BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Yes, but there is still disruption as BA have to make the contingencies.
But, if no-one actually strikes - there is no question of 90 notice, or sackings or legal comeback.
Call a strike - but only the would-be strikers KNOW that it isn't.
It's not illegal to turn-up for work when a strike is called.
Happened quite a lot during the last rounds I recall. Ironic eh?
But, if no-one actually strikes - there is no question of 90 notice, or sackings or legal comeback.
Call a strike - but only the would-be strikers KNOW that it isn't.
It's not illegal to turn-up for work when a strike is called.
Happened quite a lot during the last rounds I recall. Ironic eh?
Junior trash
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But, if no-one actually strikes - there is no question of 90 notice, or sackings or legal comeback.
Secondly if no industrial action has actually been taken (not just called, taken) within 28 days the ballot is rendered invalid. So it doesnt get rid of the sacking/legal problem either.
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Well apparently they only have to persuade a judge that there is no prospect of the union ever coming to agreement to be able to use 90 days, I was informed by a poster the other day.
So they could still do that but I hope not, they really are idiots because if some of the get the sack or leave because they don't want to sign the contract if they use 90 says, they just make Mixed Fleet bigger, faster.
So they could still do that but I hope not, they really are idiots because if some of the get the sack or leave because they don't want to sign the contract if they use 90 says, they just make Mixed Fleet bigger, faster.
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support falling away
Unite claim 7000 crew went on strike during the earlier dispute.
Now only 5751 are interested in Industrial Action.
That makes a fall of 18% before any strike even begins. It shows the dangers of talking up your strike numbers, but forward thinking is not a skill BASSA/UNITE have much of
This dispute is rapidly drifting away from Unite/BASSA
ABAC
Now only 5751 are interested in Industrial Action.
That makes a fall of 18% before any strike even begins. It shows the dangers of talking up your strike numbers, but forward thinking is not a skill BASSA/UNITE have much of
This dispute is rapidly drifting away from Unite/BASSA
ABAC
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Actually the SOSR 90 day thing is even simpler than persuading the judge that there is no chance of achieving a settlement. All that BA have to do is persuade the judge that they believe there is no chance of achieving a settlement. This is the legal test - there has to be a genuinely held belief, not that that belief is valid.
That said I remain unconvinced BA would do this, I think they will just ignore the strike and take sanctions like ST removal. The last strike was ineffectual and the tactics that worked last time are likely to be used again.
That said I remain unconvinced BA would do this, I think they will just ignore the strike and take sanctions like ST removal. The last strike was ineffectual and the tactics that worked last time are likely to be used again.
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Message from Willie Walsh
Unite has informed us that the cabin crew ballot has resulted in a vote in favour of strike action among the union's crew members.
However, it is clear from the result that Unite does not have the support of the majority of our cabin crew. Of our 13,500 crew, only 43 per cent voted in favour of strike action in this ballot.
Unite has lost about 2,500 cabin crew members since this dispute started, as crew have voted with their feet. Even with a smaller membership, the proportion of Unite members supporting disruption continues to fall, contrary to the union's claims.
We urge Unite to return to the deal we negotiated, which guarantees pay rises for the next two years and secures terms and conditions for our existing crew that are the best in the UK industry.
Tony Woodley shook hands on this deal in October. Unite said it would recommend it to members, but then reneged on its promise. This U-turn reflected the union’s deep-seated internal divisions, especially its dysfunctional relationship with its crew branch, BASSA.
It is time for Unite to listen to the majority of crew and to its members in other parts of the airline, who want an end to this dispute.
Unite has not announced whether, or when, it plans to take industrial action. However, here is how you can help.
Volunteering
Due to the tremendous support and effort you showed during the previous strikes, we were able to keep our flag flying and support our customers and our cabin crew colleagues who came to work.
The response we received across the airline was fantastic, with every department volunteering to Back BA in the air and on the ground.
Backing BA – in the air
We have launched the chance for more colleagues to train and work alongside cabin crew. You will need permission from your line manager before applying via the homepage of the intranet.
Customer Support Programme
We would also need volunteers for a number of other key roles to support our customers and colleagues on the ground. Last time, the response was overwhelming with over 8,500 shifts covered during the period of disruption.
When we know the details of any strike action, there will be a wealth of information on the intranet to help you choose which role would be right for you, and again, you should speak with your manager before you volunteer.
In the meantime, volunteers are advised to make sure their details are up to date in the CSP booking tool.
My role
As you know, Keith Williams takes over as BA chief executive at midnight tonight and I will be moving to head up International Airlines Group (IAG).
Talks with Unite on cabin crew issues have been taking place for almost two years and during that time I have assisted our industrial relations team. I will continue to be available.
Thank you for your support.
However, it is clear from the result that Unite does not have the support of the majority of our cabin crew. Of our 13,500 crew, only 43 per cent voted in favour of strike action in this ballot.
Unite has lost about 2,500 cabin crew members since this dispute started, as crew have voted with their feet. Even with a smaller membership, the proportion of Unite members supporting disruption continues to fall, contrary to the union's claims.
We urge Unite to return to the deal we negotiated, which guarantees pay rises for the next two years and secures terms and conditions for our existing crew that are the best in the UK industry.
Tony Woodley shook hands on this deal in October. Unite said it would recommend it to members, but then reneged on its promise. This U-turn reflected the union’s deep-seated internal divisions, especially its dysfunctional relationship with its crew branch, BASSA.
It is time for Unite to listen to the majority of crew and to its members in other parts of the airline, who want an end to this dispute.
Unite has not announced whether, or when, it plans to take industrial action. However, here is how you can help.
Volunteering
Due to the tremendous support and effort you showed during the previous strikes, we were able to keep our flag flying and support our customers and our cabin crew colleagues who came to work.
The response we received across the airline was fantastic, with every department volunteering to Back BA in the air and on the ground.
Backing BA – in the air
We have launched the chance for more colleagues to train and work alongside cabin crew. You will need permission from your line manager before applying via the homepage of the intranet.
Customer Support Programme
We would also need volunteers for a number of other key roles to support our customers and colleagues on the ground. Last time, the response was overwhelming with over 8,500 shifts covered during the period of disruption.
When we know the details of any strike action, there will be a wealth of information on the intranet to help you choose which role would be right for you, and again, you should speak with your manager before you volunteer.
In the meantime, volunteers are advised to make sure their details are up to date in the CSP booking tool.
My role
As you know, Keith Williams takes over as BA chief executive at midnight tonight and I will be moving to head up International Airlines Group (IAG).
Talks with Unite on cabin crew issues have been taking place for almost two years and during that time I have assisted our industrial relations team. I will continue to be available.
Thank you for your support.
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And here I am, making one of my rare appearances here to comment on today's news.... More strikes on the way, eh? They're bound to happen. There won't be a settlement. I know (of) Keith Williams, our new CEO, very well. He is a regular visitor to my neck of the woods and, although he probably won't remember, I've met him before in my local airport.
Anyone who thinks that Mr. Williams heralds a new era of more relaxed industrial negotiation is in for a world of pain. Mr. Williams is an accountant, through and through. A numbers man. That's not to say he wants to run rough-shod over our T&Cs as much as Mr. Walsh may be considered to have done, but nor is the man going to roll over and give the unions what they unreasonably desire.
As the months have passed I've found myself being more and more sympathetic towards my striking colleagues. Sympathetic, but not to the point of wanting to join them on the picket lines.
These are people who have seen this company return to profitability in what remains one of the most harsh trading periods ever. Yet they remain resilient in their quest to win this battle against BA.
Now, I have to say, I don't see that there's a battle anymore. I think it's been lost. WELL AND TRULY LOST. But it could have been won.
Having moved to Gatwick recently - a move seen by many as "crazy" and "downright f*cking f*cked up", I can see first hand that Gatwick represents what I think the company would view as a very, very happy middle ground between Heathrow as-is and Mixed Fleet.
Gatwick offers a happy, contented, gelled crew who do an incredible job for what is, compared to what I used to earn at Heathrow, a very low salary. I've had my problems at Gatwick (which I had previously been reluctant to discuss, but am now happy to talk about and, more importantly, defend myself against), but in general the people here are astonishingly good. Professional, dedicated, loyal and hard working. They actually put me to shame (on occasion
)
So when I hear that more strikes are coming, and that the main focus of these strikes is the return of staff travel, I have to wonder if those going on strike actually know why they're walking out, and don't just walk out cos that's what seems 'popular' - to those reading various internet forums, atleast.
With a little negotiation, perhaps Heathrow could have gone to the Gatwick Fleet way of doing things, as opposed to going to what I, personally, see as being one step lower and going for Mixed Fleet's T&Cs.
The new package offered seems to have been cast aside. If it weren't for the staff travel issue, it almost seems as though the new package would be perfectly acceptable - atleast as far as the hype on the telly and on the forums suggests. But considering a majority of those strikers chose to adopt the chant "you can shove your ID90s up your ar*e" during the last industrial action, I cannot help but muse over why striking for staff travel is so desperately important when everything else seems to have been somewhat cast aside.
The problem, I fear, is that people are being pressured - without knowing it - into voting "yes", and into backing up that vote by walking out. If one were to read Crew Forum (.co.uk) they would almost without doubt want to strike. I would, if I read it with any regularity (as it happens, I check in once a month). Though there are maybe only 20 people on there spouting the massively pro-Bassa gumph and urging people to strike, they post frequently and passionnately enough to make it seem as though everyone is on their side.
They're not, though. Far from it.
People still harbour the mis-guided belief that a strong "yes" vote will be enough to encourage the company's leaders to back down. It won't be.
The company's previous leadership has shown that it can run the airline well during "massive" industrial disruption. And, indeed, the company has put into place additional measures to ensure that the disruption this time will be greatly reduced.
Regardless of what the union would have you believe, coming from someone who worked during three rounds of previous strike action, things ran.... well, almost better than usual.
I agree that training our colleagues from other departments to work in our own is a crafty, somewhat underhand tactic; and to those colleagues who have volunteered to do our job, with the exception of our flight crew colleagues perhaps, I remind them that very, very few of their jobs require the same level of training they have had to undertake (off-the-job) as ours, and that helping BA this time around, though respectable, will undoubtedly come back to haunt them.
At the end of the day, this is bad news from a customer point of view, but perhaps good news from the point of view from the company and the share-holder. Whoever finds themselves in charge of dealing with the company during this latest bout of inevitible disruption will be armed with the knowledge that they can, as a result of a major union's misguidance, dismiss anyone they see as being 'troublesome' without really having to show much cause.
I applaud my colleagues for standing up for what they (are lead to) believe in, but I also plead with many of them - my friends - to consider that their actions come as the result of misguided leadership.
Anyone who thinks that Mr. Williams heralds a new era of more relaxed industrial negotiation is in for a world of pain. Mr. Williams is an accountant, through and through. A numbers man. That's not to say he wants to run rough-shod over our T&Cs as much as Mr. Walsh may be considered to have done, but nor is the man going to roll over and give the unions what they unreasonably desire.
As the months have passed I've found myself being more and more sympathetic towards my striking colleagues. Sympathetic, but not to the point of wanting to join them on the picket lines.
These are people who have seen this company return to profitability in what remains one of the most harsh trading periods ever. Yet they remain resilient in their quest to win this battle against BA.
Now, I have to say, I don't see that there's a battle anymore. I think it's been lost. WELL AND TRULY LOST. But it could have been won.
Having moved to Gatwick recently - a move seen by many as "crazy" and "downright f*cking f*cked up", I can see first hand that Gatwick represents what I think the company would view as a very, very happy middle ground between Heathrow as-is and Mixed Fleet.
Gatwick offers a happy, contented, gelled crew who do an incredible job for what is, compared to what I used to earn at Heathrow, a very low salary. I've had my problems at Gatwick (which I had previously been reluctant to discuss, but am now happy to talk about and, more importantly, defend myself against), but in general the people here are astonishingly good. Professional, dedicated, loyal and hard working. They actually put me to shame (on occasion
)So when I hear that more strikes are coming, and that the main focus of these strikes is the return of staff travel, I have to wonder if those going on strike actually know why they're walking out, and don't just walk out cos that's what seems 'popular' - to those reading various internet forums, atleast.
With a little negotiation, perhaps Heathrow could have gone to the Gatwick Fleet way of doing things, as opposed to going to what I, personally, see as being one step lower and going for Mixed Fleet's T&Cs.
The new package offered seems to have been cast aside. If it weren't for the staff travel issue, it almost seems as though the new package would be perfectly acceptable - atleast as far as the hype on the telly and on the forums suggests. But considering a majority of those strikers chose to adopt the chant "you can shove your ID90s up your ar*e" during the last industrial action, I cannot help but muse over why striking for staff travel is so desperately important when everything else seems to have been somewhat cast aside.
The problem, I fear, is that people are being pressured - without knowing it - into voting "yes", and into backing up that vote by walking out. If one were to read Crew Forum (.co.uk) they would almost without doubt want to strike. I would, if I read it with any regularity (as it happens, I check in once a month). Though there are maybe only 20 people on there spouting the massively pro-Bassa gumph and urging people to strike, they post frequently and passionnately enough to make it seem as though everyone is on their side.
They're not, though. Far from it.
People still harbour the mis-guided belief that a strong "yes" vote will be enough to encourage the company's leaders to back down. It won't be.
The company's previous leadership has shown that it can run the airline well during "massive" industrial disruption. And, indeed, the company has put into place additional measures to ensure that the disruption this time will be greatly reduced.
Regardless of what the union would have you believe, coming from someone who worked during three rounds of previous strike action, things ran.... well, almost better than usual.
I agree that training our colleagues from other departments to work in our own is a crafty, somewhat underhand tactic; and to those colleagues who have volunteered to do our job, with the exception of our flight crew colleagues perhaps, I remind them that very, very few of their jobs require the same level of training they have had to undertake (off-the-job) as ours, and that helping BA this time around, though respectable, will undoubtedly come back to haunt them.
At the end of the day, this is bad news from a customer point of view, but perhaps good news from the point of view from the company and the share-holder. Whoever finds themselves in charge of dealing with the company during this latest bout of inevitible disruption will be armed with the knowledge that they can, as a result of a major union's misguidance, dismiss anyone they see as being 'troublesome' without really having to show much cause.
I applaud my colleagues for standing up for what they (are lead to) believe in, but I also plead with many of them - my friends - to consider that their actions come as the result of misguided leadership.
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Do our more leagaly minded posters know what reasons are being given for the strike call and are they deemed to be Legal/illegal/protected/unprotected?
I think the reason is , because they can1!
Hey hey! Here's hoping that BA don't go for an injunction! A strike would be a good, clean way to identify the dross, and dump them. Go for it, Unite and BASSA! Can you walk the walk? Because the talk has been seriously unimpressive! 
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I was with you all the way....until
Eddy,
I was enjoying your extremely lucid and well argued post...nice to hear a balanced view, until this bit:
Oh dear, you maybe didn't mean it quite like that, but do you really think a few hours training would be enough to pick up the basics of -
-Revenue Management
-Financial planning
-Employee development
-IT network maintenance
-Developing brand positioning
-Purchasing negotiating
oh yes, and Engineering??
C'mon. Cabin crew is not the only rocket science in this great company.
I was enjoying your extremely lucid and well argued post...nice to hear a balanced view, until this bit:
I remind them that very, very few of their jobs require the same level of training they have had to undertake (off-the-job) as ours, and that helping BA this time around, though respectable, will undoubtedly come back to haunt them.
-Revenue Management
-Financial planning
-Employee development
-IT network maintenance
-Developing brand positioning
-Purchasing negotiating
oh yes, and Engineering??
C'mon. Cabin crew is not the only rocket science in this great company.
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I grant you that; the are many jobs in this company requiring a lot of training and specialist knowledge over and above what we, as crew, hold.
However, I'm talking about TEMPORARY staff. Temporary staff filling, essentially, gaps.
I have no doubt I could do a lot of the work in :
-Revenue Management
-Financial planning
-Employee development
-IT network maintenance
-Developing brand positioning
-Purchasing negotiating
oh yes, and Engineering??
I'm sure many of these departments endure more menial, tedious paperwork than we do, as crew. And if I'm told what to type into a database, I'll type it. How much training will I need?
I don't think I could walk in and be a Revenue Manager, a Financial Planner or an Employee Developer without significant training, but I bet I could do enough of the job to let those still working in those departments do twice the amount of actual planning/developing/managing that they might normally do.
However, I'm talking about TEMPORARY staff. Temporary staff filling, essentially, gaps.
I have no doubt I could do a lot of the work in :
-Revenue Management
-Financial planning
-Employee development
-IT network maintenance
-Developing brand positioning
-Purchasing negotiating
oh yes, and Engineering??
I'm sure many of these departments endure more menial, tedious paperwork than we do, as crew. And if I'm told what to type into a database, I'll type it. How much training will I need?
I don't think I could walk in and be a Revenue Manager, a Financial Planner or an Employee Developer without significant training, but I bet I could do enough of the job to let those still working in those departments do twice the amount of actual planning/developing/managing that they might normally do.
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Hear Hear DTM
I thought Eddy's posts were always extremely well thought out and observant but to say that CC training (6-8 weeks) is anything like that which licenced aircraft engineers go through is ill informed. Revenue Management (passenger and cargo) can make or break an airline quicker than a gradual decline in cabin service. Sooo many airlines have gone to the wall because of that one failure.
All departments are important in order to complete the given service - that is why they exist. If not, they would have been dispensed with long ago. You can't fly without F/D or CC but unless someone sells, books, plans, fuels, loads and dispatches the flight, it ain't going anywhere.
What is right from the Unite camp is that regardless of whether BA operate a 100% L/H programme or not, business will be put off. Why would any sane J Class passenger pay that class of fare to be told once on board that it is a reduced service due to CC action. I'd rather take an alternative and most business pax I talk to would as well.
I'm not a BA employee (another competing carrier) but I am a BA supporter but until this is sorted, there is better service available for the same or even less money so why take a risk?
All departments are important in order to complete the given service - that is why they exist. If not, they would have been dispensed with long ago. You can't fly without F/D or CC but unless someone sells, books, plans, fuels, loads and dispatches the flight, it ain't going anywhere.
What is right from the Unite camp is that regardless of whether BA operate a 100% L/H programme or not, business will be put off. Why would any sane J Class passenger pay that class of fare to be told once on board that it is a reduced service due to CC action. I'd rather take an alternative and most business pax I talk to would as well.
I'm not a BA employee (another competing carrier) but I am a BA supporter but until this is sorted, there is better service available for the same or even less money so why take a risk?
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I maintain : I couldn't be a Revenue Manager tomorrow - or even in eight weeks - without on-the-job assistance from more experienced and knowledgeable RMs. But nor can a Revenue Manager become a member of crew and go flying with 8 weeks of training without someone with more experience 'holding their hand', so to speak.
You need a certain number of EXPERIENCED crew on an aircraft to actually keep things running..... But with guidance, help and supervision, those with little experience can do the job - or parts of it.....
Without undermining the excellent work our VCCs have done, I don't believe for a second that, given a medical emergency onboard, our 'normal' crew wouldn't be turned to to take the lead.
Having worked during the strikes, I'd disagree (if I were a J-paying passenger). If I had any experience of flying with BA during the strikes I'd know that, despite a marginally reduced service (just fewer food options, really), the service onboard is actually better because those serving me/you WANT to be there.
You need a certain number of EXPERIENCED crew on an aircraft to actually keep things running..... But with guidance, help and supervision, those with little experience can do the job - or parts of it.....
Without undermining the excellent work our VCCs have done, I don't believe for a second that, given a medical emergency onboard, our 'normal' crew wouldn't be turned to to take the lead.
Why would any sane J Class passenger pay that class of fare to be told once on board that it is a reduced service due to CC action. I'd rather take an alternative and most business pax I talk to would as well.
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Hear what you are saying Eddy - but believe me, there are a lot of Engineers that are VCC.
Can't speak for other departments so I'll let them have their word - but I'm talking about licensed guys and the like. Many, many doing jobs in offices that require at the very least a recognised apprenticeship or 5-10 years experience.
Besides - it's not really about "who's job is more menial than another", I don;t want to get into that and I know you don't mean to either.
The main point is that for CC training as a whole - it's one course, common across the board for all volunteering. Lots of organising, but in the end, repetitive training over and over for each person passing through Cranebank. End result? VCC
If, say the same were to happen in any other department - you would need many, many different courses of different lengths. The logisitics - I would say, would be nigh-on impossible.
Apart from the fact that many jobs don;t have training centres set-up where you go in one end and come out the other qualified - albeit raw.
Most of our training is done on-job.
Can't speak for other departments so I'll let them have their word - but I'm talking about licensed guys and the like. Many, many doing jobs in offices that require at the very least a recognised apprenticeship or 5-10 years experience.
Besides - it's not really about "who's job is more menial than another", I don;t want to get into that and I know you don't mean to either.
The main point is that for CC training as a whole - it's one course, common across the board for all volunteering. Lots of organising, but in the end, repetitive training over and over for each person passing through Cranebank. End result? VCC
If, say the same were to happen in any other department - you would need many, many different courses of different lengths. The logisitics - I would say, would be nigh-on impossible.
Apart from the fact that many jobs don;t have training centres set-up where you go in one end and come out the other qualified - albeit raw.
Most of our training is done on-job.
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All departments are important in order to complete the given service - that is why they exist. If not, they would have been dispensed with long ago. You can't fly without F/D or CC but unless someone sells, books, plans, fuels, loads and dispatches the flight, it ain't going anywhere.
We all depend on each other to get the job done and no-one is more important or special than anyone else.