BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Don't say that we haven't offered anything
What exactly have BASSA offered as a permanent saving to BA?
Nothing that comes to mind.
Negotiation is a 2 way thing. How can BA negotiate with a group of people that don't want to negotiate. BASSA seem to have regressed back to childhood, throwing a tantrum when they don't get their way, not wanting to talk about it because they are in a huff! Reminds me exactly what my son was like when he was 3 years old, unfortunately there is no naughty chair for BASSA to sit on.
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essessdeedee
BASSA chose to accept it because they had no other choice. BA would have introduced it either way as it's been on their agenda for years.
Spanner in the works
Why do I think that I should? I don't see anyone else's work being transferred to anyone else. We are losing destinations to Mixed Fleet almost every month. Sure, they have been given DEN, LAS and MRU from WW. They were not the most favourable destinations to operate but it means loss of earning.
BA have said that they have no intention of starving us out of work. In such case I can't understand why they can't agree to a legally binding contract. Surely it couldn't mean that they have no intention of not keeping their word, could it?
Wirbelsturm
As I said above, none of their work is being outsourced to anyone else.
With the risk of being banned, I won't mention a particular work group in this company, but they would go on strike immediately if they were in our situation and facing their work being transferred to a fleet with less terms and conditions.
BASSA chose to accept it because they had no other choice. BA would have introduced it either way as it's been on their agenda for years.
Spanner in the works
Why do I think that I should? I don't see anyone else's work being transferred to anyone else. We are losing destinations to Mixed Fleet almost every month. Sure, they have been given DEN, LAS and MRU from WW. They were not the most favourable destinations to operate but it means loss of earning.
BA have said that they have no intention of starving us out of work. In such case I can't understand why they can't agree to a legally binding contract. Surely it couldn't mean that they have no intention of not keeping their word, could it?
Wirbelsturm
As I said above, none of their work is being outsourced to anyone else.
With the risk of being banned, I won't mention a particular work group in this company, but they would go on strike immediately if they were in our situation and facing their work being transferred to a fleet with less terms and conditions.
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In such case I can't understand why they can't agree to a legally binding contract
I'll have to defer to Litebulbs on that matter.
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keel beam
For what my opinion is worth, yes they can. The more I explore this sort of thing with legal, the more I realise how unsubstantial the substantial part of SOSR is.
Whether you could argue that they had a substantial reason a few years back, but chose not to act in that manner and they are now in a better place, would still probably fail the test.
Whether you could argue that they had a substantial reason a few years back, but chose not to act in that manner and they are now in a better place, would still probably fail the test.
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As I said above, none of their work is being outsourced to anyone else.
When change occurs then rational negotiation is what seperates those who you won't mention and the BASSA fiasco. BASSA wouldn't budge on changing old, out dated and occasionally ludicrous T's & C's and now you all seem surprised that the company had to find another way. If changes had been implemented years ago then New Fleet would not have been required. BASSA, as usual threw limbs to the wolves to protect LHR WW crews.
Sadly this whole mess could have been avoided by BASSA and it lies solely at their feet that they find themselves in such a mess. It is the victims of their mess that I have the most sympathy for.
As to 'the other group' they have always negotiated and headed off the confrontation before it arose. Why do you think they are on different terms/payments than the CC from a fair few years back and get fed up being asked to slow up for box payments. Please don't try and use OS again as the rational behind that dispute was totally different to yours.
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Miss M
20 years ago you may have got a legally binding agreement but in 2011 when even Civil Servants, Police officers, Soldiers and all the traditionally safe jobs are facing redundancies, you (we) don't have a prayer. Can you think of a single profession or job where they are guaranteed their job 5 years from now? The employment market has changed and the only way to protect your future is to be indispensable! Make sure that your customers are telling BA that they prefer to fly with legacy crews because our experience and professionalism make it a better flight. Use the time to plan for the future in case the job turns out to be unpalatable but enjoy the time you have now. I will not be encouraging either of my children to look at aviation for a career, whichever side of the cockpit door they want to sit on, because this industry will be unrecognisable in another 20 years time. You may as well ask BA for a free car for every crew member, it is just as likely they will agree to that as a binding guarantee.
OG
20 years ago you may have got a legally binding agreement but in 2011 when even Civil Servants, Police officers, Soldiers and all the traditionally safe jobs are facing redundancies, you (we) don't have a prayer. Can you think of a single profession or job where they are guaranteed their job 5 years from now? The employment market has changed and the only way to protect your future is to be indispensable! Make sure that your customers are telling BA that they prefer to fly with legacy crews because our experience and professionalism make it a better flight. Use the time to plan for the future in case the job turns out to be unpalatable but enjoy the time you have now. I will not be encouraging either of my children to look at aviation for a career, whichever side of the cockpit door they want to sit on, because this industry will be unrecognisable in another 20 years time. You may as well ask BA for a free car for every crew member, it is just as likely they will agree to that as a binding guarantee.
OG
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How many times have we not heard about this? Many, many times.
As said in many postings, no one is bullet proof in their job.
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Wirbelsturm
A little give and take? I don't remember the exact details but BA did ask for a lot of sacrifices for Mixed Fleet to be integrated with EF and WW. One of the requirement I remember was that all of our double night destinations on WW would have to go one night stops. Strange seeing as some are on 4 day trips to MIA and 5 day trips to PEK whilst we do nightstops there.
Different terms and conditions than the CC from a fair few years back? No disagreement there but BA would never agree to an equivalent hourly and flying pay as the pilots have.
A little give and take? I don't remember the exact details but BA did ask for a lot of sacrifices for Mixed Fleet to be integrated with EF and WW. One of the requirement I remember was that all of our double night destinations on WW would have to go one night stops. Strange seeing as some are on 4 day trips to MIA and 5 day trips to PEK whilst we do nightstops there.
Different terms and conditions than the CC from a fair few years back? No disagreement there but BA would never agree to an equivalent hourly and flying pay as the pilots have.
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MissM - the reason some people are doing a 4 day Miami is that it saves BA a pilot. That's a 33% reduction in pilots on that route. Should we go on strike? As for hourly pay and sector pay, can you think of one good reason why BA would oppose a system that kept total variable costs the same but encouraged crew to work harder and saved a fortune on administration costs? I can't. But I can think why a corrupt union would oppose such a system.
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Litebulbs
1. The immediate restoration of staff travel concessions, in full, to the crew from whom they were taken.
I still think that the removal of staff travel has been used as a punishment for taking a lawful industrial action. We can always discuss the issue that everyone was made informed that it would be removed for anyone who went. There are many commuters who rely on it to get to and from work and some of them have suffered a lot. Should it be restored in full? Personally I'm not bothered with staff travel as I almost never use it but I can understand that many want it to be restored without any sanctions.
2. Binding arbitration, through ACAS, of all cabin crew disciplinary cases related to the original dispute.
Everyone who has been suspended and/ or dismissed should be able to have their case reviewed by a third party. Having said that, I don't think there should be any guarantees about the outcome.
3. The restoration of all earnings docked from crew who were genuinely off sick during strike dates.
If crew, who were genuinely off sick during strike dates, are able to provide valid documentation should be paid back whatever BA has docked from them. The only problem is that company policy doesn't require any documentation for the first 7 days of sickness. In such case I can understand if BA refuse to restore any docked earnings.
4. Full and proper discussion of the trade union facilities agreement at the company with the immediate removal of all threats and sanctions made by the company in relation to this.
The facilities agreement needs to be put back in place.
5. The immediate cessation of actions taken against elected representatives of cabin crew, including; victimization; intimidation and exclusion.
Anyone, whether a regular member of BASSA or Amicus or a representative of either branch, who has been either suspended or dismissed should be allowed to have their case reviewed by a third party.
6. The introduction of mixed fleet on different terms and conditions without agreement with the union.
I'm not expecting BA to close down the fleet but we need to have some sort of control of it because otherwise we are going to lose everything.
7. The discrimination applied to union members in the allocation of part time contracts and transfers in breach of the Ops and Choice framework.
The Ops and Choice framework should be honoured as in the past. Many crew have waited years for part-time and just because you have signed an individual offer with them doesn't mean that you should be able to jump the queue. It affects thousands of cabin crew.
8. The company's continued and specific disregard for necessary union agreement in advance of any application of the disruption agreement.
BA and BASSA should be able to discuss the use of the DA and when it should be activated. I agree that BA shouldn't have to ask for permission just as well that BASSA shouldn't deny it to be activated because they are in a dispute with the company.
9. The continued use of volunteer and/or temporary crew from outside the recognised NSP on both the Eurofleet and Worldwide fleets and their employment on terms and arrangements outside of existing agreements between BA and the union.
Volunteer crew have done nothing but to prolong our dispute. BA must be one of very few airlines in the world to have trained staff to act as cabin crew. Not only to use during disputes but also during other disruptions.
If they want to work, fine, but as long as regular cabin crew are not sat at home on endless blocks of standby or 24H.
10. The company's offer of a separate pay settlement and variations to terms and conditions for those willing to accept non-negotiated changes to their contracts
Not that many have signed the individual offer.
1. The immediate restoration of staff travel concessions, in full, to the crew from whom they were taken.
I still think that the removal of staff travel has been used as a punishment for taking a lawful industrial action. We can always discuss the issue that everyone was made informed that it would be removed for anyone who went. There are many commuters who rely on it to get to and from work and some of them have suffered a lot. Should it be restored in full? Personally I'm not bothered with staff travel as I almost never use it but I can understand that many want it to be restored without any sanctions.
2. Binding arbitration, through ACAS, of all cabin crew disciplinary cases related to the original dispute.
Everyone who has been suspended and/ or dismissed should be able to have their case reviewed by a third party. Having said that, I don't think there should be any guarantees about the outcome.
3. The restoration of all earnings docked from crew who were genuinely off sick during strike dates.
If crew, who were genuinely off sick during strike dates, are able to provide valid documentation should be paid back whatever BA has docked from them. The only problem is that company policy doesn't require any documentation for the first 7 days of sickness. In such case I can understand if BA refuse to restore any docked earnings.
4. Full and proper discussion of the trade union facilities agreement at the company with the immediate removal of all threats and sanctions made by the company in relation to this.
The facilities agreement needs to be put back in place.
5. The immediate cessation of actions taken against elected representatives of cabin crew, including; victimization; intimidation and exclusion.
Anyone, whether a regular member of BASSA or Amicus or a representative of either branch, who has been either suspended or dismissed should be allowed to have their case reviewed by a third party.
6. The introduction of mixed fleet on different terms and conditions without agreement with the union.
I'm not expecting BA to close down the fleet but we need to have some sort of control of it because otherwise we are going to lose everything.
7. The discrimination applied to union members in the allocation of part time contracts and transfers in breach of the Ops and Choice framework.
The Ops and Choice framework should be honoured as in the past. Many crew have waited years for part-time and just because you have signed an individual offer with them doesn't mean that you should be able to jump the queue. It affects thousands of cabin crew.
8. The company's continued and specific disregard for necessary union agreement in advance of any application of the disruption agreement.
BA and BASSA should be able to discuss the use of the DA and when it should be activated. I agree that BA shouldn't have to ask for permission just as well that BASSA shouldn't deny it to be activated because they are in a dispute with the company.
9. The continued use of volunteer and/or temporary crew from outside the recognised NSP on both the Eurofleet and Worldwide fleets and their employment on terms and arrangements outside of existing agreements between BA and the union.
Volunteer crew have done nothing but to prolong our dispute. BA must be one of very few airlines in the world to have trained staff to act as cabin crew. Not only to use during disputes but also during other disruptions.
If they want to work, fine, but as long as regular cabin crew are not sat at home on endless blocks of standby or 24H.
10. The company's offer of a separate pay settlement and variations to terms and conditions for those willing to accept non-negotiated changes to their contracts
Not that many have signed the individual offer.
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Is it not true that a number of your reps were forced to stand down after being caught fiddling their rosters? The rosterer involved was sacked and now works for Unite. I'd say that was fairly corrupt.
It is interesting that after all these months you still think the the union should have control over Mixed Fleet. The union do not control BA and never will again.
It is interesting that after all these months you still think the the union should have control over Mixed Fleet. The union do not control BA and never will again.
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No disagreement there but BA would never agree to an equivalent hourly and flying pay as the pilots have.
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Miss M
Well, this won't count for much on either thread, but that is a balanced view and I bet BA would sit down and talk around it. But it is getting Bassa/Amicus to the table as we are a lay rep driven union and that bit is down to BA and Unite to agree.
There is some in there, that was offered before, but that doesn't matter now. Bassa will deliver action and that action will cost BA; it will not stop the operation, but it is still a something that it will want to avoid, but not at all costs.
BA has achieved what they wanted; MF is with you. Mr Walsh has moved on and up and the new incumbent will want to settle. The negotiation will be about on how much you can maintain in that settlement, but it is how you get to that negotiation.
There is some in there, that was offered before, but that doesn't matter now. Bassa will deliver action and that action will cost BA; it will not stop the operation, but it is still a something that it will want to avoid, but not at all costs.
BA has achieved what they wanted; MF is with you. Mr Walsh has moved on and up and the new incumbent will want to settle. The negotiation will be about on how much you can maintain in that settlement, but it is how you get to that negotiation.
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edit - I am doing it again and I will not change any view for this post. Apologies to the thread for "tit for tat"
Last edited by Litebulbs; 19th Mar 2011 at 23:11.