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BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

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BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

Old 22nd Jan 2011, 08:14
  #2521 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tunbridge Wells
Posts: 148
Eddy, sure you dont mean to but your posts seem to be indicative of the mind-set of some crew who think they are so special you've almost elevated us to cartoon super-heroes! I'm sure you don't mean them to come across like that, but were I any other employee reading them, I'd be pretty miffed, to tell the truth. Rather shows a lack of awareness for what all other departments actually do.

Yes, what we do is special and our medical training is good but my point is, we're all dependent upon one another within the company - everyone is expert in their own field and is deserving of the utmost respect.
Let's leave the egos behind, stop the tit-for-tatting and concentrate on what lies ahead, eh?
From Tunbridge Wells is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 08:25
  #2522 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 23
Just a word of warning to all those who have voted yes. During my working life I have listened to the union twice and lost my job twice (along with several thousand others) and your new leader Len was in charge both times. He is now at the top of his career and I am still living in a 3 bed semi, a few of my colleagues actually committed suicide as their lives fell apart thru losing their jobs! Just please beware of listening to someone who has nothing to lose by their actions it could cost you very dearly. Good luck all, an EX docker.
Wefeedumall is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 08:27
  #2523 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: england
Posts: 272
Eddy... there are many realtime events in Engineering during which there are many opportunities to **** up royally! Starting/operating engines, taxi-ing a/c, operating powered flying controls, working at height, replacing slide rafts, replacement of high voltage equipment etc....
yotty is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 08:52
  #2524 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Location
Posts: 3
Unite have been talking more about a work to rule or 'guerilla action'. Not to sure what is meant by the latter term, but it sounds like the branch executive playing fast and loose with the member's interests to me. If the union call a strike but all turn up for work, what does that do for them ? Apart from make them all look like a bunch of charlies. If there is a code word that will be passed around the union membership that signifies 'turn up for work' , what happens when the line of communication breaks down and some members don't get it and fail to report for work ?
Work to rule or 'guerilla action'? If they call a strike, could they make their members turn up, but then let them "change their minds" after they have checked in for work? It would initially cause havoc, but then again, as such tactics will be revealed to "No" voters, they would find their way through friends and colleagues to BA management. No big surprise then.

I don't think it would be legal to deploy "Chaos" Alaskan style strikes in the UK. Also, handing out flyers to pax about "evil management and hard working conditions" would not create a big stir nowadays. Budget airlines and global recession have changed the perspective of the average pax.
Queen_Of_No is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 09:06
  #2525 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: london
Posts: 26
What most of you on this forum fail to comprehend is that the 78.5% of us who are supporting our union, realise only to well, that this whole dispute is about union busting. Bill's promises are empty without a union, We are all only 90 days
away from being on the new contract ourselves. You only have to look at recent events at Aer Lingus to see how the company can impose changes at will. Without a union, you have no legal voice, and you have to fight with no protection. It's good to see their Pilots are supporting them!! Wake up people, if you still can't see the bigger picture, god help you.
mohitomaster is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 09:09
  #2526 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 420
I will never suport a "guirella action". We are already working to our agreements and such action wouldnt make too much dispruption.
MissM is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 09:12
  #2527 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: uk
Posts: 19
Blue ribbond

You said :"So, if you want to destroy our livelihoods, then we have to fight back"

What makes you think this industrial dispute has anything to do with destroying your livelihood?
And does your "crusade" to save your livelihood give you the right to wilfully undermine another group of colleagues' legitimate right to take industrial action?

It seems to me that there is a pungent "dog eat dog" culture in this airline, and that the boss has been very successful in pitting each group of employees against cabin crew.
Though I thought this type of methods belonged to a more obscure part of history .It is all well and good in the UK.
Mildly Militant is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 09:24
  #2528 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,235
Mohitomaster,

The Union strapline of 'Union Busting' has grown so stale it is well past needing to be put deep down in the bin. The Union (Unite/BASSA et al) have had no constructive, reasoned or valid argument against the requirement for the IFcE department to implement cost savings measures with the rest of the company. They have been unable to force/cajoule/bully their unwillingness to change through with IA threats and action and are left still in the water.

As BASSA were patently incapable of negotiating in a rasonable manner in the first place, as they lost grip of the power they had through vague IA threats, they had to come up with a new threat. Union Busting.

If BA wanted to 'bust' the Union they could have done quite easily and legally over the past two years after failed legal action by Unite and highly questionable actions of the BASSA board in giving advice to mmbers (former and not) and posting confidential personal information, or implenetation of various employment laws stating that the action would cause detrimental losses to the company. Given the past economic situation I don't think any employment tribunal would have disagreed.

BA would be quite happy to work with a rational, forward thinking and pro active BASSA. Sadly such an entity doesn't exist. Unite calls for negotion but seem to forget the BASSA shouted mandate of 'no negotiation'. It's still available on You Tube.

All work groups require some form of Union representation in a company as big as BA. However the time where the Union hold the power to dictated company policy is behind us. BASSA have always based negotiations upon the premise that IA will cause the company to fail and the IFcE management to give in to their demands. No longer. It will be interesting to see if the PCCC garners enough support to be recognised and perhaps we will then see a period of Union representation that represents the entire CC workforce not just those at the top.

'Work to rule'? I'm fairly certain the others of us in BA wouldn't notice the difference. Laminated Card anyone?

Edit: For Mildly Militant:

This stems from the initial messages from BASSA that, if the implementation goes through the company wouldn't be worth working for thus it would be better to 'bring it down'

No 'dog eat dog' just a frustrated sense that BASSA have had BA by the balls for too long and, IFcE, as a department have failed to change with the times for too long and been supported by the rest of the employee groups for too long. Hence the 'willingness' of the VCC community. If BASSA have a 'valid' argument then the willingness wouldn't be there.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 09:48
  #2529 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: uk
Posts: 19
"No 'dog eat dog' just a frustrated sense that BASSA have had BA by the balls for too long and, IFcE, as a department have failed to change with the times for too long and been supported by the rest of the employee groups for too long. Hence the 'willingness' of the VCC community. If BASSA have a 'valid' argument then the willingness wouldn't be there."

One would think that it is up to the people affected by the required savings to decide whether there is a legitimate argument for industrial action.
Furthermore,as I've said before over the past 13 years Bassa have made significant concessions.In real value over the past 14 years, CC salary have significantly decreased and conditions have eroded.This has given the company a significant advantage against their European competitors.
IB,AF,UA,CO c/c earn more and often work less than BA crew. Yet we are constantly compared with EZ jet (same earnings as BA post 97 crew) Ryan air, VS and the middle eastern airlines.Personally I think Unite has a very valid argument, and really struggle to comprehend why colleagues from other department would want to get involved.
I wonder if the loaders called for industrial action, would you feel as comfortable getting involved in a dispute that is not yours?
Mildly Militant is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 09:49
  #2530 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 942
Angel

Please please please can we draw a line under what Eddy said last night.

I don't agree with what he said and I don't see anyone else agreeing with him either, so please lets all just discuss what this thread is supposed to be about.

Everyone's job is important for one reason or another. We need ALL our staff to be doing their jobs well to make our airline great.

Miss M.
I don't myself understand why you feel BA are wanting to get rid of you, as you put it.

The agreement guarantees that you will remain on your current terms and conditions unless otherwise negotiated, so I just don't understand why you say that.

This is what Bill said only on 20th January 2011, day before yesterday, Thursday afternoon on his webchat. It could not be more clear.

These are some quotes :-


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
''I have no plans, intentions or otherwise to "starve crew of work " or force anyone to join Mixed Fleet. Couldn't be clearer.''

''Mixed Fleet crew will represent 42% of all crew in 10 years time, not 4 as you suggest.''

''I'm glad you like the initiative of showing all Mixed Fleet routes on the manpower thread on this forum. We wanted to give transparency as promised, and to ensure colleagues were bidding for the right trips for their fleets.
I too read many of the rumours which once again proved to be without any foundation re high earning routes.
When we spoke about routes with Unite, we were all very clear that during the start up phase of Mixed Fleet (probably the first 18 months) it would be difficult to give much advance notice of routes moving. However, in steady state we have committed in the offer to discuss with Unite which routes will move on a seasonal basis. This would then allow us to publish them as you suggest.''


''Routes attract various allowances including meal, box, back to back and destination as an example. As long as a balance of high, medium and low earning routes are maintained in proportion to the number of existing crew in existing fleets, then the ability of crew to earn their variable pay remains too.
As an underpin to this arrangement, we have introduced the Top Up Scheme which will guarantee that your variable pay cannot be lower than that earned on average in 2009/10 (as detailed in the collective and individual offers)''


''I've always said I can see routes moving between fleets on a regular basis and I've also said that new routes will go to both existing and mixed fleets dependant on customer and business need. You're seeing a good example of this with Buenos Aires going to Worldwide Fleet and Haneda going to Mixed. I also expect Mixed Fleet to grow slowly to represent only 42% of all crew in 10 years time.''

''So new aircraft and new routes will continue to be distributed fairly and transparently all fleets based on commercial need.''

''I want to be really clear, that contrary to what you may have heard from other sources, we have NOT terminated the redeployment agreement.
We have talked in the past to all Trade Unions across BA about working towards a modern approach to an agreement that is almost 40 years old, while continuing to try to avoid compulsory redundancies.
In IFCE we have adopted an entirely voluntary approach to any leavers through increasing part time offers and voluntary redundancy. This remains our approach.
There are currently no talks underway re updating the redeployment agreement.''


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

How can you read all of that and still think he is going to get rid of you or force you onto Mixed Fleet. That is of course if you actually bothered to read his webchat on the ESS Forum.
Betty girl is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 09:52
  #2531 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oxford
Posts: 45
Dog eat dog

The "Dog eat dog" environment was created by bassa with their hate campaign against pilots. The long list of lies has created the atmosphere between us and acted as a carrion call for the VCC program.

IFCE like the rest of BA were given a savings target based on the cost savings BA had to agree to in order to borrow enough cash not to go bust.

All other departments achieved this. BA cannot back down as all other departments would want their money back & the banks would therefore want theirs. This is a fight bassa cannot win, the best outcome is to minimise the loss.

The continued inability of bassa to grasp reality does turn other employess against strikers. We need our jobs, strikers seem to think they are untouchable.
Each period of industrial action will inevitably lead to a worse situation for bassa members. Your call.
Strimmerdriver is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 10:02
  #2532 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: uk
Posts: 19
Strimmerdriver

I disagree with you I do not recall receiving any comms from Bassa regarding Pilots BEFORE the volunteering campaign started.
I think many crew have distanced themselves from pilots as a direct consequence of knowing that :
1-some were absolutely happy to undermine their legitimate right to take industrial action
2-that if they expressed their disapproval they would be likely to be disciplined .

Lastly Aer Lingus pilots (ialpa) have collected 100 000€ to support their suspended cabin crew colleague who have been suspended for working to rule.

What does that tell you?
Mildly Militant is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 10:16
  #2533 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,235
One would think that it is up to the people affected by the required savings to decide whether there is a legitimate argument for industrial action.
Furthermore,as I've said before over the past 13 years Bassa have made significant concessions.In real value over the past 14 years, CC salary have significantly decreased and conditions have eroded.This has given the company a significant advantage against their European competitors.
IB,AF,UA,CO c/c earn more and often work less than BA crew. Yet we are constantly compared with EZ jet (same earnings as BA post 97 crew) Ryan air, VS and the middle eastern airlines.Personally I think Unite has a very valid argument, and really struggle to comprehend why colleagues from other department would want to get involved.
I wonder if the loaders called for industrial action, would you feel as comfortable getting involved in a dispute that is not yours?
Who do you think other departments get 'compared' to? In 'real' terms the value of CC hasn't changed as much as many in BASSA would believe it. The savings per department, if you wish to go back and have a look, were calculated on what the company felt the departmental overheads were. Oddly enough IFcE came out with a large overhead calculated by the fact that, in real terms, verses competitiors the average wage bill was too high. Why, when other departments had rationalised block payments into an hourly rate, couldn't the CC do the same? Oh, hang on, it would mean that those at the top, the same who sit on the BASSA board, those who can 'pick and choose' destination would lose a bit and those who had just joined would benefit.

IB,AF,UA,CO earn more and do less? Do you, per chance, have figures to back up that statement? I just wonder as I have former colleagues of mine flying for some of those companies and I can assure you that the working conditions, renumeration and hours are not as good as those you enjoy. If BASSA are so confident that BA are 'shafting' their workforce why don't BASSA emplore BA to benchmark CC T's& C's against those carriers? I think you would be in for a shock, especially against AF, UA and CO etc who have dastically changed since mergers, Governmental underpinning required change.

There has been no undermining your legal right to take IA. Where has this happened? Supporting the company against ill advised and idiotic strike action in order to protect my future employment? Yep. Just because I don't agree with what BASSA are doing doesn't mean that we have to accept the lunacy of the BASSA IA. I'm not in BASSA, not associated to BASSA nor affiliated to BASSA. Thus, if the company asks me if I wish to volunteers to keep our passengers flying during a lunatic Union driven, ill thought out, un necessary strike thus potentially protecting my job into the future then it is my business, becomes my business and has everything to do with me.

Lastly Aer Lingus pilots (ialpa) have collected 100 000€ to support their suspended cabin crew colleague who have been suspended for working to rule.
They have a totally different situation perhaps?

Had BASSA a valid argument, one that was comprehensible to all, one that didn't change every time Heathrow changed runway then I would support the validity of IA. They don't, I don't.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 10:22
  #2534 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,235
1-some were absolutely happy to undermine their legitimate right to take industrial action
Never happened. Irrespective of who volunteered to do what your fundamental right to take IA has never, ever been affected by the actions of others. The 'impact' of that IA, maybe, the right to sip pimms and slag everybody off from the roof of an open topped bus? Never. (again, the video is still to be found on You Tube. Isn't the internet a wonderful thing.)

2-that if they expressed their disapproval they would be likely to be disciplined .
You are perfectly entitled to disagree. I've had adult, interesting and grown up conversations with those who went on strike. But after the aircraft has landed and we have all completed a professional service to our passengers to the best of our ability. Skulking around complaing or being surly whilst onboard or 'blanking' other members of the crew for their preferences is not acceptable. That behaviour on board would get a mention. What you do, talk about and discuss outside of the company time, as long as it is sensible, is up to you. Naturally with the caveat of not bringing the company into disrepute.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 10:23
  #2535 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK (and now rarely behind enemy lines but still enjoying foreign climes.)
Posts: 1,349
What most of you on this forum fail to comprehend is that the 78.5% of us who are supporting our union ...
mohitomaster,
Perhaps what you fail to realise is that your union can't even do basic mathematics!
Unite balloted 10,220 cabin crew. They voted as follows on the question “are you prepared to take part in strike action”:
* Number of ballot papers returned = 7,335
* Number of ballot papers found to be invalid = 5
* Total number of papers counted = 7,330
* Number voting YES = 5,751 (78.5% of valid vote)
* Number voting NO = 1,579 (21.5%)
So, I think you'll find that 7330 is 71.7% of 10220, not 78.5%! And 5751 is less than half of all BA cabin crew! Claiming to support your union rings very hollow when it is certain that 5751 of you won't actually be bold enough to actually go on strike.

What makes you think this industrial dispute has anything to do with destroying your livelihood?
Mildly Militant,
Anyone posing that question has obviously given no thought to the problem. No thought, whatsoever! Have a think (hard work I know ...) about how BASSA's juvenile crusade wilfully undermines the financial viability of the entire company, consequently threatening everybody else's livelihoods.

It seems to me that there is a pungent "dog eat dog" culture in this airline, and that the boss has been very successful in pitting each group of employees against cabin crew.
Though I thought this type of methods belonged to a more obscure part of history.
The boss has little to do with it - BASSA and Unite have done all their own groundwork in annoying all the other work groups in BA. Other members of Unite, who are not cabin crew, have had enough of paying 'extra' to support those who wilfully (if not thoughtfully ) lost themselves income in an action that was so obviously doomed before it even began.

You'll find that all those other work groups think that it is BASSA's "methods" that should be consigned to "history".
MrBernoulli is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 10:25
  #2536 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 859
BASSA has tried to demonise pilots over the VCC issue, and indeed have a history of demeaning and belittling pilots.

BASSA has acted in such a fashion that a highly educated and unionised workforce have been so incensed by the irrational acts of BASSA that they have decided that they would rather help to try to break a strike than to support it. This is true of many workers within BA who are in many cases members of UNITE. The selfish and stupid attitudes witnessed - I'd rather see the company we all work for go bust rather than give an inch - have lead to a situation where union members of the same union would take active measures to break the strike. This is not just about pilot VCCs, indeed the pilot VCCs are significantly outnumbered by VCCs from other areas of the business.

Public and indeed workmate sympathies have been lost, and lost to such an extent that they have transformed into active anti-strike actions. The strikes are not only unjustified but that the issue has been so badly handled it has turned other workers against the strike. That is what this tells us, not that the poor CC have been in some way victimised, rather BASSA has made them into an unloved and marginalised minority.

This is a huge shame as the CC are hard working and dedicated and have played a large part in helping to make BA what it is today. BASSA on the other hand seems to represent everything that is backward thinking and wrong within BA.
Juan Tugoh is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 10:35
  #2537 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: uk
Posts: 19
Mr Bernoulli

You wrote :"Have a think (hard work I know ...)"

With that sort of approach to industrial relations, no wonder we don't seem to be getting anywhere...

Of course I have considered BA's financial situation, clearly my assessment was correct as we made our first profit (158M) in two years despite the strikes and volcano.So when exactly was your livelihood put at risk?

In other words the "fight for survival" was hyped in order to obtain significant concessions from staff, including asking staff to work for free....
Mildly Militant is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 10:44
  #2538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 942
Angel

Mildly Militant,

The reason we made that money was because of the cost savings in ALL departments and including OURS.

We saved £127 million and are on target with the introduction of Mixed Fleet to continue to make £65 million more each subsequent year.

These savings were unfortunately imposed on us. I personally would have much rather had a union that had worked with BA to achieve them instead of causing my community to be thought of the way we are now and actually causing BA to lose money unnecessarily through a strike that has gained us nothing but heartache.
Betty girl is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 10:58
  #2539 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,235
Of course I have considered BA's financial situation, clearly my assessment was correct as we made our first profit (158M) in two years despite the strikes and volcano.So when exactly was your livelihood put at risk?
Ahh, the twenty/twenty hindsight priciple.

I'm glad your assesment (after the event) was correct. Such a shame, at the time, that the city investors (oddly enough required in the airline world) didn't have your expertise when deciding whether or not to invest in BA as a company with its emergency business plan.

As Betty Girl has stated the imposed IFcE cuts have been part of the plan. Also many other departments wouldn't sign off permanent changes until ALL departments fell into line.

But thats all niff-naff and trivia. BASSA forecast everything would be ok and they didn't need to make any permanent savings. Whilst all the other departments, including may belonging to Unite, were negotiating their savings BASSA claimed they didn't and still don't need to change.

And still you wonder why other departments don't support BASSA's actions.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 11:00
  #2540 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: LAM/BIG/BNN hold
Posts: 153
Originally Posted by Juan Tugoh View Post
BASSA has tried to demonise pilots over the VCC issue, and indeed have a history of demeaning and belittling pilots.

BASSA on the other hand seems to represent everything that is backward thinking and wrong within BA.
I think VCC's have been drawn in as there is now light at the end of the tunnel to change cabin crews archaic working conditions as well. This strike has been the 'last straw' and allowed the company to move into the 21st century - for example :-

Why are there no fixed links(many routes could do this), why are certain working days and associated minimum rest down route shorter for CC than pilots, why do BASSA keep blocking BA from doing their own service requirement (WT+ new product, hot towels etc), being flexible (eg if someone goes sick downroute), turfing inbound Club passengers off shorthaul Club seats as the PAX number triggers another crew member, rigid performance management to keep CC standards up

I am sure the list could go on and on - these are the things that need to change.

I think if BASSA was a good union, it would have evolved and helped to make BA great again - as BA has many really good crew - it is not though and membership should have their eyes full open to that and what could possible happen to them next, is the risk worth the reward ?
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