BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Betty Girl,
I think you generally post a lot of well thought out and balanced views here, but I am having trouble with your continued defence of all cabin crew.
None of the recent posters, as far as I can see, is attempting to 'tar all crew with the same brush'. On the contrary many are making it quite explicit that the majority of cabin crew they fly with are no problem at all. They are merely stating what is, in all honesty, almost inevitable in a company the size of BA - some people don't like their job, the people they work with (notably from other departments) and the company they work for.
In a work force of some 10,000 is that really so much of a surprise? There are indeed cabin crew who dislike pilots, regardless of the fact that many others are married to them. Just because most normal people are able to get along fine with each other it doesn't mean all cabin crew get on fine with all pilots (and vice versa).
A lot of this ill feeling comes from fairly minor 'snubs', in my opinion. If the cabin crew board the plane and the flight crew are already on board (pretty common on shorthaul) would you expect them to pause briefly at the (always open) flight deck door and shout a quick hello/wave? I would, I believe its simple courtesy. Would you be surprised to learn that probably 50% of cabin crew do not, for whatever reason, do this, heading straight to the back of the aircraft and requiring the Capt/FO to come down and see them?
Similarly I've had several occasions recently where a decent crew have got off the aircraft on a nightstop and walked off through the terminal without waiting for the pilots. These were not flights with a bad atmosphere, in fact on at least one of these occaisions we met up later for dinner.
These are small things, I agree, but the impression you get from working with a crew who behave like this is pretty negative. It doesn't take much (the odd yellow pen for example) to make people start jumping to conclusions here - 'Ahh, they're strikers, they didn't say hello when they boarded so it's obvious they hate pilots.....'
I think you generally post a lot of well thought out and balanced views here, but I am having trouble with your continued defence of all cabin crew.
None of the recent posters, as far as I can see, is attempting to 'tar all crew with the same brush'. On the contrary many are making it quite explicit that the majority of cabin crew they fly with are no problem at all. They are merely stating what is, in all honesty, almost inevitable in a company the size of BA - some people don't like their job, the people they work with (notably from other departments) and the company they work for.
In a work force of some 10,000 is that really so much of a surprise? There are indeed cabin crew who dislike pilots, regardless of the fact that many others are married to them. Just because most normal people are able to get along fine with each other it doesn't mean all cabin crew get on fine with all pilots (and vice versa).
A lot of this ill feeling comes from fairly minor 'snubs', in my opinion. If the cabin crew board the plane and the flight crew are already on board (pretty common on shorthaul) would you expect them to pause briefly at the (always open) flight deck door and shout a quick hello/wave? I would, I believe its simple courtesy. Would you be surprised to learn that probably 50% of cabin crew do not, for whatever reason, do this, heading straight to the back of the aircraft and requiring the Capt/FO to come down and see them?
Similarly I've had several occasions recently where a decent crew have got off the aircraft on a nightstop and walked off through the terminal without waiting for the pilots. These were not flights with a bad atmosphere, in fact on at least one of these occaisions we met up later for dinner.
These are small things, I agree, but the impression you get from working with a crew who behave like this is pretty negative. It doesn't take much (the odd yellow pen for example) to make people start jumping to conclusions here - 'Ahh, they're strikers, they didn't say hello when they boarded so it's obvious they hate pilots.....'
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All,
Just so we are all clear on the issue.
Flight Crew are absolutly entitled to take rest in First class (in fact any seat on the aircarft), or swap a rest seat in Club for one in first once the doors are closed.
Please read your manuals. If CC notices say something different they are incorrect.
ATB
Just so we are all clear on the issue.
Flight Crew are absolutly entitled to take rest in First class (in fact any seat on the aircarft), or swap a rest seat in Club for one in first once the doors are closed.
Please read your manuals. If CC notices say something different they are incorrect.
ATB
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8029848s
I don't think anyone has disputed the fact that flight crew can take their rest anywhere they like.
I am cabin crew and, as far as I am concerned, the Captain is in charge of everyone and everything on board. He can do (and tell people to do) whatever he likes as long as it is within the law - and that includes upgrading people!!! He may have to account for himself back at base if he made a really strange decision, but whilst on board he is totally in charge.
The Blu Ribband was asked for his motivation in declining the request for cabin crew to take their rest in Club. It is only in very exceptional circumstances that I have seen cabin crew take their rest in Club with passengers in the cabin (for reasons such as mentioned by Suninmyeyes) - maybe twice in 15 years - and very few crew would expect it.
However, one rule which baffles many of us is that, despite the fact that it is specifically stated that pilots are allowed their crew rest in First, Club or anywhere else regardless of passengers in the cabin, cabin crew are not allowed to rest in Club even if there are no passengers in club at all - and therefore we are not disturbing anyone and no passenger should know we were there. It is not something I think any of us loses sleep over, but a strange rule - for which I believe CSDs have been reported and disciplined for breaching in the past.
Anyway, in summary, no one disputes the flight crew can take their rest anywhere; but it is strange that the cabin crew cannot take their rest in Club even if it is completely empty of passengers. But it really isn't an issue worth worrying about.
I don't think anyone has disputed the fact that flight crew can take their rest anywhere they like.
I am cabin crew and, as far as I am concerned, the Captain is in charge of everyone and everything on board. He can do (and tell people to do) whatever he likes as long as it is within the law - and that includes upgrading people!!! He may have to account for himself back at base if he made a really strange decision, but whilst on board he is totally in charge.
The Blu Ribband was asked for his motivation in declining the request for cabin crew to take their rest in Club. It is only in very exceptional circumstances that I have seen cabin crew take their rest in Club with passengers in the cabin (for reasons such as mentioned by Suninmyeyes) - maybe twice in 15 years - and very few crew would expect it.
However, one rule which baffles many of us is that, despite the fact that it is specifically stated that pilots are allowed their crew rest in First, Club or anywhere else regardless of passengers in the cabin, cabin crew are not allowed to rest in Club even if there are no passengers in club at all - and therefore we are not disturbing anyone and no passenger should know we were there. It is not something I think any of us loses sleep over, but a strange rule - for which I believe CSDs have been reported and disciplined for breaching in the past.
Anyway, in summary, no one disputes the flight crew can take their rest anywhere; but it is strange that the cabin crew cannot take their rest in Club even if it is completely empty of passengers. But it really isn't an issue worth worrying about.
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spin doctor,
I see exactly what you are saying but I think all the descriptions you give work both ways.
I was just getting a bit fed up and I know many other cabin crew feel the same, of people posting on hear about crew as if flying with BA cabin crew in general is a horrid experience. I know there must be a few bad apples but in general pilots and cabin crew get on very well in BA.
Anyone from another airline or a member of the general public would not see that view from reading these cabin crew threads. They would see a completely distorted view posted by a few particular posters constantly taking the worst examples of cabin crew and portraying it as if that is normal on BA.
I just wanted people to know that many of us don't experience BA like this. I despite all that is going on, which I do find very upsetting, am having a great relationship with ALL pilots whether they be in charge of the aircraft or commuters or just sitting on the car park bus. I witness daily Worldwide crew and their pilots chatting away in the security area and at the bus stop after a flight quite happily.
Of course I know that on Worldwide, there has been and it stems back over thirty plus years , a dislike of each other from some on BOTH sides of the door. Maybe the VCC situation has reignited all this but in general and especially the younger CSDs this has been improving on Worldwide and I just would hate people to think that all this nastiness is the norm because it is not.
That's all. Trouble is on hear you make a post trying to explain things as you see it and you get basically pulled to shreds, not by you, and it kind of looks like you are going on and on and on but your just defending your original post really.
I see exactly what you are saying but I think all the descriptions you give work both ways.
I was just getting a bit fed up and I know many other cabin crew feel the same, of people posting on hear about crew as if flying with BA cabin crew in general is a horrid experience. I know there must be a few bad apples but in general pilots and cabin crew get on very well in BA.
Anyone from another airline or a member of the general public would not see that view from reading these cabin crew threads. They would see a completely distorted view posted by a few particular posters constantly taking the worst examples of cabin crew and portraying it as if that is normal on BA.
I just wanted people to know that many of us don't experience BA like this. I despite all that is going on, which I do find very upsetting, am having a great relationship with ALL pilots whether they be in charge of the aircraft or commuters or just sitting on the car park bus. I witness daily Worldwide crew and their pilots chatting away in the security area and at the bus stop after a flight quite happily.
Of course I know that on Worldwide, there has been and it stems back over thirty plus years , a dislike of each other from some on BOTH sides of the door. Maybe the VCC situation has reignited all this but in general and especially the younger CSDs this has been improving on Worldwide and I just would hate people to think that all this nastiness is the norm because it is not.
That's all. Trouble is on hear you make a post trying to explain things as you see it and you get basically pulled to shreds, not by you, and it kind of looks like you are going on and on and on but your just defending your original post really.
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Circular arguments and unspoken attitudes clearly underpinning expressed opinions; this line of discussion is not taking us anywhere.
In real time, it is pleasant, professional cooperation on the line that matters, not what is written here.
For now let's remember that this is the Cabin Crew forum, and that this thread is not about the relations between the Pilot and the CC communities, but about BA CC industrial relations.
Let´s step away from the current side-track and move forward please.
In real time, it is pleasant, professional cooperation on the line that matters, not what is written here.
For now let's remember that this is the Cabin Crew forum, and that this thread is not about the relations between the Pilot and the CC communities, but about BA CC industrial relations.
Let´s step away from the current side-track and move forward please.
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....there will be plenty to discuss later today after all remember :-)
BBC News - BA awaiting strike ballot result
BBC News - BA awaiting strike ballot result
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I was told the rule about cabin crew not taking rest in First/Club came about after the Naroibi incident, when it transpired rather more people were taking rest than should have been. Anyone familiar with the investigation here? (The real one, not the 'medals for all and the Orient Express' one!)
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There has always been a rule that Cabin crew should not sleep in passenger cabins, at least for the almost quarter of a century that I have been flying! What has varied has been the punishment handed out for transgressions. I can remember a SCCM being stripped of rank as long ago as 1990ish for sleeping in First. Personally the only exception to this I have made is when I have a crew member who is unwell and then only after consultation with the skipper or when ferrying an empty aircraft when all rules are suspended!
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Meanwhile back at the OK corral. On some of the other forums, they believe its going to be an 80%+ YES on a %80-90 turnout, mainly due to LGW now 'supporting' Unite. 
NO chance IMHO
NO chance IMHO
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The previous posts are typical BA, 6000 + cabin crew about to go out on strike ,a dispute that has been running for over 2 years and people are discussing where they can sleep on the aircraft.
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Stormin norman,
Just out of interest, what airline do you work for.
Looking through your posting history you seem to have a view about all airlines.
Up until now I think people probably thought you worked for BA but looking at all your post I'm not sure who you work for now. Just interested.
Just out of interest, what airline do you work for.
Looking through your posting history you seem to have a view about all airlines.
Up until now I think people probably thought you worked for BA but looking at all your post I'm not sure who you work for now. Just interested.
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ottergirl,
im no doubting that you are correct re this crew rest rule .Can you actually qoute it or point me in the right direction as to where it is written? I simply can not find it written down myself ,even using the emanuals.......fact or custom and practice ,i can't be sure
im no doubting that you are correct re this crew rest rule .Can you actually qoute it or point me in the right direction as to where it is written? I simply can not find it written down myself ,even using the emanuals.......fact or custom and practice ,i can't be sure
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Originally Posted by stormin norman
The previous posts are typical BA, 6000 + cabin crew about to go out on strike ,a dispute that has been running for over 2 years and people are discussing where they can sleep on the aircraft.
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So you don't think saying 'Typical BA' is not a blanket attack on all of us then. It was after all a pilot that introduced this ridiculous debate about where you can rest in the aircraft. By introducing one of his usual generalisations about cabin crew into this thread. Don't you think.
Obviously tightshot took it the same way as I did. Irrelevant and just done to be unpleasant.
Obviously tightshot took it the same way as I did. Irrelevant and just done to be unpleasant.
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Theres a risk of being oversensitive here.
How can "typical BA" be personal? It absolutely is typical of BA (as a company) to be focussing on the irrelevant whilst missing the big picture. I see no mention of cabin crew.
Your post was however directly personal.
How can "typical BA" be personal? It absolutely is typical of BA (as a company) to be focussing on the irrelevant whilst missing the big picture. I see no mention of cabin crew.
Your post was however directly personal.
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My post was very polite. Stormin Norman has for the last two years spoken about BA and it's crews as if he is an expert and I think many would assume that he was a pilot or worked for us.
I don't think that is particularly personal it's interesting because it sheds a whole new light on what he posts and why he posts it.
Not sure if I would just pop into the thread of some staff of another company and just sling in an unhelpful comment.
I personally have not given any view on where crew take their rest, up until now, because I agree with you that it is a pointless discussion brought up by Blue rib to give yet another example of why he cannot get on with his BA cabin crew...... Yawn.
I don't think that is particularly personal it's interesting because it sheds a whole new light on what he posts and why he posts it.
Not sure if I would just pop into the thread of some staff of another company and just sling in an unhelpful comment.
I personally have not given any view on where crew take their rest, up until now, because I agree with you that it is a pointless discussion brought up by Blue rib to give yet another example of why he cannot get on with his BA cabin crew...... Yawn.
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Please can we all just chill out??
Betty Girl
I am BA. I am not crew (Flight or Cabin).
I have read many of your posts and find you to be balanced and fair. I also think you represent a very professional side of BA CC and our on board product / offering. I also note you are not the biggest fan of BASSA but open and understanding to the views of others - both anti strikers and those who have gone on strike and those that sit somewhere in the middle (now) and feel let down by BA and BASSA.
I say the above so hopefully you can see me as someone that admires you and that there is no malice in this post.
I really think that you are allowing some people to wind you up too much and are taking their bait. In doing so you are in danger of losing your balance, which would be a shame.
As hard as it is please ignore those who bait you and you feel are trying to malign either BA, our product or our crew. It is simply not worth it (on here) and prolonging the debate just adds more fuel to the fire and it is in danger of becoming as drawn out and as bitter as the dispute between BA and BASSA.
I hope you take this in the spirit it is intended?
ORJ
I am BA. I am not crew (Flight or Cabin).
I have read many of your posts and find you to be balanced and fair. I also think you represent a very professional side of BA CC and our on board product / offering. I also note you are not the biggest fan of BASSA but open and understanding to the views of others - both anti strikers and those who have gone on strike and those that sit somewhere in the middle (now) and feel let down by BA and BASSA.
I say the above so hopefully you can see me as someone that admires you and that there is no malice in this post.
I really think that you are allowing some people to wind you up too much and are taking their bait. In doing so you are in danger of losing your balance, which would be a shame.
As hard as it is please ignore those who bait you and you feel are trying to malign either BA, our product or our crew. It is simply not worth it (on here) and prolonging the debate just adds more fuel to the fire and it is in danger of becoming as drawn out and as bitter as the dispute between BA and BASSA.
I hope you take this in the spirit it is intended?
ORJ