British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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Unless Staff Travel is given back, I am not bothered with this new proposal. They can stuff it. I commute from JNB and I can't wait for years until the Staff Travel issue appears in the European Courts.
They have replaced MTP with a 'top-up payment' which includes a no strike clause. That itself indicates that you will lose a huge amount of your pay if you take industrial action. A two year pay rise? Are BA trying to bribe us to accept a proposal? They have also based the top-up payment, which is £1500 less than the MTP in previous proposals, on last year and this year's schedule which includes three industrial actions and the ash volcano incident. Either way, MFH is going to take all of our lucrative routes and we will have to rely on a silly top-up payment. I don't even want to think of how long it is going to last before they rip that up.
Why did they send out the proposal on a Friday night? And individual offers? BA are trying to divide us even further. Nice try. Sorry Bill Francis and Willie Walsh. Unless you give my Staff Travel back with my original seniority, which I think I have earned after 17 years of continuous service with BA, I am not interested. You could offer me all the money in the world, I still wouldn't take it unless Staff Travel is given back.
They have replaced MTP with a 'top-up payment' which includes a no strike clause. That itself indicates that you will lose a huge amount of your pay if you take industrial action. A two year pay rise? Are BA trying to bribe us to accept a proposal? They have also based the top-up payment, which is £1500 less than the MTP in previous proposals, on last year and this year's schedule which includes three industrial actions and the ash volcano incident. Either way, MFH is going to take all of our lucrative routes and we will have to rely on a silly top-up payment. I don't even want to think of how long it is going to last before they rip that up.
Why did they send out the proposal on a Friday night? And individual offers? BA are trying to divide us even further. Nice try. Sorry Bill Francis and Willie Walsh. Unless you give my Staff Travel back with my original seniority, which I think I have earned after 17 years of continuous service with BA, I am not interested. You could offer me all the money in the world, I still wouldn't take it unless Staff Travel is given back.
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Betty girl.
I answer to your question - no, and I know that I would not be able to get by on that amount.
It is undeniably a fairly meagre amount, however it will be topped up by numerous extra payments.
The term sob story was not directed at you personally and I apologise if that is how it came over. However, you should look at the bigger picture.
£11000 + this + that + whatever = significantly more than many people are earning.
I am 100% sure that many young people will see it as a very attractive package, I am also 100% sure that BA no longer want a huge department of career cc - you simply cost too much - and will be very happy when these same people move on after a few years
I answer to your question - no, and I know that I would not be able to get by on that amount.
It is undeniably a fairly meagre amount, however it will be topped up by numerous extra payments.
The term sob story was not directed at you personally and I apologise if that is how it came over. However, you should look at the bigger picture.
£11000 + this + that + whatever = significantly more than many people are earning.
I am 100% sure that many young people will see it as a very attractive package, I am also 100% sure that BA no longer want a huge department of career cc - you simply cost too much - and will be very happy when these same people move on after a few years
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Bettys Girl,
I agree with you with what you said about CEOs getting richer etc.
I do not agree with the strike, I am not militant, BA HAS been patient with UNITE, this dispute is a mess, and I am not socialist or a left winger AT ALL!
But, it does annoy me how in society if you are well paid you are told to ''think yourself lucky'' just by having a DECENT pay. I am on New Contract and I am well paid, but it is only decent! I still don't live a champagne lifestyle, not that I expect to I will have you know - but people talk about our job as though we get so much money we can go on 5 holidays a year own 4 homes inlcuding villas abroad etc etc.... and we work hardly any of the time! I know many crew who still struggle to pay their rent and remember it is reliant on a good roster as our basic is very very low on new contract!
I do think rather than slating people for earning a good wage, people should see at as the standard and work towards getting a good wage!
It does seem as though society is going backwards with regards to this, but that is just how I see it.
I agree with you with what you said about CEOs getting richer etc.
I do not agree with the strike, I am not militant, BA HAS been patient with UNITE, this dispute is a mess, and I am not socialist or a left winger AT ALL!
But, it does annoy me how in society if you are well paid you are told to ''think yourself lucky'' just by having a DECENT pay. I am on New Contract and I am well paid, but it is only decent! I still don't live a champagne lifestyle, not that I expect to I will have you know - but people talk about our job as though we get so much money we can go on 5 holidays a year own 4 homes inlcuding villas abroad etc etc.... and we work hardly any of the time! I know many crew who still struggle to pay their rent and remember it is reliant on a good roster as our basic is very very low on new contract!
I do think rather than slating people for earning a good wage, people should see at as the standard and work towards getting a good wage!
It does seem as though society is going backwards with regards to this, but that is just how I see it.
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Pay for cabin crew
Refer to http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2009.pdf.
Average annual pay* for cabin crew is poor for all compared with BA. For example, Virgin Atlantic pays only £14,400. This suggests a basic salary below what BA if offering to Mixed Fleet.
* Included are gross salary (before deduction of income tax, pension social welfare and voluntary payments), overtime pay, sales commissions, flying pay and subsistence allowances, (such as cost of living allowances, station and overseas allowances) and all crew hourly flight allowances (i.e. those in excess of travel and incidental expenses).
Average annual pay* for cabin crew is poor for all compared with BA. For example, Virgin Atlantic pays only £14,400. This suggests a basic salary below what BA if offering to Mixed Fleet.
* Included are gross salary (before deduction of income tax, pension social welfare and voluntary payments), overtime pay, sales commissions, flying pay and subsistence allowances, (such as cost of living allowances, station and overseas allowances) and all crew hourly flight allowances (i.e. those in excess of travel and incidental expenses).
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Carribbean boy.
You cannot take average salaries like that chart shows and compare that with new starter rates. You are comparing apples with pears. Plus virgin figures do not show the allowances they are paid as at Virgin they get paid those in cash. Trust me the starting pay for Virgin is more than £11000. The allowances are more than 2.40 ph.
If you take a quick look at the average pilot salaries on the other side of your chart you will see exactly how misleading these figures are.
You cannot take average salaries like that chart shows and compare that with new starter rates. You are comparing apples with pears. Plus virgin figures do not show the allowances they are paid as at Virgin they get paid those in cash. Trust me the starting pay for Virgin is more than £11000. The allowances are more than 2.40 ph.
If you take a quick look at the average pilot salaries on the other side of your chart you will see exactly how misleading these figures are.
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BA cabin crew ARE paid more than other airlines..... currently. But also so are Pilots. Although maybe percentage wise there is not as much of a difference.
However, EZY, Thomson, FlyBe and even BMI (which I am surprised with) are all quite reasonably paid.
I am not sure what the salary will be with allowances included for Mixed Fleet Heathrow??? Anyone hazard a guess as I haven't worked it out. They will work harder so more, but also be paid from report to clear but 900 hours only covers flying hours, doesn't it??? (Think total duty hours can be 2000)
Also with regards to that table - remember BA do have alot of crew who have been in the company since 1970s, 1980s - which means there salaries are higher. Some airlines (like Virgin) have a high turnover meaning that more of their staff are more junior meaning they will have less pay. So this means that a junior at Virgin and BA may not be that much different (I know we are better paid but I am sure you can see what I am saying - that that chart is not that accurate!)
However, EZY, Thomson, FlyBe and even BMI (which I am surprised with) are all quite reasonably paid.
I am not sure what the salary will be with allowances included for Mixed Fleet Heathrow??? Anyone hazard a guess as I haven't worked it out. They will work harder so more, but also be paid from report to clear but 900 hours only covers flying hours, doesn't it??? (Think total duty hours can be 2000)
Also with regards to that table - remember BA do have alot of crew who have been in the company since 1970s, 1980s - which means there salaries are higher. Some airlines (like Virgin) have a high turnover meaning that more of their staff are more junior meaning they will have less pay. So this means that a junior at Virgin and BA may not be that much different (I know we are better paid but I am sure you can see what I am saying - that that chart is not that accurate!)
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Side bustle.
I have worked it out.
2000 hours x2.4 = £4800
Add that to 11,000 = £15800 divide that by 12 months and you get £1316
before tax. Then take off about £200 per month (a very modest amount to spend on food down route) and you get £1116 still before tax.
So if any of you think that is market rate for someone before tax,fine, but I think it is a very low wage.
I have worked it out.
2000 hours x2.4 = £4800
Add that to 11,000 = £15800 divide that by 12 months and you get £1316
before tax. Then take off about £200 per month (a very modest amount to spend on food down route) and you get £1116 still before tax.
So if any of you think that is market rate for someone before tax,fine, but I think it is a very low wage.
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Betty Girl,
Not looking to split hairs, but if you are going to post BMI and Thomson, can you also let us know what their direct entry CSM and FTC rates are to confirm that BA are not offering a competitive rate?
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Essessdeedee.
Am pretty sure they don't have direct entry CSM's. But I think the CSM £25k will be popular with alot of current crew and some crew from other airlines. I don't disagree.
You know, the pay does not affect me. All I said was that it is low and it is.
£1100 before tax is low and that is if you hardly spend anything downroute while you are away on food.
Plus at LGW, which consider themselves bad off.
1.) they earn more than 11,000
2.)Their hourly rate is more and
3.) they get a breakfast alowance on top at alot of their destinations which New Fleet won't.
This pay is very low no matter how much you want to make out it is not.
Am pretty sure they don't have direct entry CSM's. But I think the CSM £25k will be popular with alot of current crew and some crew from other airlines. I don't disagree.
You know, the pay does not affect me. All I said was that it is low and it is.
£1100 before tax is low and that is if you hardly spend anything downroute while you are away on food.
Plus at LGW, which consider themselves bad off.
1.) they earn more than 11,000
2.)Their hourly rate is more and
3.) they get a breakfast alowance on top at alot of their destinations which New Fleet won't.
This pay is very low no matter how much you want to make out it is not.
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Betty girl wrote:
Why you think that Virgin is not reporting to the CAA the downroute allowances paid? An allowance is an allowance, regardless of the form of payment.
Plus virgin figures do not show the allowances they are paid as at Virgin they get paid those in cash.
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To call it low, it all depends what you compare it to. As I said before, look to other businesses. I still stand by my point that BA wont struggle to find suitable applicants.
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As far as I know most of the charters at least do not have direct entry. Also remember some of these charter airlines Thomson (used to be Britannia and FCA/Air 2000, merged) and Monarch are also very established airlines so must have lots of crew on an older contract.
I do think £25,000 plus £2.40 an hour plus performance pay is competitive. Although it is alot of responsibility as there will be no PSR on board a 777.
However we are talking about Main Crew salaries on Mixed Fleet - they are quite low! Especially considering we are not an airline who is soley based as somewhere like Leeds Bradford (no offense to anyone who lives/or works out of Leeds) But this is London and the South East of England which is very expensive. Then again I suppose BA do not want crew to stay long which is the point.
I do think £25,000 plus £2.40 an hour plus performance pay is competitive. Although it is alot of responsibility as there will be no PSR on board a 777.
However we are talking about Main Crew salaries on Mixed Fleet - they are quite low! Especially considering we are not an airline who is soley based as somewhere like Leeds Bradford (no offense to anyone who lives/or works out of Leeds) But this is London and the South East of England which is very expensive. Then again I suppose BA do not want crew to stay long which is the point.
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You are right Caribbean Boy, I think Virgin basic pay is around £10,000 for a new starter - similar to LGW. I am not sure how their allowance/flight pay structure is.
There is a thread on here in the cabin crew section actually asking other airlines what they get a month averagly.
There is a thread on here in the cabin crew section actually asking other airlines what they get a month averagly.
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I've been following this topic for a while but never thought to join Pprune until now.
I am an ex 11 month temp. I'm actually very sad over the whole mixed fleet even though after wanting to join BA for a long long time a permanent position is now on the cards.
This new mixed fleet is going to be charter! its going to attract young crew, no disrespect to anyone but its going to be young folk that I used to fly with in my charter days, don't get me wrong. I was that person once, discussions of the room party on the flight, gossip from downroute antics. BA is not like that, BA is what you aim for after those days and thats exactly what I love about it.
This new fleet and new intake of young crew is going to ruin everything about BA.
All very sad, and I agree its a shame BASSA didn't negotiate NF not happening.
I am an ex 11 month temp. I'm actually very sad over the whole mixed fleet even though after wanting to join BA for a long long time a permanent position is now on the cards.
This new mixed fleet is going to be charter! its going to attract young crew, no disrespect to anyone but its going to be young folk that I used to fly with in my charter days, don't get me wrong. I was that person once, discussions of the room party on the flight, gossip from downroute antics. BA is not like that, BA is what you aim for after those days and thats exactly what I love about it.
This new fleet and new intake of young crew is going to ruin everything about BA.
All very sad, and I agree its a shame BASSA didn't negotiate NF not happening.
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Unless Staff Travel is given back, I am not bothered with this new proposal. They can stuff it. I commute from JNB and I can't wait for years until the Staff Travel issue appears in the European Courts.
They have replaced MTP with a 'top-up payment' which includes a no strike clause. That itself indicates that you will lose a huge amount of your pay if you take industrial action. A two year pay rise? Are BA trying to bribe us to accept a proposal? They have also based the top-up payment, which is £1500 less than the MTP in previous proposals, on last year and this year's schedule which includes three industrial actions and the ash volcano incident. Either way, MFH is going to take all of our lucrative routes and we will have to rely on a silly top-up payment. I don't even want to think of how long it is going to last before they rip that up.
Why did they send out the proposal on a Friday night? And individual offers? BA are trying to divide us even further. Nice try. Sorry Bill Francis and Willie Walsh. Unless you give my Staff Travel back with my original seniority, which I think I have earned after 17 years of continuous service with BA, I am not interested. You could offer me all the money in the world, I still wouldn't take it unless Staff Travel is given back.
They have replaced MTP with a 'top-up payment' which includes a no strike clause. That itself indicates that you will lose a huge amount of your pay if you take industrial action. A two year pay rise? Are BA trying to bribe us to accept a proposal? They have also based the top-up payment, which is £1500 less than the MTP in previous proposals, on last year and this year's schedule which includes three industrial actions and the ash volcano incident. Either way, MFH is going to take all of our lucrative routes and we will have to rely on a silly top-up payment. I don't even want to think of how long it is going to last before they rip that up.
Why did they send out the proposal on a Friday night? And individual offers? BA are trying to divide us even further. Nice try. Sorry Bill Francis and Willie Walsh. Unless you give my Staff Travel back with my original seniority, which I think I have earned after 17 years of continuous service with BA, I am not interested. You could offer me all the money in the world, I still wouldn't take it unless Staff Travel is given back.
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MRC1972
This new fleet and new intake of young crew is going to ruin everything about BA.
I think it will be a breath of fresh air having "young crew" onboard who yes will party etc downroute but also will give good service "with a smile" onboard which isn't always the case at the moment.
The performance pay element will ensure that service onboard will be consistently good as opposed to at the moment i.e getting paid above the norm for good or bad service depending on your mood with no repercussions.
This new fleet and new intake of young crew is going to ruin everything about BA.
I think it will be a breath of fresh air having "young crew" onboard who yes will party etc downroute but also will give good service "with a smile" onboard which isn't always the case at the moment.
The performance pay element will ensure that service onboard will be consistently good as opposed to at the moment i.e getting paid above the norm for good or bad service depending on your mood with no repercussions.
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Mar1972.
You are so right.
Clublemon
I am sick to death of people making out BA crew are rubbish. I work on eurofleet and I work with crew that smile all day.
BA cabin crew win award after award for their service. Sweeping statements like the ones you make are very unplesant.
Have you flown down the back on another carrier recently.
I doubt it. I flew recently on Virgin and after the meal we did not see one of them for hours. They even turned the call bells off!!!!
Lots of us have come from charter airlines so we know exactly what it is like.
When you get lots of young people working in an airline sickness will rocket, . Some will come straight from a night out to work with a hangover.
I AM SORRY BUT YOU MUST BE WORKING IN A DIFFERENT AIRLINE TO ME
I am sad that new crew are not going to be working with us now because I love new crew but the picture you paint of us crew is not fair and untrue. Most BA cabin crew are charming and go out of their way to please their passengers.
You are so right.
Clublemon
I am sick to death of people making out BA crew are rubbish. I work on eurofleet and I work with crew that smile all day.
BA cabin crew win award after award for their service. Sweeping statements like the ones you make are very unplesant.
Have you flown down the back on another carrier recently.
I doubt it. I flew recently on Virgin and after the meal we did not see one of them for hours. They even turned the call bells off!!!!
Lots of us have come from charter airlines so we know exactly what it is like.
When you get lots of young people working in an airline sickness will rocket, . Some will come straight from a night out to work with a hangover.
I AM SORRY BUT YOU MUST BE WORKING IN A DIFFERENT AIRLINE TO ME
I am sad that new crew are not going to be working with us now because I love new crew but the picture you paint of us crew is not fair and untrue. Most BA cabin crew are charming and go out of their way to please their passengers.
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Having worked 6 years for Virgin and now at BA, in both respects I have and do enjoy the job, HOWEVER
Virgin was def more fun, as crew are younger, enthusiastic and yes they do want to party down route but this makes happier crew on board I believe! I agree that every airline needs a certain amount of experience but I do believe the way MF is heading is that it will be more like Virgin on board. I think this is a good thing!
No disrespect for my colleagues at BA, but there are some miserable people working for us as crew who think BA owe them a living, not to mention lazy. Its about time we got some fresh blood in and have a mix of both young, new and experienced crew on board. This is not to say that also alot of our crew are very good at their job, but in my experience there isn't so many of these crew around BA.
Oh, and the job is not all about throwing out the service as quick as poss in order to maximise breaks! I would personally rather spend more time on giving the customer exactly what they deserve then get an extra 5 mins of break time!!!
The best comparison is LGW, I think these guys are great, have fun and deliver great customer service, they aren't on LHR wages but they certainly don't moan about it. They get on with it and enjoy the job for what it is.
Bring on MF, can't wait to be part of ONE HAPPY OUTSTANDING TEAM!!!!
Virgin was def more fun, as crew are younger, enthusiastic and yes they do want to party down route but this makes happier crew on board I believe! I agree that every airline needs a certain amount of experience but I do believe the way MF is heading is that it will be more like Virgin on board. I think this is a good thing!
No disrespect for my colleagues at BA, but there are some miserable people working for us as crew who think BA owe them a living, not to mention lazy. Its about time we got some fresh blood in and have a mix of both young, new and experienced crew on board. This is not to say that also alot of our crew are very good at their job, but in my experience there isn't so many of these crew around BA.
Oh, and the job is not all about throwing out the service as quick as poss in order to maximise breaks! I would personally rather spend more time on giving the customer exactly what they deserve then get an extra 5 mins of break time!!!
The best comparison is LGW, I think these guys are great, have fun and deliver great customer service, they aren't on LHR wages but they certainly don't moan about it. They get on with it and enjoy the job for what it is.
Bring on MF, can't wait to be part of ONE HAPPY OUTSTANDING TEAM!!!!
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Oh and one last thing, CRM
Well I can't wait to go back to being all part of the same team instead of 'them and us' attitude. I get on well with my flight crew colleagues and very much enjoy their company.
Oh and before someone says : well go back to Virgin then', please don't bother. Im only giving my views, and im so happy I have come to BA as I think this is a great company to work for and look forward to the future! I have also worked with some fantastic crew so please don't get the impression I putting everyone in the same boat!
Well I can't wait to go back to being all part of the same team instead of 'them and us' attitude. I get on well with my flight crew colleagues and very much enjoy their company.
Oh and before someone says : well go back to Virgin then', please don't bother. Im only giving my views, and im so happy I have come to BA as I think this is a great company to work for and look forward to the future! I have also worked with some fantastic crew so please don't get the impression I putting everyone in the same boat!
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PTC,
GO BACK TO VIRGIN THEN!!!
I only joke!
No I see what you mean but I also see what MRC1972 means aswell..... I am a ''young crew'' myself on one of the current fleets.
I don't phone in with a hangover etc etc.... even though I am young, but I know what Betty's girl is saying as some younger crew do. But then again, that doesn't mean all young people are like that or slackers!!
I can see what people mean about young, enthusiastic people etc.... as we do have some miserable people who are bitter and jaded. But we also have fab experienced crew who are not jaded and still have as much passion for their job as when they joined. And obviously have experience in the jobs. Which is a good thing.
I think a mix is a good thing. Overall, let's not judge people on age but how their attitude etc to their job is.
GO BACK TO VIRGIN THEN!!!
I only joke!No I see what you mean but I also see what MRC1972 means aswell..... I am a ''young crew'' myself on one of the current fleets.
I don't phone in with a hangover etc etc.... even though I am young, but I know what Betty's girl is saying as some younger crew do. But then again, that doesn't mean all young people are like that or slackers!!
I can see what people mean about young, enthusiastic people etc.... as we do have some miserable people who are bitter and jaded. But we also have fab experienced crew who are not jaded and still have as much passion for their job as when they joined. And obviously have experience in the jobs. Which is a good thing.
I think a mix is a good thing. Overall, let's not judge people on age but how their attitude etc to their job is.