BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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So you reject all the points I make?
Perhaps it's the nature of anonymous discussion forums but I can assure you I'll be more to your liking in person.
Apologies for offending your sensitivities.
Perhaps it's the nature of anonymous discussion forums but I can assure you I'll be more to your liking in person.
Apologies for offending your sensitivities.
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Bassawitch,
I wasn't particularly referring to your posts just the posts in general over the last hour.
Sometimes it feels like you are circling like a bunch of sharks picking on every little thing someone says.
I am sure you are lovely to work with as are most pilots and as are most cabin crew. I just get a bit fed up when people talk about us and generalise about a community that has well over 10,000 of us many of whom have married pilots. In fact some pilots have married up to three, not at the same time of course!!!!! We can't all be that bad, can we.
I wasn't particularly referring to your posts just the posts in general over the last hour.
Sometimes it feels like you are circling like a bunch of sharks picking on every little thing someone says.
I am sure you are lovely to work with as are most pilots and as are most cabin crew. I just get a bit fed up when people talk about us and generalise about a community that has well over 10,000 of us many of whom have married pilots. In fact some pilots have married up to three, not at the same time of course!!!!! We can't all be that bad, can we.
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Let's not put our heads in the sand and pretend there's not a problem , when we all know there is!
Part of being a sccm (or a pilot) is taking the responsibility to address those problems.
BG
If you think there are no problems with ANY crew on euro-fleet then you are - quite simply - wrong.
Equally you should read the posts more carefully and will then understand that I , and others, are trying very hard NOT to generalise.
I said that there are many outstanding crew. You said some were "truly good", which made me laugh !!
Like I said, we'll soon see how extensive the problem remains.
Part of being a sccm (or a pilot) is taking the responsibility to address those problems.
BG
If you think there are no problems with ANY crew on euro-fleet then you are - quite simply - wrong.
Equally you should read the posts more carefully and will then understand that I , and others, are trying very hard NOT to generalise.
I said that there are many outstanding crew. You said some were "truly good", which made me laugh !!
Like I said, we'll soon see how extensive the problem remains.
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Blu Rib,
I have to say that I find your posts very condescending and I personally find that you and about five other pilots generalise all the time.
Just click on your own post history and you will be able to read through all your generalisations.
I find that in life some people look for the best in people and some look for the worst. I do of course see a lot of distressed crew that have been dragged into a unnecessary strike but I haven't yet come across someone that has not been doing a great job looking after our passengers while working under me.
I think you will find that, unfortunately, they will again vote for a strike.
Before you all bite my head off, remember that I am no longer a member of Bassa and have never striked and when I do take the time to impart the feelings of some of the strikers, I generally get shouted down by people who never generalise.
I have to say that I find your posts very condescending and I personally find that you and about five other pilots generalise all the time.
Just click on your own post history and you will be able to read through all your generalisations.
I find that in life some people look for the best in people and some look for the worst. I do of course see a lot of distressed crew that have been dragged into a unnecessary strike but I haven't yet come across someone that has not been doing a great job looking after our passengers while working under me.
I think you will find that, unfortunately, they will again vote for a strike.
Before you all bite my head off, remember that I am no longer a member of Bassa and have never striked and when I do take the time to impart the feelings of some of the strikers, I generally get shouted down by people who never generalise.
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Two sides to every story. Whilst one MF crew member may have their flatmate green, or orange, with envy others are not fairing so well. Having a wife who is an ex-temp, who was invited to join mixed fleet and who declined, I also have friends who are on or close to MF. Friend 1 on the fleet is already looking elsewhere for work, friend 2 had delayed taking up a position on MF and managed to have their temp contract extended on WW. This person may never make it to mixed fleet as she has applied to Monarch Airways. The t&cs and cash are better, maybe even MF plus 10%.
The Blu Riband, what can I say. I know we should fight the argument etc but.....
'many crew have a poor attitude' - perhaps a minority much like a minority of pilots, managers, engineers, office staff, cleaners, red caps et al.
And I hope your last trip didn't have a heavy pilot, meaning the flight deck crew could nominate a first class bed to have a rest in. This may well be your contracted and fought for condition of employment, and I'm happy that you have such a condition, however I'm unhappy that you feel nobody else should have perks or retain t&cs. I'm afraid you paint a very poor picture of cabin crew to any outsider looking in.
The Blu Riband, what can I say. I know we should fight the argument etc but.....
'many crew have a poor attitude' - perhaps a minority much like a minority of pilots, managers, engineers, office staff, cleaners, red caps et al.
And I hope your last trip didn't have a heavy pilot, meaning the flight deck crew could nominate a first class bed to have a rest in. This may well be your contracted and fought for condition of employment, and I'm happy that you have such a condition, however I'm unhappy that you feel nobody else should have perks or retain t&cs. I'm afraid you paint a very poor picture of cabin crew to any outsider looking in.
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There seems to be a few rumours flying around that pilots have been told by Balpa not to volunteer as VCC. Just thought I'd put that little Bassa fib to bed, as it's total rubbish.
Oh and we don't get £2000 for a Bombay, just normal allowances, as if we were on a normal trip.
Oh and we don't get £2000 for a Bombay, just normal allowances, as if we were on a normal trip.
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The Blu Riband
Then we all fell out when I declined their request to take their rest in club.
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MFCREW,
The Club/First rest seat is part of the pilot's agreement. It is also related to whether the aircraft is equipped with bunks.
The cabin crew agreement is curtained rest seats in WT. As BASSA is so keen to stick to agreements at the moment, why would they want cabin crew to move forwards and break that agreement? For now, I'd be inclined to agree with my colleague above.
The Club/First rest seat is part of the pilot's agreement. It is also related to whether the aircraft is equipped with bunks.
The cabin crew agreement is curtained rest seats in WT. As BASSA is so keen to stick to agreements at the moment, why would they want cabin crew to move forwards and break that agreement? For now, I'd be inclined to agree with my colleague above.
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Human Factor
The cabin crew agreement is curtained rest seats in WT. As BASSA is so keen to stick to agreements at the moment, why would they want cabin crew to move forwards and break that agreement? For now, I'd be inclined to agree with my colleague above.
So just to "punish" the crew you would also not allow them to sit in Club - this is what I was referring to in my previous post - what a vile atmosphere currently exists.
Betty Girl, just because you believe that all crew on E/F work well does not make it so.
As a S/H captain I certainly think that the vast majority of cabin crew on S/H are a credit to the themselves and the airline. However, there are still a fair number of individuals that should not be operating as cabin crew.
Very, very few pilots are 'anti cabin crew' and it is very annoying when we keep seeing this kind of rubbish being printed. However, a very large majority of us are very anti the pathetic behaviour of bassa. Over many years we have had to watch them swaggering about like bullies, bullying management and their own members.
There have been so many blatant lies from bassa reps (not just exaggerations), that have been proven to be lies, but so many cabin crew seem to believe these lies. THAT is the huge issue about this continuing debacle.
Looking at all the facts and information that have been made public over the last 2 years I am certain that BA are not 'whiter than white', nor that bassa are 'blacker than black' - but I think the grey is certainly a very light shade of grey.
Sadly I think that the continuing bassa lies will be believed and that a strike will have been voted for. I further think that the number voting for strike will be a small minority of the total number of cabin crew, so what purpose will it serve.
Will Untie allow a strike - which based on all the evidence will certainly be unprotected - is maybe not so certain??
How long will BAs patience last - not much longer I feel, especially now that 'Legal' are in charge!
As a S/H captain I certainly think that the vast majority of cabin crew on S/H are a credit to the themselves and the airline. However, there are still a fair number of individuals that should not be operating as cabin crew.
Very, very few pilots are 'anti cabin crew' and it is very annoying when we keep seeing this kind of rubbish being printed. However, a very large majority of us are very anti the pathetic behaviour of bassa. Over many years we have had to watch them swaggering about like bullies, bullying management and their own members.
There have been so many blatant lies from bassa reps (not just exaggerations), that have been proven to be lies, but so many cabin crew seem to believe these lies. THAT is the huge issue about this continuing debacle.
Looking at all the facts and information that have been made public over the last 2 years I am certain that BA are not 'whiter than white', nor that bassa are 'blacker than black' - but I think the grey is certainly a very light shade of grey.
Sadly I think that the continuing bassa lies will be believed and that a strike will have been voted for. I further think that the number voting for strike will be a small minority of the total number of cabin crew, so what purpose will it serve.
Will Untie allow a strike - which based on all the evidence will certainly be unprotected - is maybe not so certain??
How long will BAs patience last - not much longer I feel, especially now that 'Legal' are in charge!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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So just to "punish" the crew you would also not allow them to sit in Club - this is what I was referring to in my previous post - what a vile atmosphere currently exists.
If BASSA wish crew to stick rigidly to their agreements, why should they subsequently pick and choose which parts of those agreements they wish to stick to?
Any "vile atmosphere" which exists is due to BASSA and BASSA alone. For the record, I am actually on shorthaul and have had no "atmospheric" issues with Eurofleet crew at all. Ironically, I have had some pleasant conversations with strikers about this very issue with no animosity in either direction.
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Sporran,
I can only speak as I see it on MY flights. I have not seen any crew with a bad attitude on ANY of my flights.
Maybe I set a different tone to some SCCMs but as I have only flown a couple of times, when working down, with other SCCMs who had a similar style to me incidentally, I can obviously only speak for my own crew and not for the ones you fly with.
It is very easy indeed to come on a forum like this and give the general public a completely slanted view of BA cabin crew and as I say it is the same old names time and again.
I am sure there are a lot of pilots that see things as I do but maybe unlike us saddos they are busy leading a normal life rather than posting on here and putting down their colleagues all the time.
Amazingly you can get put down on here for saying you have good crews that don't show a bad attitude. Basically whatever I say is torn to shreds unless I am putting Bassa down which of course I do do from time to time.
I can only speak as I see it on MY flights. I have not seen any crew with a bad attitude on ANY of my flights.
Maybe I set a different tone to some SCCMs but as I have only flown a couple of times, when working down, with other SCCMs who had a similar style to me incidentally, I can obviously only speak for my own crew and not for the ones you fly with.
It is very easy indeed to come on a forum like this and give the general public a completely slanted view of BA cabin crew and as I say it is the same old names time and again.
I am sure there are a lot of pilots that see things as I do but maybe unlike us saddos they are busy leading a normal life rather than posting on here and putting down their colleagues all the time.
Amazingly you can get put down on here for saying you have good crews that don't show a bad attitude. Basically whatever I say is torn to shreds unless I am putting Bassa down which of course I do do from time to time.
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Well there you are Sporran and Blue rib,
Human Factor has not had any E/F crew with a bad attitude. I am not the only one. Are either of you on E/F or do you just assume all crew are the same and GENERALISE.
Human Factor has had the same experience as me in that just because someone decided to strike it does not make them a bad crew member.
I sure am glad that I am on E/F.
Human Factor has not had any E/F crew with a bad attitude. I am not the only one. Are either of you on E/F or do you just assume all crew are the same and GENERALISE.
Human Factor has had the same experience as me in that just because someone decided to strike it does not make them a bad crew member.
I sure am glad that I am on E/F.
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MF Crew you said
The cabin crew have been told in crew notices and also in Cabin Crew News that they may only take their rest in their crew rest seats or in bunks. Yet they still sometimes ask if they can take their rest in 1st when there are no passengers in that section. I used to let them with a few provisos. I don't risk that now because on another flight one of the cabin crew who took rest in First subsequently reported the Captain. One of those sad occasions where one person ruins it for the rest.
One time I would let the cabin crew rest in Club would be if it was a long range flight, ie Singapore where they are entitled to horizontal rest and for some reason, such as a low air flow warning, the bunks were unavailable.
Incidentally if I am on a 2 flight crew sector and there are bunks on board I will always let the cabin crew use the flight crew bunks or overhead rest area. We have nothing to lose and it helps the harmony.
This forum often gives the impression that flight and cabin crew are daggers drawn all the time. Not so at all and as per usual I have recently had some great rapport both off and on the plane with our cabin crews. I just tend to avoid certain topics of conversation. Let's hope a solution is found soon.
As I have no axe to grind with current crew - can I ask why did you decline to let them take their rest in Club - after all the Flight Crew have a Club rest seat and often change it to a seat in First I have been told
One time I would let the cabin crew rest in Club would be if it was a long range flight, ie Singapore where they are entitled to horizontal rest and for some reason, such as a low air flow warning, the bunks were unavailable.
Incidentally if I am on a 2 flight crew sector and there are bunks on board I will always let the cabin crew use the flight crew bunks or overhead rest area. We have nothing to lose and it helps the harmony.
This forum often gives the impression that flight and cabin crew are daggers drawn all the time. Not so at all and as per usual I have recently had some great rapport both off and on the plane with our cabin crews. I just tend to avoid certain topics of conversation. Let's hope a solution is found soon.
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Thanks Suninmyeyes for what I see as a balanced view and as I say I have great relationships with all the pilots I work with.
I feel it is a great shame that a few posters and as I have said, it is the same ones ALL the time, continually tar all cabin crew with this poisonous view that they have.
Anyone that did not fly would think we all despise each other and that is not true. As I said many pilots are married to cabin crew and particularly on E/F we often go out to eat together or have a drink down in the bar, strikers and non-strikers alike.
Plus there are some pilots that have a lot of sympathy with the situation that crew are in and are not at all happy that some of their colleagues acted as volunteers but of course all believe that Bassa handled this badly as do I and all the thousands of us that did not strike.
I feel it is a great shame that a few posters and as I have said, it is the same ones ALL the time, continually tar all cabin crew with this poisonous view that they have.
Anyone that did not fly would think we all despise each other and that is not true. As I said many pilots are married to cabin crew and particularly on E/F we often go out to eat together or have a drink down in the bar, strikers and non-strikers alike.
Plus there are some pilots that have a lot of sympathy with the situation that crew are in and are not at all happy that some of their colleagues acted as volunteers but of course all believe that Bassa handled this badly as do I and all the thousands of us that did not strike.
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MFCREW,
As a CSD, I would not allow my crew to take rest in the Club or First cabin.
Unfortunately, CSDs have been reported in the past for doing such, so it is just not worth it.
At the end of the day the CSD is accountable for such actions and therefore risks getting into trouble, facing possible suspension.
It might be seen as a 'perk' to some but the cabin crew who might enjoy their rest in a First or Club seat don't have to face the risk of being reported.
Our agreements require us to have horizontal rest provided on a box 2 and above. Horizontal rest on any other flights is a bonus but not a requirement.
Besides, what impression does it give if 8 crew take their rest in a cabin with fare paying customers in? Not very professional.
My opinion, of course.
As a CSD, I would not allow my crew to take rest in the Club or First cabin.
Unfortunately, CSDs have been reported in the past for doing such, so it is just not worth it.
At the end of the day the CSD is accountable for such actions and therefore risks getting into trouble, facing possible suspension.
It might be seen as a 'perk' to some but the cabin crew who might enjoy their rest in a First or Club seat don't have to face the risk of being reported.
Our agreements require us to have horizontal rest provided on a box 2 and above. Horizontal rest on any other flights is a bonus but not a requirement.
Besides, what impression does it give if 8 crew take their rest in a cabin with fare paying customers in? Not very professional.
My opinion, of course.
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Sporran
I am surprised that you think that 'there are a fair number of crew on Eurofleet who should not be operating as cabin crew' because like Betty I would say that there are but a handful out of a community of 2700. I have encountered only two who have required some specific managing and have heard of a couple more through the CSD rumour network. I also am aware that the main crew talk of one or two pursers who strike fear in their hearts and 1 legendary CSD although I don't get to fly with either anymore! (Definately not Bettygirl may I say!)
As for 'anti cabin crew pilots', only a couple of those that I can detect on the Airbus and it may be that they just are anti-everything and everyone! It (Eurofleet) is largely a harmonious community on both sides of the door but, it may be that if your flights are not so then there is a common denominating factor?
Blu Riband
Absolutely and I am addressing them wherever I find them. However it pained me to hear a Captain describe a recent encounter with aforesaid legendary CSD and admit that he did not challenge her lack of SEP pre-flight checks because he "didn't want to make things any worse!" We all need to step up here and four stripes gives you a lot more authority than any of the main crew would have had on that flight.
I am surprised that you think that 'there are a fair number of crew on Eurofleet who should not be operating as cabin crew' because like Betty I would say that there are but a handful out of a community of 2700. I have encountered only two who have required some specific managing and have heard of a couple more through the CSD rumour network. I also am aware that the main crew talk of one or two pursers who strike fear in their hearts and 1 legendary CSD although I don't get to fly with either anymore! (Definately not Bettygirl may I say!)
As for 'anti cabin crew pilots', only a couple of those that I can detect on the Airbus and it may be that they just are anti-everything and everyone! It (Eurofleet) is largely a harmonious community on both sides of the door but, it may be that if your flights are not so then there is a common denominating factor?
Blu Riband
Part of being a sccm (or a pilot) is taking the responsibility to address those problems.
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Betty Girl
an unskilled job, such as loader, check in staff, admin staff
Worth bearing in mind that the training for Check-in is longer that the CC training, which if it was an unskilled job, would rather reflect poorly on the role of CC.
I would like to clarify, that i think the CC job, when done properly IS a taxing one. Just as is check-in, as is loading etc. CC as a role may not need a huge list of qualifications, but dealing with the public in a controlled environment, whilst working fairly long days, and remembering lots of procedures and regs is tiring, and doing so with a genuine smile on your face is not easy. Likewise for check-in agents with 20 people waiting in front of their desk to check in, or the agents in NCL with 16,000 cases waiting and a permanently flashing phone.
The skill in any job, no matter how many or few qualifications it needs, is doing whatever it involves properly, and doing it wholeheartedly. Pilot, check in agent, CC, engineer or loader, all have different skills and challenges, but all require genuine effort to be great at it.
Ottergirl,
I did not say that there is lack of harmony on my flights - and if you had flown with me I am certain you would agree!!
It is about balance! I have stated many times that the vast majority of cabin crew do a good job, but all I am saying is that there are still some real bad eggs. Whether or not they went on strike is immaterial in the way that I treat crew. I always try and treat people the way I would like to be treated myself. That policy has worked very well over many, many years!!
This debate is NOT about pilots versus cabin crew - no matter that some people seem intent on making it so.
I believe that this dispute started purely because bassa reps did not want to lose their power, and their over-stated ability to affect the operation. Alas, it now also appears to be about a lack of trust from a group of people towards their management. Trust is a two-way street and it is sad to see some factions doing their utmost to poison any chance of trust in the future.
The coming weeks are not going to be any more pleasant for all of us. I just hope that the matter will be resolved soon and then we can all start the difficult process of building bridges!
I did not say that there is lack of harmony on my flights - and if you had flown with me I am certain you would agree!!
It is about balance! I have stated many times that the vast majority of cabin crew do a good job, but all I am saying is that there are still some real bad eggs. Whether or not they went on strike is immaterial in the way that I treat crew. I always try and treat people the way I would like to be treated myself. That policy has worked very well over many, many years!!
This debate is NOT about pilots versus cabin crew - no matter that some people seem intent on making it so.
I believe that this dispute started purely because bassa reps did not want to lose their power, and their over-stated ability to affect the operation. Alas, it now also appears to be about a lack of trust from a group of people towards their management. Trust is a two-way street and it is sad to see some factions doing their utmost to poison any chance of trust in the future.
The coming weeks are not going to be any more pleasant for all of us. I just hope that the matter will be resolved soon and then we can all start the difficult process of building bridges!
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BAALLtheway,
Of course I don't think those jobs are unskilled anymore than I think cabin crews job is unskilled. My point was that people keep on saying that the cabin crew job is unskilled and we should think ourselves lucky to have a job.
Constantly we are being told, on this thread only I will add, that in this day and age we should only expect to work for a couple of years before moving on because our job is only worth low wages and it is not a career anymore.
I was just using examples of other jobs that have the same entry level educational qualifications and wondered if it would be acceptable to say they were unskilled and you should only aspire to have your jobs for a couple of years to save BA all those pension costs etc. and that none of them can be a career either. I don't feel that myself, I feel the complete opposite, I was saying it to show, some of the posters on this thread, how unpleasant their posts sound and how unacceptable that kind of attitude is. I was being sarcastic so to speak.
I think all working people contribute to our airline and our country and we all have a vital job to do. I think if you reread it you might realise what I was saying and it is the complete opposite to the way you have taken it.
Hope that clarifies that for you.
Added to say that I personally feel if quoting something someone says it's best practice to quote the whole sentence and not just a few select words that can be misinterpreted when taken out of the context of the sentence. Not having a go at you BAALLthway but I notice that Blue rib and other do it regularly and it changes what people meant.
Many thanks BG.
Of course I don't think those jobs are unskilled anymore than I think cabin crews job is unskilled. My point was that people keep on saying that the cabin crew job is unskilled and we should think ourselves lucky to have a job.
Constantly we are being told, on this thread only I will add, that in this day and age we should only expect to work for a couple of years before moving on because our job is only worth low wages and it is not a career anymore.
I was just using examples of other jobs that have the same entry level educational qualifications and wondered if it would be acceptable to say they were unskilled and you should only aspire to have your jobs for a couple of years to save BA all those pension costs etc. and that none of them can be a career either. I don't feel that myself, I feel the complete opposite, I was saying it to show, some of the posters on this thread, how unpleasant their posts sound and how unacceptable that kind of attitude is. I was being sarcastic so to speak.
I think all working people contribute to our airline and our country and we all have a vital job to do. I think if you reread it you might realise what I was saying and it is the complete opposite to the way you have taken it.
Hope that clarifies that for you.
Added to say that I personally feel if quoting something someone says it's best practice to quote the whole sentence and not just a few select words that can be misinterpreted when taken out of the context of the sentence. Not having a go at you BAALLthway but I notice that Blue rib and other do it regularly and it changes what people meant.
Many thanks BG.
Last edited by Betty girl; 20th Jan 2011 at 23:06.