BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

[PC767]

Col White, my collective bargaining rights lie with (for better or worse) Bassa. My point was Woodley should have agreed with Bassa before shaking hands with Walsh.

As it happened, Bassa were prepared to put the last proposal to cabin crew, but would not recommend something which withdrew fundamental rights of workers. Unite therefore saw no point in running a ballot. Neither should we forget that a stipulation of Walsh was if any of the unions involved refused to recommend the offer, he would withdraw it.


PS, Happy new year to all.

[Right Engine]

OK a retraction is in order or at least a 'clarification'.

Whenever pilots (particularly Captains) are asked to work outside their agreements, on most occasions when considering the needs of their customers, crew and themselves, they usually choose the option to work outside their agreement to the mutual benefit of all parties. Our Union have no problem with this and unsurprisingly neither do our management. In fact they usually write us a letter thanking us for our 'flexibility'.

Cabin crew have this paradoxical situation that despite their wanting to work beyond their 'contractual obligation', for the reasons stated above, but their managers (DOM's) say that they can't. WTF? As far as the CAA are concerned, you stick within their legal limits and feel certain you have sufficient levels of alertness to carry out your role then all is legal.

Why can I, a Captain, work 2 hours longer than you because I'm working to discretional scheme limits but you, by order of your managers, can't because they apply your 'industrial agreement' as if it was inscribed in law. It isn't! It is guidance for you as an individual that shapes how your work is rostered. Once you are doing it for real, only scheme limits should apply in reality. That is how EVERY other airline works.


Put simply,

CAA (Scheme)= Legal obligation
Industrial = Guidance

Pilots can do it why not cabin crew? Do you want to be thought of as independent minded, customer focussed professionals or do you want to be managed over every facet of your role like children? If you prefer the first option then someone needs to educate your DOM's!

I do however apologize for belittling any aspect that the DOM's provide to support crew in other areas.

[Right Engine]

And finally I have had personal experience of 4 down route cancellations caused by cabin crew hours issues enforced by DOM's on a cabin crew that were each time unanimous in their belief that they would have preferred to work to Scheme limits. The HOTAC and rebooking costs must have come to close to 6 figures!

All because of the paradoxical operational interpretation of your 'agreement' by DOM's.

I genuinely do not understand what they are trying to achieve with this method of management.

[Phfelix]

I work for BA on the WW fleet. I'm quite junior, usually being at the bottom of the list. Before joining BA I worked for a charter airline in the UK and an airline in the Middle East.

It makes me very sad to read about all of this. BA cabin crew have no idea how lucky they are. Even with working with less crew onboard, they are the best paid crew in the UK and they have extremely good benefits. Working for BA is not anywhere near working for any other companty. Working for a UK charter airline, or down in the Middle East, is very hard work. Very long days, not really good pay, really no union representation, especially down in the Middle East.

I'm very junior on the WW fleet. I usually end up working in CW because the more senior crew seem to avoid that cabin now since imposition last year. But, I love my job more than anything and I love to serve our customers. Many of us crew do.

I hope this message gets through to all the striking crew.

My name has been spread since March that I worked through the strikes. I never thought a strike would be the solution as there was never really any reason for it. It never seems to go wrong either as I'm always seem to be working with striking crew. We used to have a really good solidarity and crew would socialise with eachother. But since the strikes earlier this year I have been faced with ignorance, backstabbing and crew not talking to me on flights or downroute. Our flight crew have been really good as I have always talked to them prior briefing since the strikes explaining the situation.

Realise what you're doing. A friend of mind recently did a 9 day BKK/SYD and none of the cabin crew talked to her except the flight crew.

I love my job, and many of us do, but I can assure that I'm always crying before always going into work because of the actions from some of you. Why? Because I'm scared of the actions by some of you. I'm even considering leaving BA and have went to several job interviews.

[fly12345]

Phfelix, dont leave we need people like you.
happy new year!!

[ottergirl]

Phfelix
Welcome to Pprune, I am glad you found us because it might help you feel less alone. The chances are that on each of these unpleasant trips you had, there were other people who came to work but were not strong enough to admit it. You can't make ignorant people talk to you, and actually do you want them to? It will get better over time, particularly once it is all sorted and in the meantime find support wherever you can, be it flight crew, CSDs, other crew. A great many CSD's came in to work, even on WW! I am on short-haul so not much use on a trip but if you want to meet up and chat in CRC then I'm (and some others on here) happy to do so. PM me if you'd like that.
Happy new year!
Ottergirl

[ottergirl]

I genuinely do not understand what they are trying to achieve with this method of management.

Right Engine
They are trying to fulfill the terms of their employment as dictated by British Airways. If they stick rigidly to the agreement it is because that is what they are employed to do. You are assuming that BA gave them a choice which is not the case. If the company wants more flexibility then they will change the system but in the meantime the DOMs, like many of us mere employees, are not employed to make up their own minds so your beef is with the company and not the DOMs.

I suspect that historically the reason BA has told them to stick to the rules is so they don't have the CC unions kicking off so potentially this all could be open for change.

[Betty girl]

I'll second that.
I have been pm'd by other unhappy crew and gone for a coffee in the CRC and it does help.
There really are more people that worked than didn't but people are scared to say so, especially the main crew.
I know there is a list of crew that worked going around (and I expect my name is on it) but just keep your head up, this WILL be over soon.

Have you got a good manager, mine is great and I unload on her regularly. Try and seek her or him out and have a chat.

Don't leave because you will miss it. Wait a while before making a rash decision.

[hula]

Hi Phfelix,

Don't despair...I am a CSD. I worked through the strikes. As Ottergirl has said, would you want to socialise with ignorant people anyway?

The majority of crew I have flown with since this sorry debacle have continued to be professional and respectful. Remember this is your job NOT your life so don't let it have any impact on that.

You are entitled to an opinion, as is everyone else, and people have to respect that. Keep smiling, work hard and be proud of yourself.

As you pointed out, BA crew have a comfortable life. We are well renumerated compared to other carriers.

We do however have restricting, antiquated working practices compared to our competitors. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed these for many years (and with the new proposal will continue to do so!!) however I also do realise that we as a community need to change. We need to become more flexible. We need to engage with the company to find mutually beneficial 'tweaks' that will offer us a win-win to our customers, BA and crew.

For many years, we have been in a situation whereby previous weak BA management have created an environment where the union have had the power. This must change. I firmly believe that BA are not out to bust the Union. Come on, the LT can't negotiate with 12,000 crew. They need a representing body to engage with. What I do believe is that BA are determined to shift the power from the Union back to them. Why should the Union have the final say on things like product enhancements? Our competitors are just laughing at us as they invest in their products and sail right past!!

Unfortunately, alot of crew can't see furthur than the end of their noses and appreciate the bigger picture...the big world outside. And that big world is ugly!! I recount stories to my non-flying friends (hot towels, window blinds) and they laugh...out loud... then stare at me in disbelief!!

On a final note, has anyone been watching the TV programme 'The Savoy'? A world class. premium brand and delivering consistently excellent service. Its strict but the staff are motivated, love their jobs and constantly strive to go the extra mile! The managers are constantly giving direct developmental feedback yet this doesn't impact on working relationships...it actually builds respect....something I feel our community lacks sometimes.

Happy New Year

[Phfelix]

Happy New Year to you too!

Thanks for the great response! It's a really good forum. Unlike other forums where's it a bit like one-way.

Can I just say that our flight crew and VCC have been fantastic? I don't think that you're stealing our work. They have agreed to cost savings and want the company to succeed. I do, and many others as well. If BASSA and Amicus had negotiated in the first place we never would have been in this mess. They are the reason to all of this and why there's such a gap between striking and non-striking crew, cabin crew and flight crew, cabin crew and the rest of the people in BA.

I don't know what's gone with rostering as I always seem to be working with striking crew but my next trip is an MIA and they have VCC on it. I'm actually looking forward to it as I know I won't be lonely. Since March I have relied on our flight crew, which I don't mind as they've been great to me.

My name has been spread for many months. I always come into work with a stomach ache. Maybe that's why crew are ignoring me.

But I love my job more than anything else. I would have given out hot towels but I can remember many flights where our CSD asked us to, but crew wearing Bassa lanyards etc, refused. If you did they would give you nasty looks, backstab you in the galley when you went out in the cabin and never speak to you again. It takes less than 2 minutes to do it. You don't need another crew onboard to do it.

Compare us to SIA, EK, EY, QR, AF, QF etc. They work their crew very hard. They don't demand another crew member to another additional task. I worked for a company in the Middle East and sometimes we operated three below standard because there were no crew available yet they demanded a full service. We managed. The striking crew at BA have no idea how lucky they are.

I want BA to succeed. I love my job. I love serving our customers. I just don't know how to cope.

[JUAN TRIPP]

I suspect that historically the reason BA has told them to stick to the rules is so they don't have the CC unions kicking off so potentially this all could be open for change.

Ottergirl, I feel you are spot on here. I remember during the Gate Gourmet dispute, we were put in a hotel on sby 10 miles from LHR. I literally lived down the road from the hotel but the DOM's said PLEASE do not go home as we don't want any problems with the unions, and should stick to what has been agreed' IE; stay at the hotel no matter what. What was farciscal, was that there were crew crying out for hotel rooms as everything had been canx, but couldn't be given them because the likes of me HAD to have one So there has no doubt in the past been managers/DOM's etc who have literally been scared to death of upsetting Bassa.


I want to make it very clear that we need agreements in place, or else it would be anarchy, but we also need flexibility in the event of bad weather/disputes etc, something Bassa have not been good at in the past IMO


PS wecome PHfelix. You will find us a pretty honest bunch on here as long as you stick to the facts!! Don't worry, this will be over soon. My personal hope is for Duncan Holley to press the nuclear button again, and go for a 2-3 month strike. That will sort the men from the boys.

Hula - great post. Sums it up nicely

Winston smith

In the future this will all change. Bassa will not be dictating product changes anymore. I am part of a team that are looking into changes
to the onboard product . BA wants crew who are experianced, streetwise, know what they are talking about etc, to move things forward. Not a Bassa rep who hardly ever flies, and who is destructive towards the company rather than constructive. We were told by Bill francis that the days of Bassa DICTATING these types of changes are gone. All I can say is that its long overdue.

Finally as an aside, I flew with a lovely crew member the other day who flew with Duncan Holley a couple of years ago. Quite simply said he was THE worst supervisor he had ever met. Absolutely NO idea what he was diong, and was on the phone before and during boarding attending to his union matters apparently

[Beagle9]

Ottergirl is right re the DOMs.

They are instructed by the company to stick to both Sceme and industrial.

Indeed, if they inadvertently break industrial, I believe, it's discussed at monthly steering meetings between mangers and union reps, so as to avoid a re-occurance. The company does try to stick to agreements, even though it might not like some of them.

In other words the DOMs are just doing their job, as asked by BA and doing it very well under a lot of pressure, most of the time.

However, I for one, would much rather move to a system similar to the one the pilots have, regarding being more flexible on industrial limits off-schedule.

It has been possible to do his in the past, however, by asking the DOMs to request dispensation from the unions to extend beyond industrial limits.
The unions will want to know if all crew are in agreement before agreeing, but I have used this in the past and we've been able to avoid a great deal of inconvenience for the pax AND the crew.

However, if the situation arose now, things would be extremely difficult.

Firstly, with the present mood, would all crew agree? Secondly, I'm not even sure whether that line of communication between the DOMs and the reps currently exists. (Anyone know?) Thirdly even if it does, would the unions agree?

Frankly, I dread the situation arising. I think the way I would deal with it is, if the unions are uncontactable, is to see if there are enough crew willing to go with it, to at least operate at legal min crew, and leave those that won't play ball behind.

Much though I disagree strongly with the current agreement on off-schedule working, I am loath to simple run rough-shod over it, otherwise, what point is there in having any agreements? It's the agreements that are at fault (And need to be changed, to more flexible ones), NOT the people applying them, neither the DOMs nor the poor SCCMs who have to handle a very difficult situation.

Anyone else (especially other SCCMs) got any thoughts on that?

[flapsforty]

For the benefit of the new posters on this thread; here on PPRuNe we tend to use the definitions commonly used in the airline industry around the world:

Cockpit crew = pilots
Cabin crew = flight attendants


Together they form a crew:

• definition 1: all the personnel working aboard a ship or an airplane.
• definition 2: a group of people working together to perform a joint function.

******************

Bad mouthing of others, name calling and blanket statements about the perceived personalities of other groups is not productive and not welcome here.
e.g. : would you want to socialise with ignorant people anyway.


Robust, adult discussion of facts and opinions is the method we use here. The aim is a better understanding of all facts and of each otherīs motives and points of view.

[Litebulbs]

I'm afraid to say it's all true re. the above! We are literally working to the bare minimum rest. Luckily I don't have a Nairobi on my roster, but I do know of others who have it like you mentioned Betty. We can only hope that crew are feeding back there rosters to their managers to look at because, as you say, this kind of rostering really can't go on long term. I have 143 hours rostered in January, so I am very concerned about reaching 900 hours pretty quickly!!!! I love being on Mixed Fleet, but something does need to be done about the rostering as i know a lot of crew are pretty unhappy with it.

This is Welshboy1982's post on the other cabin crew thread. Now you may think is DH revisited again, which is a common conclusion of this site, to any questioning of the employer in question, but it would have been the longest plant ever, if you review the posting history.

Now looking from the sidelines, you would have to be a tad naive not to think that the these conditions of work could be the end result of the current management teams plans. Maybe that is why the dispute is still ongoing. It would appear that the employer has answered the questions of the employees for its long term aims, by making the conditions of this new operation so bad.

[Juan Tugoh]

I have 143 hours rostered in January

I call BS. There are several absolute limits in scheme, one is 900 per year. There is another one which is 100 hours per 28 days. Here is the reference:

during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of
the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 hours; (This means
that on the 28th day a flight crew member may depart on a single
sector flight, and may complete that sector, even though at the
end of the flight the total flying hours completed in 28 days will
exceed 100 hours. Consequently the flight crew member cannot
then continue to operate as a flight crew member on any
subsequent sectors during that day) or
• during the period of 12 months, expiring at the end of the
previous month exceeds 900 hours.

So someone is making things up in an attempt to stir things up. This is a tactic that BASSA has repeatedly used throughout this dispute; remember the planes parked at Cardiff or the ones doing circuits or the judge's skiing holiday?

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Juan Tugoh

So someone is making things up in an attempt to stir things up. This is a tactic that BASSA has repeatedly used throughout this dispute; remember the planes parked at Cardiff or the ones doing circuits or the judge's skiing holiday?

As I said, check the posting history. As to facts and figures -

"The two periods of industrial action affecting British Airways services caused an estimated net loss of 200,000 passengers across the UK airports, of which 180,000 were at Heathrow."

BAA: Official Site for BAA Airports

[StudentInDebt]

That quote refers to Flight Crew flying time limits, these are ANO limitations and do not apply to Cabin Crew. Cabin Crew hours are limited by the Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations in the first instance which has absolute limits of 2000 hours in 12 months not exceeding 900 hours flight time. The duty hour limit for a BA Cabin Crew member over a 4 week period is an average of 190 hours and an absolute maximum of 210 hours so this roster is well within what's allowed. *

That's not to say that it is a sustainable roster in the long-term, I've been told that about 4 or 5 years ago BA Cabin Crew employed at Gatwick had a change to their rostering designed to get more out of them. It did but at the expense of many crew reaching the 900 hour limit, being unable to fly and consequently crew shortages resulted. Much of BA's Gatwick program had to be sub-chartered to several operators (Astraeus and Monarch spring to mind) for several months, the problem was compounded by crew resigning as they couldn't afford to live on the Gatwick basic wage.

* Just remembered that there is a seperate document covering Mixed Fleet Scheme rules, the duty hours applicable to them maybe different and probably greater!

[oh-oh]

Hi Juan,

I posted this on the other thread:

JPM's have an absolute limit of 100 flying hours in a 28 day period.

I believe the Mixed Fleet contract allows:
180 duty hours in February

192 duty hours in all other Months

[Wirbelsturm]

This often causes confusion.

Flying hours are those spent on the aircraft from push back to engine shut down. Max 900 hours a year, 100 flying hours a calendar month.

Duty hours are those spent from check-in to check-out and also include standby and home standby, non flying duties and any other rostered courses. The duty limits, as posted above, are significantly higher than the flying hours.

To roster 143 flying hours in a month would be illegal. To roster 143 duty hours would be busy but not illegal. In order to achieve a maximum flying hours month including standby days of 8-12 duty hours a day 143 would not be unreasonable as a planning excercise. Very tiring though. (P.S. I have just achieved, as flight crew, close to 100 flying hours and a 135 credit hour month due disruption. It isn't that rare at the moment especially in times of disruption.)

[Litebulbs]

CAP371

In the above document, the scheme for large airlines has the 100 hr limit on flight hours for flight crew, but exempts cabin crew from the limit, if I read it correctly -

The limitations which shall be applied to cabin crew are those applicable to flight crew members contained in paragraphs 6 to 23, but with the following differences:

a) A flying duty period can be 1 hour longer than that permitted for flight crew. The FDP and limits set on early starts for cabin crew shall be based on the time at which the flight crew report for their flying duty period, but that FDP will start at the report time of the cabin crew.

b) For cabin crew the minimum rest period which will be provided before undertaking a flying duty period shall be:

i) at least as long as the preceding duty period less 1 hour; or
ii) 11 hours; whichever is the greater.

c) The combined sum of standby time and subsequent FDP can be 1 hour longer than that permitted to flight crew.

d) The maximum duty hours for cabin crew shall not exceed:

60 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 65 hours when a rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to unforeseen delays.

105 hours in any 14 consecutive days.

210 hours in any 28 consecutive days.

e) The annual and 28 day limits on flying hours appertaining to flight crew need not be applied.

f) The limits relating to two pilot flight crew long range operations do not apply.

The CAA gives interesting reading on enforcement -

Working Time Regulation | Operations & Airworthiness | Safety Regulation