BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

[The Blu Riband]

we would have stayed as 'main crew' with none of the responsibilities and no accountability

Ottergirl, you said it!
trouble is........ there are 100's, perhaps 1000's, of crew who have done 15 - maybe even 25 - years, who have no chance of becoming csd or even a purser. Some of whom are very competent. They often become totally stale and disenfranchised.

Maybe a system could be introduced whereby if no promotion is achieved within 10 years an alternative job or career should be sought.

[Snas]

Maybe a system could be introduced whereby if no promotion is achieved within 10 years an alternative job or career should be sought.

Perhaps a merit based promotion system would help with that instead of the current perform on the day and say the words they want to hear system currently used.

Merit monitoring being something else BASSA have rejected in the past isn’t it?

[ottergirl]

there are 100's, perhaps 1000's, of crew who have done 15 - maybe even 25 - years, who have no chance of becoming csd or even a purser. Some of whom are very competent.

Many of whom have no wish to progress. They are happy with what they do, are comfortable with their choice and are very good at it. Knowing yourself and being comfortable with your own limitations is a rare attribute! I know of someone who became a Purser, did all the preparation and passed the interview but when it came to doing the job for real did not like it. To quote her "I used to look forward to coming to work and now I don't", she went back to 'main crew' and was much happier.

It is a conundrum that is not an airline one alone. Motivating and inspiring staff who have no wish to progress any further. I remember a group of managers from Finnair coming to Waterside on a fact sharing mission on exactly that project. I am sure there are retailers, offices, Police stations, hospitals, etc all considering the same thing. It is not a lack of ambition which makes one or two of our crew such a pain in the proverbial!

[Colonel White]

One of the biggest problems that BA has faced over the years has been the fact that pay increases have been linked to length of service as opposed to performance. I'm not having a pop at cabin crew on this, it is endemic throughout the airline. You could pick up a copy of the pay scale. work out which spinal point you were on and calculate how long it would be before you were on top of scale. If you could do compound interest, you could almost work out what top of scale would be by the time you hit it. All you had to do was keep your nose clean and it was pretty much a racing certainty. There are very few organisations outside of central and local government that operate in this way. Most companies will provide a base uplift in line with inflation, but anything over that is awarded for performance. BA doesn't have a bonus system for non-management grades (I lie, there is one for APPG and IT staff) so it is very hard to accurately target and reward good performers.I'm convinced this is one of the reasons that folk like the BASSA executive simply don't understand why CEOs can get hefty bonuses. They just have no idea about performance related pay because they have never been exposed to it.

The other problem with linking pay increases to length of service is that it makes it very easy for people to be quite happy to chug along doing just enough to get by. There is no incentive to do a bit more, because at the end of the day it won't be reflected in your pay. Very easy to get into a rut. It's fine provided that the business stays the same, but businesses have a nasty habit of changing. If you get into a rut, you tend to be less inclined to enjoy change - it upsets your routine. So when you have a few hefty changes go through people, understandably, get upset. Trouble is that the changes are necessary.

[Litebulbs]

Colonel

So how would you incentivise 12000 employees, based on three grades, who generally do not fly together, in a fair and transparent manner? Are you talking about duty free sales and a bonus for not going sick?

[Ancient Observer]

Litebulbs.
It is a doddle. Easy, simples, and hundreds of private sector companies do it every day.
it isn't always completely "fair", but then nothing in this world is completely fair.
Quite simply, performance targets/behaviours/survey feedback etc are set. Good ones get it, not so good ones do not.

Great Co.s fire 5% to 10% of their low performers each year. BA have not done this with CC and should have done so 20 years ago.
Then, we customers would not be faced with the heritage CC attitudes that some of the CC from lhr produce.

[ottergirl]

Ancient Observer
If it was a doddle, it would be done. Having an absentee workforce makes it very difficult to quantify and measure performance targets unless you are going to allow the managers to fly around monitoring their crew. Something which is very expensive and which BA are not prepared to do.

Quite simply, performance targets/behaviours/survey feedback etc are set.

Which of course they already are! But someone has to assess whether they are met.

Of course, it should fall to the CSD and Pursers to measure the main crew but they can't be doing that if they are busy dolling out food in a different cabin. The feedback we get from our customers, while useful for measuring trends, is not objective and specific enough to manage individuals. The customers perception of the service they receive is often influenced by the whole travel experience so the crew feedback suffers as a result of an ATC delay for example.

As a CSD I get an annual appraisal (about every two years) but it is largely a ticky box exercise where I tell what brilliant things I've done and my manager records it for posterity. How would she know if its the truth? She wouldn't because she wasn't there! You can not manage people if you aren't in their workplace!

Can you think of another workgroup with similar circumstances? Not so easy and simples is it?

[Yellow Pen]

360 degree appraisal is a fairly straightforward system to assess performance. You are assessed by two peers, one superior and, if possible, one junior colleague. Questions can easily be structured to remove the influence of events outside the control of the individual, such as the aforementioned ATC delay. It isn't rocket science and it works in numerous other blue chip companies, even those with absentee workforces (I last saw it used in a mobile sales force). I know managers within IFCE have been working on a performance monitoring system, which I believe is being rolled out on Mixed Fleet. BA have never genuinely performance managed cabin crew, and you can count on the fingers of one hand how many crew have been demoted for poor performance over the years. However I can certainly think of vested interest who would object to a system of performance management. Can you imagine BASSAs response to 360 appraisal given that pilots would be required to assess a CSD/Pursers performance on board the aircraft? I can think of a few CSDs who would be receiving some considerable developmental feedback.

[ottergirl]

360 degree appraisal is a fairly straightforward system to assess performance. You are assessed by two peers, one superior and, if possible, one junior colleague.

This is the system we currently use but the feedback is about that day so is only a snapshot. With respect Yellow pen, how do you anticipate a pilot being able to assess all aspects of a CSD's performance? Surely they should be flying the plane and not skulking about the galley and cabin? Certainly, we can and do ask them for feedback on the part of our performance that affects them but I really do not see them being able to give any constructive feedback on what constitutes the larger part of our role. There would not be any objection to them offering developmental feedback, from the union or otherwise, because it already forms part of the current CSD assessment process.

As an aside, when I hand out the current feedback forms for my annual appraisal to our Captains, I find that the feedback I am given is rarely insightful or of any real value as our pilots are simply not used to giving feedback outside the cockpit environment. I am sure there are exceptions but that has been my experience so far.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Ancient Observer

Great Co.s fire 5% to 10% of their low performers each year. BA have not done this with CC and should have done so 20 years ago.

Hmm, great companies fire 10% of their staff each year? I have never read that anywhere; can you point me to you reference?

[MissM]

Far-Ted

VCC or MF crew should not be used if legacy crew are sat at home in my opinion. VCC should be doing whatever they were recruited to do in the first place. We have enough crew to cover the operation and other people should not be taking our jobs.

Yotty

Look at the number of crew onboard we have lost over the years. As an example, BASSA dealt very efficiently with BA after 9/11.

Juan Tripp

BASSA have agreed to a reduction of the 48 hour rule yet not in place as nothing have been agreed with BA. I agree that it's an outdated agreement and most of us disapprove with it.

Colonel White

I think you will find that the vast majority of cabin crew have been with BA for a very long time.

Again, we went on strike because we have not been able to reach an agreement with BA. It's simple as that.

Us being responsible for more lost days due to sickness could have something to do with that we cannot work, for instance when having a cold. If you work at Waterside for instance there's nothing stopping you from coming into work if you have a cold.

Some 7000 cabin crew went on strike. There will always be people, who are in favour of if industrial action, but won't actually strike themselves as they rely on others to do it on their behalf. Our CEO has done an excellent job splitting the workforce between cabin crew and other work groups. Never in the history of the company have so many people been suspended and dismissed. He has created a sensitive atmosphere forcing us to work with VCC against our will. We have been put on the frontline and in a sensitive position where it doesn't take much before you are accused of bullying or harassing someone.

Are you implying that you should never take industrial action regardless of how you're being treated just because you love your job?

[Yellow Pen]

Ottergirl - the pilots will not have to assess every aspect of a CSDs performance. That's why you have 360 degree appraisal, and use the multiple responses to form a composite view of the individuals overall performance. What they will assess is whether the CSD is proficient in their interactions with the flight crew. Pursers will assess whether the CSD is proficient in working with their peer supervisory grades. Junior crew will give their perceptions of the capabilites of the CSD in leading and motivating junior crew. It all comes through sensibly structured multiple choice questions with an option for explanatory comments. That way you avoid situations where "the feedback I am given is rarely insightful or of any real value". The information can, if necessary, be provided directly to a central collection point rather than returned directly to the individual. Perhaps it has occurred to you that the reason the feedback you have received in the past has been of little real value is not that "our pilots are simply not used to giving feedback outside the cockpit environment" but that the feedback is returned directly to you, immediately, for you to take issue with should you choose to do so?

[Litebulbs]

Yellow Pen

Would that sort of process flow back through the flight deck door? This is not trolling, I am interested in the process and how you would develop it (obviously without too much thread drift).

[MrBernoulli]

VCC or MF crew should not be used if legacy crew are sat at home in my opinion.

As you say, it is your "opinion", but the company doesn't need to account for that.

BASSA have agreed to a reduction of the 48 hour rule yet not in place as nothing have been agreed with BA.

So if BASSA haven't "agreed with BA", then "BASSA have agreed" with themselves? Not a surprise, really ......

I think you will find that the vast majority of cabin crew have been with BA for a very long time.

Because they know they couldn't possibly make easy money like that anywhere else?

Us being responsible for more lost days due to sickness could have something to do with that we cannot work, for instance when having a cold.

Those colds have an alarming habit of showing up around Henley Festival, Ascot race week, etc etc.

[Yellow Pen]

MissM:

Us being responsible for more lost days due to sickness could have something to do with that we cannot work, for instance when having a cold. If you work at Waterside for instance there's nothing stopping you from coming into work if you have a cold.

How then do you explain the much lower level of absence amongst flight crew, who have far more stringent fitness requirements, and who breathe exactly the same 'germ filled recirculated air' as you do?

Some 7000 cabin crew went on strike. There will always be people, who are in favour of if industrial action, but won't actually strike themselves as they rely on others to do it on their behalf.

Or 4900 if you believe BA, as I tend to do given that Unite don't even know how many members they have.

Our CEO has done an excellent job splitting the workforce between cabin crew and other work groups.

I beg to differ. Nothing the CEO has said or done has changed my opinion of cabin crew. Your unions shameless mud-slinging has turned most of the workforce against you, and the militant loudmouths have done the rest.

Never in the history of the company have so many people been suspended and dismissed.

Hyperbole. You've no figures to substantiate this.

He has created a sensitive atmosphere forcing us to work with VCC against our will.

Is there a clause in your contract that says you can dictate who you work with?

We have been put on the frontline and in a sensitive position where it doesn't take much before you are accused of bullying or harassing someone.

Don't talk about industrial action and you'll be fine. It isn't hard.

[ottergirl]

that the feedback is returned directly to you, immediately, for you to take issue with should you choose to do so?

Surely a BA captain, with all the responsibility that involves, should be able to deliver developmental feedback face to face in a timely and appropriate manner? I certainly have to do so both on-board the aircraft and in training. That does not wash as an excuse I'm afraid because sometimes we all have to stand up and be counted. As many CSD's are, like me, also involved in other areas of the business like training and recruitment, we are very used to receiving feedback so try it, you may be surprised!

Certainly there may be some value in your idea of giving the Captain a more involved form rather than the current motivational/developmental split form we use currently; I will suggest it to my manager for consideration.

Sadly I no longer fly with Pursers so their feedback is not an option any more. The main crew do fill in feedback forms but as I mentioned before, the problem is a lack of continuity. I could be the worst CSD on the fleet (I'm not by the way!) but if on that one day I raise my game then that is what will be reflected on the form. What is needed here is consistency and for that we need 'secret shoppers' or some hidden system of appraisal.

[Yellow Pen]

Litebulbs - Yes I'd expect the process to flow back through the flight deck. Examples of feedback that could go up the chain of command could be "Was information related to delays conveyed in a timely manner", "Did you feel supported in your work", "Do you feel the Captain led by example" "Did you feel any concerns you raised were treated seriously" and so on. It doesn't take much to structure some questions which cut to the nub of what makes effective teamwork on board and the non-tech skills which BA Flight Ops training department have been pushing for years provide a ready framework for such a structure.

Ottergirl - I don't doubt you are used to receiving feedback. However some of your colleagues display a distinctly less mature response to negative feedback and instead sulk for the remainder of the trip and spread dissent amongst the crew. I've seen it.

[ottergirl]

Feedback to the pilots! Now that would be a revolutionary idea. Quarter of a century in this company and I have never been asked what I thought of the Captain!

Yellow pen, 'timely' in this case would usually mean 'at the end of the trip!'

[Litebulbs]

Yellow Pen

I think ottergirl has used the right word in revolutionary, but it is a really interesting view. I might try it tomorrow, in an informal manner and report back.

[Far-Ted]

VCC or MF crew should not be used if legacy crew are sat at home in my opinion. VCC should be doing whatever they were recruited to do in the first place. We have enough crew to cover the operation and other people should not be taking our jobs.

Whilst I agree with your opinion unfortunately there is no mention in the DA about the use or not of VCC's, MF or temps.

Having said that BA were right to use long haul aircraft and MF crew on European routes to ensure as many of our passengers got home for Christmas. Legacy crew just do not offer enough flexibility even with the DA in force to operate these types of services.

It is due to this lack of flexibility that has forced BA to introduce MF and is caused purely by Bassa's refusal to negotiate over the last ten years or so.