROUND AND ABOUT
Posts: 164
Miss M

We went on strike because of the principle of imposition
Please please Miss M we have done that one to death. The hard facts were that BA waited 9 months before 'imposing' They gave Bassa loads of time, in fact they went months beyond the original June 30th 2009 deadline. So what was BA supposed to do then. I'll tell one thing. I don't know if you've met DH, spoken to him or in fact you are him?, but that man would have still been sitting there saying no now. Its sad but true. Bassa's 'great idea' was to take money off EVERYONE for 2 years - in my case £80/month, to support putting the crewing levals back to what they were. It meant poor old SFG would have contributed circa £25-40/month on their wages to 'support' good old LHR. But the piece de resistance was that it was TEMPORARY It didn't matter that it was £10m short. I have spoken to many senior crew and ex Bassa reps who have ALL said this was DH BIGGEST mistake. I agree. this was where Bassa lost a lot of support along with the 12 days of Xmas announced at the same time.

We are facing a management with a set agenda
And guess what. BA have been facing a union with a set agenda for many many years I'm afraid. Thats why we are in the mess we are with one ballot after another and an atmosphere at work thats toxic on some days. We have ALL lost, strikers, non-strikers, and even Mixed fleet, which JUST might not have happened IF Bassa would have come up with enough realistic,permanent T/C's changes to have given BA longterm savings.( Believe me there are enough on both WW and EF that could save BA a fortune and wouldn't have made a lot of differance to the crew). The best example in fact is the £127m/year saving from the crewing levals. Not the worst hardship I've found, just got to work a bit harder, smarter, differantly and be proactive.

A bidding system? It should have been introduced years ago, not when we are working on a shrinking fleet losing destinations almost every month.
Miss M, I totally agree. However, we ALL know that you can't have a bid system with the crazy differances of extras that certain destinations pay. The pilots had that one for years. Had Bassa been proactive ( there is a first time for everything) they would have seen that having having huge extra payments on a small number of flights, SIN.HKG, NRT etc, was potential disaster. In fact I spoke to a number of reps years ago about this but to no avail. Put all the money into one pot, divide it more fairly, and bingo. We could have had a bidding system. Same for allowances. When the pilots accepted £2.57/hour, we were offered the same, as well as a massive saving from the taxman. But Bassa didn't even speak to a company tax expert. No it was trashed sadly like so many things. The worst thing is that this was SO predictable. The one thing I've learnt in BA, is thatwhere money is involved,then rarely the pilots get it wrong So now there is NO chance of a bid system, and you have to bet on BA keeping their word about transferring of routes. Guarentees. Forget it. BA are now in control I'm afraid. Brilliant

PC767

I reiterate, bassa is more than the two people at the top - at any given time.
Oh how I wish it were, but sadly thats not true. DH and Lala lady have IMO a veto on any idea/suggestion others might have.

Mesmer

I believe what BA imposed on us is far better for us than what BASSA suggested and called the strike for. I also believe most of the points this ballot is about are a direct result of the BASSA reps' failure to negotiate and then instigation of a needless strike over those issues.
A perfect summery IMO

Litebulbs

Who do you think should be negotiating, Bassa or Unite?
Sorry to tell you Litebulbs, but IMO neither. Its not so much a Bassa/Unite problem but more of a problem with DH and Len. They are sadly IMO perfect for each other but NOT for this dispute. Sorry

I am sure you will agree, that it does not matter what happened before. The most important thing will be what happens in the future. Bassa could change over night if a fresh view on negotiating happens and it could still be with the current incumbents, although I admit that it will be difficult.
A lovely thought Litebulbs and I really respect you for trying to see a positive outlook in all of this, but you, me and a lot of others know thats not going to happen. There is 'difficult' and 'nigh on impossible'. A massive differance

Hiflyer14

The thing that makes my blood boil is that all of this has been so unnecessary - MF, strikes, the atmosphere at work, strikers v. non-strikers, loss of ST, treatment of crew who still have ST, pay freeze, all the appalling behaviour and subsequent disciplinaries, the list goes on. We could have had control over our own destiny, but the BASSA reps simply didn't have the intelligence or the competence to be able to do it. We were handed it on a plate and they simply gave it all away.
Also Yellow Pen #3583

Last edited by JUAN TRIPP; 22nd Mar 2011 at 12:50. Reason: added info
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 12:58
  #3603 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 871
Just to add a bit to the crazy world of BASSA negotiating skills.

When BA proposed the hourly rate for crew a committee was set up to look in to it.

The BASSA team was led by a rep who had never accepted the Diners card and funded his own down-route expenses using his own debit card. He believed cabin crew should roll back the clock to the days of picking up cash allowances at hotel reception desks.

Needless to say his response to any change to allowances was a little on the negative side.

BASSA then adopted the usual stance of NO - NO WAY - NEVER EVER!!!!

The fact that it would have been the same sum of money just divided equally and that the tax would be reduced made no difference to the BASSA attitude to change.
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 13:07
  #3604 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
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Juan Tripp

Who then, new reps or a new union?
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 13:28
  #3605 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: AROUND AND ABOUT
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Litebulbs

For me a new union. Reason being that just the name 'Bassa' is now I feel forever tainted with this dispute. We need a new start with new people and new ideas. Not saying it will work but hey who knows if you don't try.

Vctenderness

Just to add a bit to the crazy world of BASSA negotiating skills.

When BA proposed the hourly rate for crew a committee was set up to look in to it.

The BASSA team was led by a rep who had never accepted the Diners card and funded his own down-route expenses using his own debit card. He believed cabin crew should roll back the clock to the days of picking up cash allowances at hotel reception desks.

Needless to say his response to any change to allowances was a little on the negative side.

BASSA then adopted the usual stance of NO - NO WAY - NEVER EVER!!!!

The fact that it would have been the same sum of money just divided equally and that the tax would be reduced made no difference to the BASSA attitude to change.
If I remember correctly, we nearly had a potential strike when the Diners card was brought in around 1994, as Bassa believed that BA would cut our allowances when they saw we weren't spending all our money downroute.

Message to Bassa - BA knew we saved most of our allowances and still do!!
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 13:44
  #3606 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: LHR
Posts: 60
Diners Card

I remember the uproar from Bassa about the Diners/Citibank Card, it was a change to HOW we were paid, not what we were paid. CC89 supported it.
The company had evidence of how much we didn't spend but this was at the same time that Bassa were telling the courts what the allowances were in order to register it as income in the BA v T&GWU Maternity Discrimination Case.
HOSTESS system is just an updated and cheaper version of the Citibank/Diners Card System where Citibank take no commissions (would anyone trust Citibank now?)
Bassa was wrong with its NO NO NO attitude back then and is still wrong with that attitude today.
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 21:26
  #3607 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 142
Juan Tripp,

Good summing up of the situation. The following statement is so very true....

"We ALL know that you can't have a bid system with the crazy differances of extras that certain destinations pay. The pilots had that one for years. Had Bassa been proactive ( there is a first time for everything) they would have seen that having having huge extra payments on a small number of flights, SIN.HKG, NRT etc, was potential disaster. In fact I spoke to a number of reps years ago about this but to no avail. Put all the money into one pot, divide it more fairly, and bingo. We could have had a bidding system. Same for allowances. When the pilots accepted £2.57/hour, we were offered the same, as well as a massive saving from the taxman. But Bassa didn't even speak to a company tax expert. No it was trashed sadly like so many things. The worst thing is that this was SO predictable. The one thing I've learnt in BA, is that where money is involved,then rarely the pilots get it wrong"

The huge difference in the different styles of NEGOTIATION is that the BALPA guys talk to the company well before the event, they then properly research the financial implications and they then are able to present BA with a reasoned argument. They have a very good grasp of the financial realities and open and honest debate is actively encouraged with BALPA members.

On the other hand ........ bassa have shown a total inability to negotiate, they know as much about finances as I know about brain surgery, (their grasp of finances being displayed by their £173M loan which was really only about £52M) and their reasoned argument equates to 'give us what we want or we will go on strike'!!! Not only do they not have a grasp of the financial realitites, but any voice that speaks out against the bassa line is extinguished!!

No matter what happens in the next couple of weeks I think it is essential to have a total clear out of the 'top table' at bassa!
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 22:28
  #3608 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
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No matter what happens in the next couple of weeks I think it is essential to have a total clear out of the 'top table' at bassa!

Precisely Sporran. Although without a vote on that issue the BASSA members are left spinning. Poor them.
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 22:39
  #3609 (permalink)  
 
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Location: UK (and now rarely behind enemy lines but still enjoying foreign climes.)
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Put all the money into one pot, divide it more fairly, and bingo. .......... But Bassa didn't even speak to a company tax expert. No it was trashed sadly like so many things.
And it will never change with the current regime at BASSA, because they and their cohorts are the very people who abuse the system. They pick their high-allowance-earning trips and have no interest in sharing their gains with the rest of the cabin crew.
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 22:52
  #3610 (permalink)  
 
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MrBernoulli

If you round it down, then 8000 are still happy with the situation. No doubt PPRuNe comes up in converation on the Bassa forum, so I am sure many pop in here to see what is going on and they will see that many allege that the man at the top in on big bucks, paid by them.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 14:19
  #3611 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 458
If you round it down, then 8000 are still happy with the situation. No doubt PPRuNe comes up in converation on the Bassa forum, so I am sure many pop in here to see what is going on and they will see that many allege that the man at the top in on big bucks, paid by them.

Actually I very much doubt either statement to be accurate. I would suggest that the majority are completely unaware of the vast majority of facts surrounding this dispute. Some simply regurgitate what they heard from another crew member last week. Like for example the crew member who told my partner that BA was no longer allowing staff to have children. (Honestly…!!)

Their spectacular apathy is, I would offer, a large part of the reason that this matter has remained unsettled. The whole dispute rests in the hands of effectively one man, who post his dismissal at least, has little or no motivation to end it.

Have I got this completely wrong?
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 18:44
  #3612 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Their spectacular apathy is, I would offer, a large part of the reason that this matter has remained unsettled. The whole dispute rests in the hands of effectively one man, who post his dismissal at least, has little or no motivation to end it.

Have I got this completely wrong?
You are not far off the mark, although I think it is closer 60/40, the 40% being the misguided crew, who simply can't accept that BA has any right to change the manning levels onboard, as only BASSA can agree these...ahhhh do I hear cries from the BASSA can't negotiate crowd? Because you would be right on track...

KW has openly invited to resolve this dispute, but I see no movement rom BASSA/UNITE, other than the usual retoric.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 23:53
  #3613 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Message to BA cabin crew in dispute with this regime KTF
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Old 24th Mar 2011, 00:14
  #3614 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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KTF= Kissing The Frog

I'm afraid that's the only hope you have left. Your prince is just a dream, good luck
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Old 24th Mar 2011, 08:02
  #3615 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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KTF - Keep Them Flying.

At last WatersideWonker, you have seen sense. Well done.
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Old 24th Mar 2011, 21:38
  #3616 (permalink)  
Couldonlyaffordafiver
 
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Keith Threatens Firing
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Old 24th Mar 2011, 22:27
  #3617 (permalink)  
Junior trash
 
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It seems Mr Holley has now been given a written warning of arrest by Surrey police for harrasment. So in true BASSA style he starts a new thread with the same allegations.

Surely BASSA should know by now that when you are stuck in a hole of your own making that digging ought to stop.

Or is Martyrdom the goal?
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Old 25th Mar 2011, 00:26
  #3618 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 250
I think the time has come to look beyond the end of this dispute and contemplate how BASSA will be able to reconstitute itself. It is self evident that the branch will undergo significant change in structure as the various appeals to tribunals fail and members exit the organisation. The challenge will be to find people who are able to take on leading the branch. I suspect that there has been no succession planning, either that or those who one might have expected to take on larger roles have found themselves no longer in BA's employ. BASSA will need charismatic leaders who can appeal across the whole cabin crew community if they are to survive. People who truly represent the feelings of the membership. The trouble is that the roles have a lot of baggage and many will see this as a poisoned chalice. A starting point might be to reform the constitution, particularly on the issue of honorariums. Maybe now is the time to seriously consider paid union officials as opposed to lay members. It might introduce a degree of professionalism that seems to have been absent from the negotiations to date.
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Old 25th Mar 2011, 00:30
  #3619 (permalink)  
 
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Colonel White

Could be interesting, if the paid full time officials are those that have been dismissed by BA.
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Old 25th Mar 2011, 08:30
  #3620 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Originally Posted by Colonel White View Post
I think the time has come to look beyond the end of this dispute and contemplate how BASSA will be able to reconstitute itself. It is self evident that the branch will undergo significant change in structure as the various appeals to tribunals fail and members exit the organisation. The challenge will be to find people who are able to take on leading the branch. I suspect that there has been no succession planning, either that or those who one might have expected to take on larger roles have found themselves no longer in BA's employ. BASSA will need charismatic leaders who can appeal across the whole cabin crew community if they are to survive. People who truly represent the feelings of the membership. The trouble is that the roles have a lot of baggage and many will see this as a poisoned chalice. A starting point might be to reform the constitution, particularly on the issue of honorariums. Maybe now is the time to seriously consider paid union officials as opposed to lay members. It might introduce a degree of professionalism that seems to have been absent from the negotiations to date.
They have full paid officials.

The BASSA reps are LAY reps there to represent their members in cabin crew.

Unite provide full time officials who head up negotiations, when required, and deal with the legal and technical issues surrounding agreements.

In fact the TGWU and now Unite provided a FTO with no other responsibilities than dealing with cabin crew. Also the National Officers for Civil Aviation involve themselves fully with BASSA/Amicus cabin crew.

Until the members realise that BASSA reps are not doing them any good and reject them in a election ballot nothing will change.
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