British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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ref post 657 "Have you looked at South African Airways or COMAIR who I imagine would have JNB or CPT bases. This would probably be your best option at this stage."
Did you mean for staff travel for Ava, or a new job.
Backing Ba
Did you mean for staff travel for Ava, or a new job.
Backing Ba
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ref post 657 "Have you looked at South African Airways or COMAIR who I imagine would have JNB or CPT bases. This would probably be your best option at this stage."
Did you mean for staff travel for Ava, or a new job.
Backing Ba
Did you mean for staff travel for Ava, or a new job.
Backing Ba
As for the suggestion of only reinstating stf travel for commuter routes only. Thats a fair idea but would take some time to apply the rules and logic in stf travel and wouldn't happen over night i suspect. and what are you proposing - just one route only ? So in Avas case if JNB was looking awful, she wouldn't be allowed to swap to CPT ? mmm, probably got to be all or nothing for everyone affected i reckon.
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Outsiders view
Having read all the posts regarding this issue over many months and in noway taking any sides on this issue, I would like to make a few suggestions to both sides and to the confused ( i am sure there is many)
Bassa Reps and their supporters
A Rep is a messenger boy or ( Girl), They have a duty to negotiate on their members behalf and when they have taken that as far as possible, it is their duty to bring back to the members the final position, This can be done with a recommendation to accept/ reject or leave it open to the members to vote accordingly to their own view. To recommend a rejection, they must hold the view that they can get a better deal, If you don,t achieve this, you dont have any option but to stand aside and let others try to recover a deal
In this case a "better deal" is now not possible, The union is split and even if you have a "majority" your position is untenable as you are unable to represent all the membership, In the intrest of the members of Cabin Crew stand aside to see if someone else can do a "deal"
Otherside
Regardless of "feelings" to take strike action takes courage, a them and us situtation will never work, Its easy to "break a strike" its much more difficult to find a acceptable answer to the problem. Leaving the union means you have no say. Management will learn lessons how to "deal" with the workforce in the future, Remember the total focus for all companys is cost, Its what drives the market price, Records show that one of the best ways to raise share price is to announce that you are making staff redundant. management bonus is linked to share price most of the time
So in reality the anti Bassa people are part of the problem and also part of the solution. I suggest that the UNITE membership ( non BASSA) now use their membership to put pressure on the UNITE Union to find a solution
I was a Union rep, and have seen this before, The solution was a "committee" outside of cabin crew ( unite reps within BA)hold the talks with management to find the solution , of course they report back to BASSA and also take on board "Cabin Crew fears" Everything can be on the table, Its a "win" "win" situtaion for both sides and the final position can be put honestly to all the members.
That folks is how a Union should work, The majority eventually take control ( not a single branch dictating), It workers power taking control and remember the "good times" will come back and as they say you can always "wait in the long grass"
Bassa Reps and their supporters
A Rep is a messenger boy or ( Girl), They have a duty to negotiate on their members behalf and when they have taken that as far as possible, it is their duty to bring back to the members the final position, This can be done with a recommendation to accept/ reject or leave it open to the members to vote accordingly to their own view. To recommend a rejection, they must hold the view that they can get a better deal, If you don,t achieve this, you dont have any option but to stand aside and let others try to recover a deal
In this case a "better deal" is now not possible, The union is split and even if you have a "majority" your position is untenable as you are unable to represent all the membership, In the intrest of the members of Cabin Crew stand aside to see if someone else can do a "deal"
Otherside
Regardless of "feelings" to take strike action takes courage, a them and us situtation will never work, Its easy to "break a strike" its much more difficult to find a acceptable answer to the problem. Leaving the union means you have no say. Management will learn lessons how to "deal" with the workforce in the future, Remember the total focus for all companys is cost, Its what drives the market price, Records show that one of the best ways to raise share price is to announce that you are making staff redundant. management bonus is linked to share price most of the time
So in reality the anti Bassa people are part of the problem and also part of the solution. I suggest that the UNITE membership ( non BASSA) now use their membership to put pressure on the UNITE Union to find a solution
I was a Union rep, and have seen this before, The solution was a "committee" outside of cabin crew ( unite reps within BA)hold the talks with management to find the solution , of course they report back to BASSA and also take on board "Cabin Crew fears" Everything can be on the table, Its a "win" "win" situtaion for both sides and the final position can be put honestly to all the members.
That folks is how a Union should work, The majority eventually take control ( not a single branch dictating), It workers power taking control and remember the "good times" will come back and as they say you can always "wait in the long grass"
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I actually meant switching companies to one better suited because there is no way anyone can afford commercial tickets on JNB route and British Airways will not be granting Staff Travel back in its full form to those whos actions have cost this company millions of pounds...so Ava like many others are probably in the same boat.
I do think the offer of Staff travel on commuting routes only is a good idea as well though....so maybe all is not lost.
I do think the offer of Staff travel on commuting routes only is a good idea as well though....so maybe all is not lost.
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Why are people looking for solutions for Ava. She knew what she was getting into when she went on strike, they were warned ST would be removed , no sympathy what so ever. They are lucky WW has compromised by offering it back with no senority.
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AVA, it must be great only having to work part time, facilitated by living in what is one of the cheapest major cities in the world whilst earning a wage in a very high cost economy. On top of this, you only have to turn up in London once a month on a discounted ticket.
Sorry to say it, but I don't feel sorry for you.
There could be tax liabilities if BA are seen to subsidise or make easier commuting to work. Could commuting be seen as a benefit in kind like benefiting from a company car?
Sorry to say it, but I don't feel sorry for you.
There could be tax liabilities if BA are seen to subsidise or make easier commuting to work. Could commuting be seen as a benefit in kind like benefiting from a company car?
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ref post 667
A very interesting point.
As a child I enjoyed free rail travel (first class, unlimited) there was no tax liability on that.... except my father had to pay tax on his season ticket from home to office (first class price assumed) as that was considered to be a benefit. Any parallels here......?
As a child I enjoyed free rail travel (first class, unlimited) there was no tax liability on that.... except my father had to pay tax on his season ticket from home to office (first class price assumed) as that was considered to be a benefit. Any parallels here......?
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I think this forum is going downhill interest-wise...
One person appears, writes a saga and then everyone revolves around their staff travel loss... Well, it was their choice, I too, have zero compassion about those people. I think they chose the wrong forum. Crew forum or indeed bassa forum would be more compassionate.
On the more practical side, it has been brought to my attention that strikers have started using a common code of communication, by wearing their ids "inside out", hence they are not visible when walking through the crc...
I am not an expert and any help/opinion, would be appreciated on this matter. Is that legal?? shouldn't ids be visible at all times?? or could BA start sacking or suspending them, so we can get rid of them quicker????
One person appears, writes a saga and then everyone revolves around their staff travel loss... Well, it was their choice, I too, have zero compassion about those people. I think they chose the wrong forum. Crew forum or indeed bassa forum would be more compassionate.
On the more practical side, it has been brought to my attention that strikers have started using a common code of communication, by wearing their ids "inside out", hence they are not visible when walking through the crc...
I am not an expert and any help/opinion, would be appreciated on this matter. Is that legal?? shouldn't ids be visible at all times?? or could BA start sacking or suspending them, so we can get rid of them quicker????
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Posted by Ava Hannah
What makes you convinced that all non-striking crew want the best for the company and have pride in what they do? Despite that I have been on strike, I believe my performance at work is good and I do take great pride in my career. There are different sides of the issue
What makes you convinced that all non-striking crew want the best for the company and have pride in what they do? Despite that I have been on strike, I believe my performance at work is good and I do take great pride in my career. There are different sides of the issue
You do talk a load of rubbish!
Every crew member that I worked with on every strike day was committed, wanted to delight our customers and gave simply the best service on board. It was like doing a VIP flight for me bearing in mind that all our customers are VIPs! The atmosphere on board was brilliant compared to the tension felt on some of the flights with strikers at the moment.
Some of the strikers I've worked with are professional, but the attitude and commitment is definitely lacking in a small minority who think BA and the whole world owe them a living. They continue to intimidate those who came to work.
I've been with BA for over 26 years, yet I recognise and accept the need for change and want the best for a company that I can still say I'm proud to work for.
Before you say it, if and I mean a big if I had no choice but to go to Mixed Fleet, I would accept it. The CSM role on Mixed Fleet is interesting and challenging, something I would be up for instead of stacking shelves in Sainsbury's. I also happen to have two recognised qualifications which mean it wouldn't be difficult for me to find employment elsewhere.
However, I love my job and am committed to what I do in BA so I would stick around for as long as BA would have me.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 1st Jul 2010 at 20:22.
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ID Passes
blue____,
Here are the display requirements for pass holders.
And from EN804: Displaying of identity passes:
Here are the display requirements for pass holders.
Whilst within British Airways Areas all staff, contractors and visitors are required to visibly display their Security ID Passes at all times, whether access to their work place is security controlled or not.
It is a requirement under section 21c of the Aviation Security Act 1982, as amended by the Aviation and Maritime Act 1990, for ID pass holders to display their ID pass at all times whilst on duty in the restricted zone or controlled areas of airports. Additionally all Airside ID pass holders are to display their pass whilst in landside areas. This includes landside terminal areas, car parks and landside buildings.
ID passes should be displayed in one of the following ways:
ID passes should be displayed in one of the following ways:
- attached to clothing using the clip provided on the ID pass holder
- around the neck, using the chain and holder provided
- in the clear plastic pocket of the armband style ID pass holder
- in the clear plastic pocket provided on some uniform garments
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Very well said Tiramisu... enough with a person's self created drama... I have no compassion, as they have all been warned...
I couldn't agree with you more regarding the vip sense onboard the "strike era"flights...
Not only glamour, but genuine pride in what we were recruited to do...
Thank God some people have not swallowed the "bassa-pill" and even more lately, have decided to spit it out!!!
I couldn't agree with you more regarding the vip sense onboard the "strike era"flights...
Not only glamour, but genuine pride in what we were recruited to do...
Thank God some people have not swallowed the "bassa-pill" and even more lately, have decided to spit it out!!!
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So what is you job and what is your hobby, CC for BA or your farm in JNB.
Do you know how inflammatory you comments are, and you expect sympathy !!
Backing BA (even though I only have a job, no farm)
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AVA, it must be great only having to work part time, facilitated by living in what is one of the cheapest major cities in the world whilst earning a wage in a very high cost economy. On top of this, you only have to turn up in London once a month on a discounted ticket.
Sorry to say it, but I don't feel sorry for you.
There could be tax liabilities if BA are seen to subsidise or make easier commuting to work. Could commuting be seen as a benefit in kind like benefiting from a company car?
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Tiramisu
Do I talk a lot of rubbish? Why? Because I don't agree with our management and what they are trying to do to us? Maybe you should sit down and consider thoroughly over your actions when you crossed the picket line. I have been in the company for a fairly long time and this is the nastiest management we have ever faced. Many are claiming that Willie Walsh has negotiated but in reality he has preached.
If you have two qualifications, why would you accept Mixed Fleet? I haven't got any university qualification and I would never accept Mixed Fleet. Even for the CSM role, it would include having to accept a full-time position and a decrease in salary in my case. It's not an option.
I also have a passion in my job but I am not going to allow a temporary management to destroy it.
Do I talk a lot of rubbish? Why? Because I don't agree with our management and what they are trying to do to us? Maybe you should sit down and consider thoroughly over your actions when you crossed the picket line. I have been in the company for a fairly long time and this is the nastiest management we have ever faced. Many are claiming that Willie Walsh has negotiated but in reality he has preached.
If you have two qualifications, why would you accept Mixed Fleet? I haven't got any university qualification and I would never accept Mixed Fleet. Even for the CSM role, it would include having to accept a full-time position and a decrease in salary in my case. It's not an option.
I also have a passion in my job but I am not going to allow a temporary management to destroy it.
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I have been in the company for a fairly long time and this is the nastiest management we have ever faced.
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Just a few thoughts...
of course a person who comes to work once a month, can potentially have more passion for their job that a full time employer that for the past 26 years has been coming to work EVERY DAY...
and secondly a person with a university degree can potentially have a better judgement when thinking and assessing facts, than someone who came in BA straight after school...
if I was working under someones terms and conditions that allow them to live in a place like RSA, then coming to work to do a flight would be a break!
if someone dislikes management so much, just because they have decided its now time for THEM and not bassa to run this airline, they can simply leave! Their imput and productivity is not significant anyway...
Just a few thoughts!!!
of course a person who comes to work once a month, can potentially have more passion for their job that a full time employer that for the past 26 years has been coming to work EVERY DAY...
and secondly a person with a university degree can potentially have a better judgement when thinking and assessing facts, than someone who came in BA straight after school...
if I was working under someones terms and conditions that allow them to live in a place like RSA, then coming to work to do a flight would be a break!
if someone dislikes management so much, just because they have decided its now time for THEM and not bassa to run this airline, they can simply leave! Their imput and productivity is not significant anyway...
Just a few thoughts!!!
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this is getting tedious...
we seem to have been sucked in to attempting to reason with an individual who, for their own reasons, chooses not to see the total folly of their actions and who is casting around for someone, anyone but themselves to blame for the consequences. There comes a point when one has to accept that they are beyond helping and that the best option is to leave them in their little bubble. It really is not worth expending the energy and effort in rehashing the arguements as the oucome is known before you draw breath. Ava. I wish you well, but frankly, it isn't worth anyone on here expending any more time or effort on putting forward the alternative view. You will need to work it yourself.
On a more positive note. I see that Unite (not BASSA) have determined that the management offer will be balloted and the ballot will be conducted by an independant organisation. This is really heartening as I was getting the impression that a concern from the previous consultative ballot was that BASSA would know how each member had voted. Given the reports that BASSA hardliners would wish to see any members who voted in favour of accepting the management offer ejected from the union, calling in an independant body to conduct the ballot would seem to prevent this occurring. Maybe members will be able to vote based on personal bleief as opposed to fear. Such a course of action by Unite is not without risk. There is a possibility that the vote might be to accept the management offer. In which case the prospect of pursuing the return of staff travel other than as put forward by BA to Brendan Barber and the concerns over disciplinaries get kicked into the long grass. Based on the last strike ballot, only 63% of the membership actually voted for strike action. When it came to who went on strike, the most optimistic figure from Unite would be about 50% of cabin crew. The low is about 30%. So a vote to accept the offer is well within the realms of possibility.
What happens if the vote is to reject the offer ? Noting that it is labeled as a Final offer, and that BA have stated that it will be withdrawn if Unite then ballot for strike action I would expect the following.
I think BA management would increase the rate of recruitment to New Fleet. I also think they would look very closely at the reasons stated on any ballot for strike action. If Unite stick with the current form of words, I think BA will issue a final warning that they consider this to be a continuation of the previous ballot and not new issues and point out that this has consequences. If Unite still ballot and get a majority by selective balloting, I would expect BA to wait for staff to walk out in ay strike dates chosen. I would then anticipate that they would sack strikers. I think the will hang fire on suing Unite for damages as it is not in the company's interest to trash a union which represents a substantial proportion of its workforce outsode of crew. Nonetheless, I think that Unite will be left under no illusions that they have got off lightly. It will then be up to the sacked individuals to seek to demonstrate in a tribunal that their dismissal was unfair. It remains to be seen whether the union will wish to pick up the legal costs for representing their members. Somehow, I doubt that they will. The alternate scenario is that in the event that BA crew reject the management offer, Unite may have a showdown with BASSA. The deal could be - if you want to ballot on the same issues, you are on your own and no longer part of Unite.
Whatever happens, BA will run a 100% longhaul programme and would be well on the way to running a 100% shorthaul one too.
On a more positive note. I see that Unite (not BASSA) have determined that the management offer will be balloted and the ballot will be conducted by an independant organisation. This is really heartening as I was getting the impression that a concern from the previous consultative ballot was that BASSA would know how each member had voted. Given the reports that BASSA hardliners would wish to see any members who voted in favour of accepting the management offer ejected from the union, calling in an independant body to conduct the ballot would seem to prevent this occurring. Maybe members will be able to vote based on personal bleief as opposed to fear. Such a course of action by Unite is not without risk. There is a possibility that the vote might be to accept the management offer. In which case the prospect of pursuing the return of staff travel other than as put forward by BA to Brendan Barber and the concerns over disciplinaries get kicked into the long grass. Based on the last strike ballot, only 63% of the membership actually voted for strike action. When it came to who went on strike, the most optimistic figure from Unite would be about 50% of cabin crew. The low is about 30%. So a vote to accept the offer is well within the realms of possibility.
What happens if the vote is to reject the offer ? Noting that it is labeled as a Final offer, and that BA have stated that it will be withdrawn if Unite then ballot for strike action I would expect the following.
I think BA management would increase the rate of recruitment to New Fleet. I also think they would look very closely at the reasons stated on any ballot for strike action. If Unite stick with the current form of words, I think BA will issue a final warning that they consider this to be a continuation of the previous ballot and not new issues and point out that this has consequences. If Unite still ballot and get a majority by selective balloting, I would expect BA to wait for staff to walk out in ay strike dates chosen. I would then anticipate that they would sack strikers. I think the will hang fire on suing Unite for damages as it is not in the company's interest to trash a union which represents a substantial proportion of its workforce outsode of crew. Nonetheless, I think that Unite will be left under no illusions that they have got off lightly. It will then be up to the sacked individuals to seek to demonstrate in a tribunal that their dismissal was unfair. It remains to be seen whether the union will wish to pick up the legal costs for representing their members. Somehow, I doubt that they will. The alternate scenario is that in the event that BA crew reject the management offer, Unite may have a showdown with BASSA. The deal could be - if you want to ballot on the same issues, you are on your own and no longer part of Unite.
Whatever happens, BA will run a 100% longhaul programme and would be well on the way to running a 100% shorthaul one too.
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Ava Hannah,
My point is that you posted the fact that crew who came to work don't have pride in what they do which is absolute nonsense!
It has nothing to do with whether you agree or disagree with management. I don't always agree with management and nothing would stop me challenging management if for a minute I thought they were wrong but you've picked the wrong battle with WW who is doing everything to ensure BA survives.
The point I made about Mixed Fleet is that the CSM role is interesting and challenging and being a motivated person, I would enjoy the challenge. Why would I want to give up a job that I'm passionate about and still enjoy?
How do you propose to do that Ava?
By striking and destroying our customers travel plans?
You will only destroy what you want most, hardly a sensible thing to do as it's obvious you have achieved nothing so far.
Colonel White,
It is getting tedious, indeed.
My point is that you posted the fact that crew who came to work don't have pride in what they do which is absolute nonsense!
It has nothing to do with whether you agree or disagree with management. I don't always agree with management and nothing would stop me challenging management if for a minute I thought they were wrong but you've picked the wrong battle with WW who is doing everything to ensure BA survives.
If you have two qualifications, why would you accept Mixed Fleet? I haven't got any university qualification and I would never accept Mixed Fleet. Even for the CSM role, it would include having to accept a full-time position and a decrease in salary in my case. It's not an option.
I also have a passion in my job but I am not going to allow a temporary management to destroy it.
By striking and destroying our customers travel plans?
You will only destroy what you want most, hardly a sensible thing to do as it's obvious you have achieved nothing so far.
Colonel White,
It is getting tedious, indeed.