BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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When I travelled as a passenger recently I was given the wine list and automatically wanted the wine I had just been told was not available today!
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Ceesnapete and Flaps62.
Just to clarify that all Worldwide crew are all experienced crew apart from some Temp crew but most of them have left or moved to Mixed Fleet. In fact experience as referred to in the JPM is just six months !!! so not really something that requires a Worldwide CSD to manage!! Of course on Mixed Fleet they will need to look at this carefully on each flight.
Just like our pilot community, BA has always been seniority led as are many airlines. In fact I would say, that many would say, that the seniority driven factor is actually more of a problem in the pilot community than in our own! Depending of course if you are at the top or the bottom of the list!!!It is usually a problem when you are at the bottom but by the time you reach the middle!! You don't want the system to change !!
I can see however that it will need to change in our community but for other reasons than mentioned by other posters. As both WW and E/F are shrinking fleets and will have no new entrants joining in the future, the same crew will now remain at the bottom of the list forever!! This will mean that some crew will be condemned to get last choice forever and of course that would be unfair!!
These are all my own views
Just to clarify that all Worldwide crew are all experienced crew apart from some Temp crew but most of them have left or moved to Mixed Fleet. In fact experience as referred to in the JPM is just six months !!! so not really something that requires a Worldwide CSD to manage!! Of course on Mixed Fleet they will need to look at this carefully on each flight.
Just like our pilot community, BA has always been seniority led as are many airlines. In fact I would say, that many would say, that the seniority driven factor is actually more of a problem in the pilot community than in our own! Depending of course if you are at the top or the bottom of the list!!!It is usually a problem when you are at the bottom but by the time you reach the middle!! You don't want the system to change !!
I can see however that it will need to change in our community but for other reasons than mentioned by other posters. As both WW and E/F are shrinking fleets and will have no new entrants joining in the future, the same crew will now remain at the bottom of the list forever!! This will mean that some crew will be condemned to get last choice forever and of course that would be unfair!!
These are all my own views
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Cessnapete
Its not quite as simple as that - wished it was. When seniority was brought in to bid for cabin positions in the 80's, it was the right decsion at the time. As time has passed, its become a milestone around Cabin services necks. Remember, this was agreed between both BA and the unions 'at the time'. The irony is that now, seniority only works for 10-15% of crew max. They get what they want 90% of the time, but for the others ? The 10-20% at the bottom get pushed into what the rest dont want at the time eg. product/crewing level changes, pax loads on the day etc. Inevitably where you need the experience, most times you finish up with the inexperience
So both the crew in that cabin and more importantly the customers lose out. Brillient isn't it. As I said, on certain occasions I've swapped crew around but on a normal day, no way. Oh yes I've got balls, but CSD on longhaul I found to be the loneliest job in BA, so I'm not going to cut my own nose off thanks. I personally think seniority should go, as it gives us a hierachal system that benefits just a small minority. Hopefully its something BA will look into soon
So both the crew in that cabin and more importantly the customers lose out. Brillient isn't it. As I said, on certain occasions I've swapped crew around but on a normal day, no way. Oh yes I've got balls, but CSD on longhaul I found to be the loneliest job in BA, so I'm not going to cut my own nose off thanks. I personally think seniority should go, as it gives us a hierachal system that benefits just a small minority. Hopefully its something BA will look into soon
Juan and Bettygirl
The good book says
How does seniority picking positions sit with the word "allocate"?
The good book says
The SCCM must ensure that, when allocating crew positions at briefing,
operational experience is taken into account and spread between the
front and rear of the aircraft for take-off and landing
operational experience is taken into account and spread between the
front and rear of the aircraft for take-off and landing
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Flap62
On the day, that certainly happens, eg if you have new crew, VCC's etc. On longhaul, all crew have flown at least 5-7 years min at the moment. So its difficult 'to work out' who is experienced and who isn't in what cabin
On the day, that certainly happens, eg if you have new crew, VCC's etc. On longhaul, all crew have flown at least 5-7 years min at the moment. So its difficult 'to work out' who is experienced and who isn't in what cabin
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Flaps 62,
Exactly what you say. In BA's and the CAA's view operational experience is, it has recently been reduced from one year, just 6 months. You could have a whole crew apart from the senior crew member with just 6 months experience each and they would be considered capable of operating in any position. When someone has less than 6 months experience, you have to make sure they are working with someone who has more than six months experience. Obviously this is done and there is a limit to how many crew can be on board with this lower experience. ie on an airbus only one crew member with under 6 months experience can be in charge of a door and part of the core crew on that aircraft but on bigger aircraft the number goes up. This is why initially all the new Mixed Fleet crew had to have had previous airline experience and it is only now that they have got their numbers up that they have can take on completely new, new entrants.
On worldwide it would only be when a new person was on board or a volunteer that the CSD would need to do this. On Mixed Fleet this will be very critical in the next few months as many brand new crew are just about to come on line and the CSMs will need to look very carefully at the spread of crew across the various doors.
The CSDs and CSMs are putting these crews in these various positions not to aid the cabin service but to have a legal spread of crews across the door areas. That is what the JPM is referring to and not who does or does not work in Club, First or World traveller!!!
Obviously on Worldwide everyone will have miles more experience than just six months and on any occasion this is not the case, the CSD would be looking at it and repositioning anyone to another position if needed. Crew with this lower level of under six months are marked on the briefing sheet accordingly so, so that the CSD is aware that he/she needs to monitor this and it will be exactly the same on the M/F briefing sheets although it will need a lot of thought from the CSMs as they will be dealing with many more new crew on their flights.
Exactly what you say. In BA's and the CAA's view operational experience is, it has recently been reduced from one year, just 6 months. You could have a whole crew apart from the senior crew member with just 6 months experience each and they would be considered capable of operating in any position. When someone has less than 6 months experience, you have to make sure they are working with someone who has more than six months experience. Obviously this is done and there is a limit to how many crew can be on board with this lower experience. ie on an airbus only one crew member with under 6 months experience can be in charge of a door and part of the core crew on that aircraft but on bigger aircraft the number goes up. This is why initially all the new Mixed Fleet crew had to have had previous airline experience and it is only now that they have got their numbers up that they have can take on completely new, new entrants.
On worldwide it would only be when a new person was on board or a volunteer that the CSD would need to do this. On Mixed Fleet this will be very critical in the next few months as many brand new crew are just about to come on line and the CSMs will need to look very carefully at the spread of crew across the various doors.
The CSDs and CSMs are putting these crews in these various positions not to aid the cabin service but to have a legal spread of crews across the door areas. That is what the JPM is referring to and not who does or does not work in Club, First or World traveller!!!
Obviously on Worldwide everyone will have miles more experience than just six months and on any occasion this is not the case, the CSD would be looking at it and repositioning anyone to another position if needed. Crew with this lower level of under six months are marked on the briefing sheet accordingly so, so that the CSD is aware that he/she needs to monitor this and it will be exactly the same on the M/F briefing sheets although it will need a lot of thought from the CSMs as they will be dealing with many more new crew on their flights.
MF Crew
Just for info I have recently completed a pax trip Lhr/Den/Lhr, first experience of MF route.
On way out service a bit slow due inexperience etc, but very smart appearanced crew, and extremly friendly. Only experienced travelers would notice the difference.
On Den/Lhr could not tell the difference between MF and 'old WW'. Efficient and friendly, and again very smart appearance.
Both flights near full.(A VCC on return sector probably helped the service given though)
An ex. Ezy lady we chatted to said the money not great at the moment but lifestyle/routes/aicraft types in BA beat the hell out of 4/5 sectors a day around Europe in her previous life, and friends of hers queing up to join!!
All were looking forward to extra routes opening up due to their upcoming B744 qualification.
On way out service a bit slow due inexperience etc, but very smart appearanced crew, and extremly friendly. Only experienced travelers would notice the difference.
On Den/Lhr could not tell the difference between MF and 'old WW'. Efficient and friendly, and again very smart appearance.
Both flights near full.(A VCC on return sector probably helped the service given though)
An ex. Ezy lady we chatted to said the money not great at the moment but lifestyle/routes/aicraft types in BA beat the hell out of 4/5 sectors a day around Europe in her previous life, and friends of hers queing up to join!!
All were looking forward to extra routes opening up due to their upcoming B744 qualification.
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Interesting info Pete. Good to get it straight from the horses mouth
Yes The ex Ezy girl is what I think is typical and BA know it. Its the 'Bassa' lot that we cannot convince
Yes The ex Ezy girl is what I think is typical and BA know it. Its the 'Bassa' lot that we cannot convince
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Meanwhile back at the asylum.......
... apparently BASSAs latest edict is having a pop at BA Asset Protection for not apprehending Rajib Karim. It would seem counter-terrorism is now within their scope of operations and they should have picked him up as he was only working a few offices down from them. Perhaps BASSA believe that Waterside stretches all the way from Harmondsworth to Newcastle?
Mind you, their geography was never that good. Remember when they said BA should operate a shuttle to Mexico City from Barbados?
Mind you, their geography was never that good. Remember when they said BA should operate a shuttle to Mexico City from Barbados?
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New Fleet
Having read much about New Fleet, I thought it worth a comment. I have just flown as passenger in Club World to Denver. I was impressed by the bright smiling faces and very smart uniform standards. Throughout the service was impecable. Only one crew member had former BA service experience, the remainder from airlines such as Aer Lingus and Easyjet. I am not saying ww would not have been as good but it could not have been better. Maybe BA are doing some things right.
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MF Experience
Flew back from LAS a few days ago. It was a pleasure to see the female cc walk through the terminal wearing their hats, very elegant. The onboard experience was also very encouraging. The pax in CW must have been very impressed with the service levels they received. I certainly was. A key component of course is reward based performance. My wife had a conversation with the CSM, he was acutely aware of the need to deliver consistently high levels of service. I just hope that the GPM etc... accurately reflects their efforts and in turn the reward based payments. They certainly deserved recognition on this flight from my observations.
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It is much easier to look smart in a new uniform.
A regular problem for 'us legacy' lot is trying to replace our old worn out uniform. A friend was recently told he had a three month plus wait for a new waistcoat. Yellow shirts are a norm.
This is because of a world wide cotton shortage - a result of catastrophic weather occurances. Thats the official line, or it could be that uniform preference is going to new fleet and the odd VCC. My manager somehow managed to kit herself out in a shiny new uniform and is at least sympathetic to my comments about managing uniform standards.
The management have made no secret of describing mixed fleet as elite crew. A cynic would suggest that leaving legacy crew to wither in aging uniforms only subconciously promotes the new fleet = elite fleet dogma.
A regular problem for 'us legacy' lot is trying to replace our old worn out uniform. A friend was recently told he had a three month plus wait for a new waistcoat. Yellow shirts are a norm.
This is because of a world wide cotton shortage - a result of catastrophic weather occurances. Thats the official line, or it could be that uniform preference is going to new fleet and the odd VCC. My manager somehow managed to kit herself out in a shiny new uniform and is at least sympathetic to my comments about managing uniform standards.
The management have made no secret of describing mixed fleet as elite crew. A cynic would suggest that leaving legacy crew to wither in aging uniforms only subconciously promotes the new fleet = elite fleet dogma.
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Trublu123
Were you one of the passengers who must have been impressed with the CW service, or it that merely a suggestion?
Were you one of the passengers who must have been impressed with the CW service, or it that merely a suggestion?
Last edited by PC767; 4th Mar 2011 at 15:43.
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Uniform Standards
As a CSD I have experienced the same problem with trying to get new shirts. I have been to uniform stores three times over four months to get new shirts and none are available! It is extremely frustrating especially for those of us who try to maintain high levels of customer service on all flights!
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In an effort to get back on thread,
Can any BASSA supporter say what it will take to end this dispute?
It would help if abuse, emotion, supposition and vitriol were avoided.
Can any BASSA supporter say what it will take to end this dispute?
It would help if abuse, emotion, supposition and vitriol were avoided.
Bengerman,
Oh, pay attention at the back!!
it is simple. BA need to join Doctor Who, Back to the Future, Time Bandits and others and rewind the clock back to about 2007 when bassa could click its fingers, say "Jump" and BA would ask how high they should jump.
Time to go back to JB.
Oh, pay attention at the back!!
it is simple. BA need to join Doctor Who, Back to the Future, Time Bandits and others and rewind the clock back to about 2007 when bassa could click its fingers, say "Jump" and BA would ask how high they should jump.
Time to go back to JB.
