British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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disproportionate?
BA has gone from 64000 employees to less than 36000 employees in the last 10 years. Many staff have had a 3 year pay freeze. I agree you, you are being treated disproportionately.
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Lady BA BA wrote:
That just about sums it up for me.
Other departments in BA are hurting but have accepted that costs have to be controlled, efficiency measures have to be implemented and that the company is in a very very competitive world and needs to either compete or bow out.
Would you concede that perhaps one group is currently out of step?
BA crew just want a fair deal that is not disproportionate to other departments in the company.
Other departments in BA are hurting but have accepted that costs have to be controlled, efficiency measures have to be implemented and that the company is in a very very competitive world and needs to either compete or bow out.
Would you concede that perhaps one group is currently out of step?
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Quite honestly he is a pathetic little man that views point scoring as more important than settling a costly dispute that he alone has escalated by his rhetoric and actions.
BA crew just want a fair deal that is not disproportionate to other departments in the company.
What will you do if BASSA get a better deal?
"You would enjoy the benefit of any pay or contractual changes that may be done in the future through the normal collective bargaining arrangement we have with Unite."
So, I would have my cake and eat it, thank you.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own view and not that of BA. I am fully aware of trolls, and BASSA reps, I simply post to disprove any absurd rantings, lest any crew member reading should be taken in by them.
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You would enjoy the benefit of any pay or contractual changes that may be done in the future through the normal collective bargaining arrangement we have with Unite.
After that, any offer will be inferior in some way or other.
To put it simply, just a question of when or whether you want to board the plane and that decision will determine where you will sit but bear in mind that you could be denied boarding.
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Just a small point of clarification for those who write and believe that the BAA deal, which has been accepted in principle, is worse than the deal rejected by BA cabin crew, ie, 2% pay rise v 3% pay rise.
It is a red herring. BA cabin crew have not asked for a payrise. They have accepted the need for cuts but not to the extent BA demand. The rest of BA's offer is poor, the payrises are a smoke screen, there appears to have been a belief that crew would jump at the chance, however most can see that a 3% gain now is will quickly become a much higher percent loss within the next few years.
I have no objection to BA/Walsh making excessive demands, Bassa play that game too. What seems to be missing here, and not at BAA, is compromise. It really is Walsh's way or no way.
It is a red herring. BA cabin crew have not asked for a payrise. They have accepted the need for cuts but not to the extent BA demand. The rest of BA's offer is poor, the payrises are a smoke screen, there appears to have been a belief that crew would jump at the chance, however most can see that a 3% gain now is will quickly become a much higher percent loss within the next few years.
I have no objection to BA/Walsh making excessive demands, Bassa play that game too. What seems to be missing here, and not at BAA, is compromise. It really is Walsh's way or no way.
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My letter regarding signing up to the Way Forward agreement clearly states......
"You are among more than 1100 of your cabin crew colleagues who have chosen to sign up to the offer - that's around 95% of non-union crew members."
95% is pretty good I'd say!
My future pay together with my terms and conditions are now secure......Don't know what the future holds for the Union members though!
"You are among more than 1100 of your cabin crew colleagues who have chosen to sign up to the offer - that's around 95% of non-union crew members."
95% is pretty good I'd say!
My future pay together with my terms and conditions are now secure......Don't know what the future holds for the Union members though!
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OK - I'll bite again.
Not had a pay rise for three years now.
You want to talk disproportionate? Go ahead.
More work/less people doing it/no pay rise.
My hourly rate has gone down in real terms due inflation and in actual terms as I don't get overtime and haven't had a bonus (that should compensate for overtime work) for three years either.
Unpaid leave and unpaid work.
Did I mention I'm VCC? And the way I'm feeling about things now - I'd do the job at weekends and using leave if I had to.
What are you giving-up LadyBA/Hector/Duncan or whoever you are calling yourself this week? Anything like the above?
Didn't think so.
No intelligent reasoning. No concise debating. No compromise.
I'm surprised WW bothered with you lot round the table for as long as he did if the above posts are representative of BASSA viewpoints.
Not had a pay rise for three years now.
You want to talk disproportionate? Go ahead.
More work/less people doing it/no pay rise.
My hourly rate has gone down in real terms due inflation and in actual terms as I don't get overtime and haven't had a bonus (that should compensate for overtime work) for three years either.
Unpaid leave and unpaid work.
Did I mention I'm VCC? And the way I'm feeling about things now - I'd do the job at weekends and using leave if I had to.
What are you giving-up LadyBA/Hector/Duncan or whoever you are calling yourself this week? Anything like the above?
Didn't think so.
No intelligent reasoning. No concise debating. No compromise.
I'm surprised WW bothered with you lot round the table for as long as he did if the above posts are representative of BASSA viewpoints.
I'm surprised no-one has said it so far, so I'll step up .....
Lady BA BA, has been here many times before, under other pseudonyms - don't you recognise the anti-BA rhetoric? The WW 'bashing'? Keep it up, and I'm sure the mods will be on to Lady BA BA .... again.
Lady BA BA, has been here many times before, under other pseudonyms - don't you recognise the anti-BA rhetoric? The WW 'bashing'? Keep it up, and I'm sure the mods will be on to Lady BA BA .... again.
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Please be advised that Lady BA BA's access to this thread is temporarily suspended pending confirmation of airline employment.
Therefore please refrain from posting further comment to this user until you see further posts from him/her: This will be your indication that credentials have been confirmed. This post will be removed at that time.
Therefore please refrain from posting further comment to this user until you see further posts from him/her: This will be your indication that credentials have been confirmed. This post will be removed at that time.
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I was also glad when confirmation of my offer arrived through the post last week.
One thing that Willie Walsh has always maintained is that there would be always one offer for everyone.
That is Willie Walsh's way and not a bad way.
I sincerely hope that some of my colleagues who were misled by BASSA will be given the opportunity to accept this offer.
PC767,
You say what's missing is a compromise in comparison to BAA. I think Willie Walsh has compromised, return of Staff Travel and the same offer for everyone. Isn't that a compromise?
All BASSA have to do is sign on the dotted line or else we'll see Mixed Fleet getting bigger rather rapidly.
By the way, were you in a position to accept the offer?
One thing that Willie Walsh has always maintained is that there would be always one offer for everyone.
That is Willie Walsh's way and not a bad way.
I sincerely hope that some of my colleagues who were misled by BASSA will be given the opportunity to accept this offer.
PC767,
You say what's missing is a compromise in comparison to BAA. I think Willie Walsh has compromised, return of Staff Travel and the same offer for everyone. Isn't that a compromise?
All BASSA have to do is sign on the dotted line or else we'll see Mixed Fleet getting bigger rather rapidly.
By the way, were you in a position to accept the offer?
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It is a red herring. BA cabin crew have not asked for a payrise. They have accepted the need for cuts but not to the extent BA demand. The rest of BA's offer is poor, the payrises are a smoke screen, there appears to have been a belief that crew would jump at the chance, however most can see that a 3% gain now is will quickly become a much higher percent loss within the next few years.
"To the extent BA demand?" For the benefit of those that have forgotten what all of this was initially about - one crew member off a plane. That's the "extent BA demanded".
"The rest of the BA offer is poor?" In exchange for one crew member off a plane, I (one of the 1100 copper-bottomed contracted crew
) have a 2 yr pay deal, a top up payment incase my allowances should fall, and a guarantee to my existing t&c's. Seems like more than a fair exchange to me.A 3% gain now is extremely valuable. According to tonights' UK news headlines, inflation is stuck high at 3.1% and unlikely to subside for some time. The news also reported how many people have the added burden of pay freezes for two years and will therefore struggle to meet the high inflation costs and will feel the pinch for sometime to come. I am extremely grateful that my copper-bottomed deal protects me against the UK's high inflation costs.
What have you got to protect you against high inflation, PC767? BASSA?
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Odd
I'm finding it quite bizarre that in the last few days, bassa members who I've directly challenged, have been saying (with quite strong conviction) that they are going to get a better deal than any of the 1100+. This is the first time in all of this that any of them have managed this degree of vague clarity.
Not being privvy to the internal communications of bassa, I'd certainly be intrigued to know just how this mindset has come about. Those who've told me (and many have done so in no uncertain terms) have been unable to go on to clarify just how this "better" deal is to be achieved. Many of them actually seem totally unaware of just what the next move by bassa will be, but are apparently quite content to continue donations of c£16pm for this (and I use the following word in the vaguest of terms) representation.
Odd.
Not being privvy to the internal communications of bassa, I'd certainly be intrigued to know just how this mindset has come about. Those who've told me (and many have done so in no uncertain terms) have been unable to go on to clarify just how this "better" deal is to be achieved. Many of them actually seem totally unaware of just what the next move by bassa will be, but are apparently quite content to continue donations of c£16pm for this (and I use the following word in the vaguest of terms) representation.
Odd.
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Hiflyer.
I concur, 3% payrise is a good offer, but as you state, that is not what this dispute has been about. Nobody ever challeneged BA for more money.
Now, should the PCCC really want to show it is worthwhile, how about
a) stop hiding, and
b) produce an alternative, compromise, offer which, would be acceptable to all sides and could form the basis of an end to the dispute. As a workers organisation, so far, all you've shown you're effect at is stating yes, yes, yes! This, I know, is a refreshing change from no,no,no, but is totally ineffective.
I concur, 3% payrise is a good offer, but as you state, that is not what this dispute has been about. Nobody ever challeneged BA for more money.
Now, should the PCCC really want to show it is worthwhile, how about
a) stop hiding, and
b) produce an alternative, compromise, offer which, would be acceptable to all sides and could form the basis of an end to the dispute. As a workers organisation, so far, all you've shown you're effect at is stating yes, yes, yes! This, I know, is a refreshing change from no,no,no, but is totally ineffective.
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PC676 Hi Flyer
I think PC676 might be onto something about this dispute being more than about money. Slightly off at a tangent I know, but I was recently in a Parent Governors meeting talking about how to retain a hemorrhage of talented teachers leaving a somewhat 'challenging' primary. Offers of more money made not a jot of difference. Status was very important . . . and I defy anyone to say that they don't mind there status sinking . . . Trust was very important . . . they were given time off in school hours to lesson plan. Infact anything but money made the difference because they love their jobs. I know this example isn't exactly comparable with CC. I do wonder whether it wouldn't have been more effective from the outset to offer EVEN better travel perks, EVEN more flexibility in working hours and such like and made BA a totally awesome place to work. Just a thought.
I think PC676 might be onto something about this dispute being more than about money. Slightly off at a tangent I know, but I was recently in a Parent Governors meeting talking about how to retain a hemorrhage of talented teachers leaving a somewhat 'challenging' primary. Offers of more money made not a jot of difference. Status was very important . . . and I defy anyone to say that they don't mind there status sinking . . . Trust was very important . . . they were given time off in school hours to lesson plan. Infact anything but money made the difference because they love their jobs. I know this example isn't exactly comparable with CC. I do wonder whether it wouldn't have been more effective from the outset to offer EVEN better travel perks, EVEN more flexibility in working hours and such like and made BA a totally awesome place to work. Just a thought.
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This dispute is not about money. This dispute is not about more perks. It is about BASSA wanting to control the operation. Now they can't.
SOS - 2 points in response to your post.
a. More "perks" were offered in October last year. Shares, bonus option and one extra free ticket per year were offered in one deal. BASSA did not even put it to the membership, and to this day many crew remain unaware of this last ditch attempt by BA to strike a deal (excuse the pun).
b. If BASSA had negotiated successfully, I believe we could have been in line for better terms. Removing one crew member was a huge saving for BA, and had it been done cleverly, we could have gained something in return. Not least of all, some hard and fast securities surrounding Mixed Fleet which would have gained a lot of trust and stability in our community. Mixed Fleet was off the table at one point and that would have been an excellent time to negotiate hard.
PC767
The PCCC are not hiding. We are actively campaigning to get people to realise that there is a better way to do business with BA. The PCCC is not about the people who run it, it is about the ideaology, it's about changing the mindset of "no, no, no" and it's about doing things professionally in the interests of the crew, the customer and the company. Even if we said who we were, how many people would know us? How many would care? How many can name any/all of the current reps?
We have purposely avoided getting embroiled in the dispute - which would have happened if there had been names attached to it. This isn't personal, it isn't about who said what, it's about what they said.
By doing it this way, BASSA have been unable to attack us. They have made no challenges to our ideas or suggestions, presumably because they can't. They have been unable to make personal attacks, which they would have undoubtedly done. This is about ideas, about business, about change. And because BASSA haven't been able to make it personal, they cannot dispute what we are saying. Their only attack has been to call us managers; you only have to log on to our forum to see clear evidence that we are not. The fact that BASSA have not been able to challenge our ideology indicates to us that they have no argument. That, to us, is success.
We haven't said yes to everything. BA offered to put 184 crew back on. We ran a thread on our forum and most people didn't want 184 crew back on, so we stated this fact on our flyers. Many of our members wrote to BA and said that. Instead we got a pay rise. That, according to our members, was a success.
Most importantly by setting up the PCCC we have made BA aware that many crew do not support BASSA. BA have now made history by making an offer to non-union members. That, to us, is a success.
What success stories can BASSA lay claim to in this dispute?
SOS - 2 points in response to your post.
a. More "perks" were offered in October last year. Shares, bonus option and one extra free ticket per year were offered in one deal. BASSA did not even put it to the membership, and to this day many crew remain unaware of this last ditch attempt by BA to strike a deal (excuse the pun).
b. If BASSA had negotiated successfully, I believe we could have been in line for better terms. Removing one crew member was a huge saving for BA, and had it been done cleverly, we could have gained something in return. Not least of all, some hard and fast securities surrounding Mixed Fleet which would have gained a lot of trust and stability in our community. Mixed Fleet was off the table at one point and that would have been an excellent time to negotiate hard.
PC767
The PCCC are not hiding. We are actively campaigning to get people to realise that there is a better way to do business with BA. The PCCC is not about the people who run it, it is about the ideaology, it's about changing the mindset of "no, no, no" and it's about doing things professionally in the interests of the crew, the customer and the company. Even if we said who we were, how many people would know us? How many would care? How many can name any/all of the current reps?
We have purposely avoided getting embroiled in the dispute - which would have happened if there had been names attached to it. This isn't personal, it isn't about who said what, it's about what they said.
By doing it this way, BASSA have been unable to attack us. They have made no challenges to our ideas or suggestions, presumably because they can't. They have been unable to make personal attacks, which they would have undoubtedly done. This is about ideas, about business, about change. And because BASSA haven't been able to make it personal, they cannot dispute what we are saying. Their only attack has been to call us managers; you only have to log on to our forum to see clear evidence that we are not. The fact that BASSA have not been able to challenge our ideology indicates to us that they have no argument. That, to us, is success.
We haven't said yes to everything. BA offered to put 184 crew back on. We ran a thread on our forum and most people didn't want 184 crew back on, so we stated this fact on our flyers. Many of our members wrote to BA and said that. Instead we got a pay rise. That, according to our members, was a success.
Most importantly by setting up the PCCC we have made BA aware that many crew do not support BASSA. BA have now made history by making an offer to non-union members. That, to us, is a success.
What success stories can BASSA lay claim to in this dispute?
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the criticisms of BASSA are far and many. Maybe BA could win the hearts and minds of people by not only offering ST back to CC, but by actually making it even better than before. Along side the current proposed changes that are nearly agreed by all accounts,of course. To be honest give me a great working environment any day.
That might win back the hearts and minds of the strikers but it would almost certainly irritate everyone else who went to work during the dispute keeping the company afloat during the hissy fit.
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Bravo HiFlyer
Just think how much better off our cc colleagues would be with a sharp mind like HiFlyer running collective bargaining for crew.
Just think how much better off our cc colleagues would be with a sharp mind like HiFlyer running collective bargaining for crew.
HiFlyer,
An excellent and well written post.
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the criticisms of BASSA are far and many. Maybe BA could win the hearts and minds of people by not only offering ST back to CC, but by actually making it even better than before. Along side the current proposed changes that are nearly agreed by all accounts,of course. To be honest give me a great working environment any day.
'Actually making it better than before'? Sounds like appeasement to me. Don't think that'll go down to well with many ground staff colleagues, myself certainly included. Witnessing a minority out to wreck the companies finances and jeapordize our futures-then become rewarded with superior ST benefits?