British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)

[LD12986]

"I've always taken the view that if you're not at the table, you're likely to be on the menu."

Martin Broughton

[midman]

Mixed fleet is here, nothing is going to change that now, but without proper safeguards, it awaits us in all its glory, sooner or later. Our focus must remain on achieving those safeguards, for without them, our future is decidedly uncertain.

So safeguards are what are required to placate Bassa? IFCE have explained the safeguards that they propose, ie MTP etc, but that isn't enough of a 'guarantee' for them.

Could a pro Bassa poster please explain what form of words or actions they would like BA to use in order to achieve these safeguards? Surely that's the nub of the argument now.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

I can't see LGW staying the same once this fleet is up and running.

I think at the very least the writing is on the wall for the Purser position.

[Caribbean Boy]

midman,

BASSA has always been hostile to New Fleet, offered no alternative, refused to negotiate and now finds it imposed by BA. More fool them.

[Eddy]

Sadly, CB, I have to agree. Mixed Fleet could well have been similar to LGW had negotiation taken place. But trying to protect the 'golden runways' of Heathrow has got in the way of doing anything positive for anyone else.

As someone currently enjoying the 'golden runways' benefits, I'd have rather accepted what was offered in 2009 or earlier this year and seen both parties in this dispute spend some time working out a decent deal for our future colleagues on MF.

LGW isn't at all unattractive - I'm on the list to transfer there. MF, however, seems to be.

[Express1]

Express 1, yes I am talking about the latest batch of volunteers only.

I get the impression that you are maybe a PSU Duty Manager or similar.

You say the trial was with union agreement. At least one union rep is telling PSU staff that BA is just going ahead with various trials. If the union agrees, all well and good, if they don’t, they carry on regardless. Not quite the same story.

Quote:
WW himself has said that he believes BA should be handled by it's own staff at its main base
Forgive me but like most bosses, what Willie says or promises is probably good for about a week at most. They tend to look you in the eye, categorically state that there are no plans for xyz etc. Then low and behold…a new plan for the future is discovered.

I must be getting cynical, I wonder why.

I am not a PSU duty manager or similar. Just someone who has a brain and has been able to make my own judgements about various events.

As for the union rep telling staff that BA is just going ahead with the trials, I haven't heard that one and have seen union reps observing the trials I have been involved with and actively seeking feedback so that they can use to properly judge.

Quite frankly, we do need to change and some of the changes are long overdue. There are areas where we could and should be more productive. Not all the changes I have thought were for the best and I have made my views known on these. Funny enough, some of these changes were proposed even before WW, in the lead up to T5.

I have had no reason not to believe what WW has said or indeed that of my direct management. Further from it, some of the things that our direct management have said are now being in the initial phase and I was initially unsure if we would get to this stage and yet we are getting there.

[Caribbean Boy]

Eddy wrote:

I certainly don't imagine there will be many existing crew applying for positions on New Fleet, particularly considering the company's requirement essentially exclude almost all main crew from applying for the CSM role.

BA wants the CSMs to have experience in a people management or leadership role, either in the air or on the ground. That seems to me to be a perfectly fair requirement. As you say, most main crew will not be suitable for this role but those who wish to develop in this area will be able to apply for the Future Talent – Crew role or seek a Purser position in an existing fleet.

Furthermore, the CSM jobs are now being advertised externally. I think there will be many applicants.

[Eddy]

But to be honest, CB, what is a CSM? Isn't it effectively the same as a purser? Or atleast a purser working up?

And what's the difference between a purser and a main crew member? A training course! Bingo! So why not judge based on merit rather than experience whether one is suitable for the role?!

I mean that with absolute respect for my purser colleagues - and of course CSD colleagues - who all do an outstanding job.

Considering many - probably most - of the applicants for the main crew roles in MF will be new to flying, it makes sense to have an experienced flyer in the role of CSM. Someone used to the unsociable shift patterns, used to downroute arrangements with hotels etc, used to onboard service and used to the various aspects of CRM and SEP.

A lot of main crew with BA would love the chance to have gained experience as a purser on mainline but, of course, promotion opportunities have been a dream for most, rather than a reality.

Existing, loyal BA crew have been starved of promotion for years and are set to be starved even in the new fleet because of the requirements set by the company.

Many current CSDs and pursers start their careers as main crew, having come from uni or college or school. For many, the only experience they have of managing a team is on the job and in a training school.

So why won't BA train existing crew for this new role, just as they would a new Purser or CSD ?!

[64K]

Maybe the CSM requirements will change once the new fleet is actually up and running. Presumably, it would be beneficial to have people with some experience in terms of as SCCM or people management whilst the new fleet is being introduced?

[Eddy]

I absolutely agree that current SCCMs would make great CSMs on the new fleet, but I cannot help but think the company will struggle to get enough current British Airways SCCMs to apply. We may find experienced British Airways crew, familiar with the SOPs of this business, being stepped over by SCCMs from other, very different airlines.

I guess it's a case of weighing up where the benefits lie :

The company can have existing BA crew who are experience enough to be Pursers (taking planes out in charge on shorthaul, and sometimes on longhaul) and are au fait with BA's SOPs

OR

The company can take on SCCMs from other airlines who may have LESS overall flying experience than BA's own main crew, or ground managers who have done some VCC flying, and send them out leading a crew in totally alien territory

[Caribbean Boy]

Eddy, I don't know why BA is recruiting externally, but the very act of this recruitment could be a clue as to what BA is looking for. Maybe BA wants people who are not just like other Pursers who have been in the company for some years but people who will bring something different as they have experience outside BA.

Another clue could be in one of the required skills:

Proactive in supporting and delivering business decisions, cost savings and a strong understanding of business and market knowledge

As Mixed Fleet must make a big contribution to BA's future profitability, it's important to have people who have business know how. I just have a feeling that anyone, which includes current BA main crew, who can demonstrate business awareness will be of interest to BA.

[davidexba]

oily Bill Francis

A disgrace isn't it?

I know Bill Francis very well. Worked directly for him in his previous role. A good bloke. Very straightforward and definitely not 'oily'.

[Eddy]

Agree again, CB, but as usual BA's advertisment wording makes the recruitment criteria sound very, very restrictive.

We've got pursers on Eurofleet who joined from uni, perhaps, and have been flying four years. They were in the right place at the right time, or just wanted to go for purser (as many others choose not to).

Meanwhile we've got main crew at Heathrow who are 45, have been flying for 20+ years but have chosen not to go for Purser.

Yet the latter cannot go for the CSM role. The former, of course, could.

But what's the difference between the two, other than a Purser course?!

It's the wording of the requirements that is the problem here. They're excluding many good, experienced crew purely because of a technicality.

Originally Posted by davidexba

A disgrace isn't it?

I know Bill Francis very well. Worked directly for him in his previous role. A good bloke. Very straightforward and definitely not 'oily'.

And agree with you, too, David.

I've spoken to Bill a number of times and met him twice (albeit briefly each time). He is a thoroughly decent chap, very approachable and very honest. Bassa's need to refer to him as "oily", or any other less-than-pleasant term, merely shows immaturity and represents a poorly orchestrated attempt to undermine the man.

[Wirbelsturm]

You may need to pause and reflect, what those routes will be and who’s work it will be. The answer, unfortunately, is yours.

Oh, silly me, I thought BA owned the routes, the right to fly them, the aircraft and, through negotiation with sensible Unions, the methods to crew them.

Mind you, it is a BASSA publication.

(I especially like the attempt at punctuation in it.)

[Caribbean Boy]

Eddy, it's not about a Purser's course, it's about the experience of managing people and performing leadership roles.

[Eddy]

I know mate... But if I were on shorthaul three years ago, I could have applied for (and maybe got) the role of Purser. A few weeks later I'd have been flying as an ICCM/SCCM. I might have had ZERO experience of team management.

So why couldn't I - if I even wanted to join Mixed Fleet as a CSM - basically go for the role of Purser (which happens to be called CSM) on this new fleet, just as I would have done on Eurofleet?

As it happens, I have people management skills in my previous role externally to BA, so this is largely hypothetical.

ETA :

(I especially like the attempt at punctuation in it.)

No disrespect to anyone, but this is standard of Bassa's publications. Duncan displayed superior punctuation, spelling and grammar skills in his daily updates, but it looks like whoever used to do the updates before Bedfont has taken over again.

[Caribbean Boy]

Eddy, you can apply for a CSM job if you have:

experience as a Senior Cabin Crew Member (Cabin Service Director, Cabin Manager or Purser) with 12+ months full time or equivalent experience in a SCCM role in the last 5 years of which 3 months is in the last 3 years in BA
Or
36+ months full time or equivalent as current BA Cabin Crew in the last 6 years plus 12+ months experience in a people management or leadership role (internal or external to BA) within the last 6 years, which includes team, performance, and resource management.

[Eddy]

And I've been crew for 6.5 years, before which I ran a leisure travel division within a business travel agency in Aberdeen and had a team of staff (albeit a small one) beneath me. So half a year stands in my way of applying for CSM.

(or more accurately 18 months, because the 12 months needs to have happened within the last 6 years)

But again, I am happy where I am so this is largely hypothetical.

EDIT : re-reading what you've posted above, those requirements are EXTRMEELY restrictive. Basically, I suspect the only people likely to have a shot will be either existing SCCMs with BA or former managers from Atrium Court in Glasgow.

Most other ground managers from BA, either serving or re-deployed to be crew, will be lacking the 36+ months experience as crew. The Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen or Manchester ground staff, for example, who are now flying, may well have the management experience but are only up to about 24 months of flying experience.

[LD12986]

It does seem that Unite are only balloting LGW crew who took part in strike action:

http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/MESSAGE...W_STRIKERS.doc

MESSAGE FOR ALL LGW STRIKERS

If you are a Gatwick crew member from either the BASSA or Amicus sections of Unite, and you took part in the recent industrial action, losing your staff travel, but, you have NOT YET claimed strike pay or have only claimed within the last 7 days, please email: ** ASAP.

This is to ensure you are included on the list of members to be balloted over the coming weeks

[617sqn]

Basically, all the CSD's and pursers can apply but any main crew with more than 6 years service cannot.
Main crew won't be able to go for promotion on mixed fleet and won't be able to afford to transfer and will lose their part time contracts.
The only hope is to stay on current fleets,but for how long?