British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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I do think it is going to be hard for BA to recruit staff to this new fleet. I think some crew may find CSM attractive but that job is only open to people with previous supervisory experience. Many of the cabin crew that would have liked to apply cannot because of this. They will have to apply for the new tallent position which only pays 12K.
I know that alot of people on this forum don't think cabin crew should be payed much but this new fleets rates of pay are very low.
11k + 2.50 duty pay per hour.
So for a ten hour day £25 (before tax) duty pay
For a 3 day trip ( 3 full days) £145 before tax.
Take home pay will be very low and probably qualify for tax credits.
I am not sure that alot of people will find this that attractive particularily crew from other airlines even if they did get the CSM job, they would have to be leaving a supervisory position already in their current airline and I am just not sure these pay rates will attract them.
Anyway I know that some main crew were thinking of moving accross and I am not sure this deal will attract them over now.
I know that alot of people on this forum don't think cabin crew should be payed much but this new fleets rates of pay are very low.
11k + 2.50 duty pay per hour.
So for a ten hour day £25 (before tax) duty pay
For a 3 day trip ( 3 full days) £145 before tax.
Take home pay will be very low and probably qualify for tax credits.
I am not sure that alot of people will find this that attractive particularily crew from other airlines even if they did get the CSM job, they would have to be leaving a supervisory position already in their current airline and I am just not sure these pay rates will attract them.
Anyway I know that some main crew were thinking of moving accross and I am not sure this deal will attract them over now.
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Perhaps this is the way BA can keep the best of the current crew and not the, how do it put it politely, 'lower performers'
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Middy, you are prob correct i saying the only people who can answer this is IFCE, though what License to Fly states ia also probably true, that this enables BA to pick which crew they actually want on MF.
What is confusing is that both sets of temps, both ex and current are being treated differently!!
Anyway, im sure the right people who have the passion for MF will be successful so its all irrelevant in the long run!
What is confusing is that both sets of temps, both ex and current are being treated differently!!
Anyway, im sure the right people who have the passion for MF will be successful so its all irrelevant in the long run!
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I do think it is going to be hard for BA to recruit staff to this new fleet.
Take home pay will be very low and probably qualify for tax credits.
I am not sure that alot of people will find this that attractive
I am not sure that alot of people will find this that attractive
Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne is set to outline the deepest spending cuts in a generation in an emergency budget next week, which may hamper the recovery after two quarters of growth. Public-sector job losses may push unemployment close to 3 million by 2012, according to the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development.
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Being a more moderate crew member who did not strike and wanted a union who negotiated I do find it upsetting how some people who post on here seem to be reveling at this offer and almost rubbing your hands with glee at how bad it is.
You pilots won't be so happy when you are unable to find any crew who can afford to go out for a drink with you.
You pilots won't be so happy when you are unable to find any crew who can afford to go out for a drink with you.
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I wouldn't assume that everyone "revelling in it" is flight crew. Remember that this is an anonymous forum...
It is sad to see such a low wage, but the job is a popular one, and market wages are what they are.
At least it seems to be duty hours and not flight hours, so scope for around £15k might exist, all in, which is the equivalent of £18k in the real world once the lower tax rate on duty pay is taken into effect.
I can see quite a number of experienced customer service-oriented people being attracted to such a role.
It is sad to see such a low wage, but the job is a popular one, and market wages are what they are.
At least it seems to be duty hours and not flight hours, so scope for around £15k might exist, all in, which is the equivalent of £18k in the real world once the lower tax rate on duty pay is taken into effect.
I can see quite a number of experienced customer service-oriented people being attracted to such a role.
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You pilots won't be so happy when you are unable to find any crew who can afford to go out for a drink with you.
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It has absolutely NOTHING to do with CRM. This is the problem today in BA. Cabin crew think that CRM is about being fluffy and nice to each other. It is not. It is about the Captain getting the most from HIS/HER crew.
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Exactly. And you don't achieve that through telling people that you have no interest in their companionship for the period in which you operate together as a crew.
CRM is all about the cognitive and interpersonal skills needed to achieve the goal of getting people to do their jobs properly and get the most from the crew. What you don't seem to understand is that you are dealing with people and not machines in that process, through that very statement on your perceived value on those people.
CRM is all about the cognitive and interpersonal skills needed to achieve the goal of getting people to do their jobs properly and get the most from the crew. What you don't seem to understand is that you are dealing with people and not machines in that process, through that very statement on your perceived value on those people.
Diplomacy is very difficult when you are constantly insulted and denigrated - purely for doing a job you love!!!
I still go out of my way to treat ALL cabin crew members in an equal and fair manner. Unfortunately, at present there are some seriously miserable cabin crew nenbers whose behaviour borders on the insolent and insulting. That is NOT acceptable behaviour!
I take no personal pleasure in seeing the angst and annoyance at a lot of our genuinely decent cabin crew. Their opinions and feelings have value to me because they are usually the people who are a pleasure to fly with and in working as 'one team' the pax get a better experience.
On the other hand I have no sympathy for the militants who have caused so much anger amongst 99% of BA employees at their totally intansigent and selfish attitude throughout the whole dispute. It is TOTALLY that intransigent and selfish attitude that has brought about the very swift birth of NF.
I still go out of my way to treat ALL cabin crew members in an equal and fair manner. Unfortunately, at present there are some seriously miserable cabin crew nenbers whose behaviour borders on the insolent and insulting. That is NOT acceptable behaviour!
I take no personal pleasure in seeing the angst and annoyance at a lot of our genuinely decent cabin crew. Their opinions and feelings have value to me because they are usually the people who are a pleasure to fly with and in working as 'one team' the pax get a better experience.
On the other hand I have no sympathy for the militants who have caused so much anger amongst 99% of BA employees at their totally intansigent and selfish attitude throughout the whole dispute. It is TOTALLY that intransigent and selfish attitude that has brought about the very swift birth of NF.
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As an outsider working for another airline, it seems no one is uncomfortable with being judge jury and executioner.
Willey is happy to keep this fight going, why? Is it because in reality the company is not in danger of going bust? Does he need to win this fight for what comes next?
If I were him I’d know that winning this would allow me to roll over every other group of workers in the company at a time of my choosing. The pilots are not unassailable either.
The 40 odd PSU personnel who have just volunteered to be the next VCC obviously don’t see what happened in Spain as a template for the rest of the UK. I’m sure you’ll all be happy working for Swissport when the time comes. Doesn’t Willey have a large stake in that? They have just trialled reduced staff at the gates…yet amazingly no alarm bells rang for the PSU volunteers’. Oh well back to watching.
Willey is happy to keep this fight going, why? Is it because in reality the company is not in danger of going bust? Does he need to win this fight for what comes next?
If I were him I’d know that winning this would allow me to roll over every other group of workers in the company at a time of my choosing. The pilots are not unassailable either.
The 40 odd PSU personnel who have just volunteered to be the next VCC obviously don’t see what happened in Spain as a template for the rest of the UK. I’m sure you’ll all be happy working for Swissport when the time comes. Doesn’t Willey have a large stake in that? They have just trialled reduced staff at the gates…yet amazingly no alarm bells rang for the PSU volunteers’. Oh well back to watching.
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As an outsider working for another airline, it seems no one is uncomfortable with being judge jury and executioner.
Willey is happy to keep this fight going, why? Is it because in reality the company is not in danger of going bust? Does he need to win this fight for what comes next?
If I were him I’d know that winning this would allow me to roll over every other group of workers in the company at a time of my choosing. The pilots are not unassailable either.
The 40 odd PSU personnel who have just volunteered to be the next VCC obviously don’t see what happened in Spain as a template for the rest of the UK. I’m sure you’ll all be happy working for Swissport when the time comes. Doesn’t Willey have a large stake in that? They have just trialled reduced staff at the gates…yet amazingly no alarm bells rang for the PSU volunteers’. Oh well back to watching.
If "Swissport" is next on the agenda then so be it. Im not trying to stir things here but if this is the next step in "cutting costs and maximising shareholder value" then I wont stand in the way.
Its not just in BA but probably right across the board that a good percentage of "PSU" or "Customer Services" "insert" are taking home upward of 2.5k a month.....and the airline industry cannot afford that. Maybe in the past...but certainly not now.
Dont get me wrong I think it would be wonderful if "Everyone" could win but unfortunately....these sorts of salaries cannot be maintained.
Willey is happy to keep this fight going, why? Is it because in reality the company is not in danger of going bust? Does he need to win this fight for what comes next?
If I were him I’d know that winning this would allow me to roll over every other group of workers in the company at a time of my choosing. The pilots are not unassailable either.
The 40 odd PSU personnel who have just volunteered to be the next VCC obviously don’t see what happened in Spain as a template for the rest of the UK. I’m sure you’ll all be happy working for Swissport when the time comes. Doesn’t Willey have a large stake in that? They have just trialled reduced staff at the gates…yet amazingly no alarm bells rang for the PSU volunteers’. Oh well back to watching.
If "Swissport" is next on the agenda then so be it. Im not trying to stir things here but if this is the next step in "cutting costs and maximising shareholder value" then I wont stand in the way.
Its not just in BA but probably right across the board that a good percentage of "PSU" or "Customer Services" "insert" are taking home upward of 2.5k a month.....and the airline industry cannot afford that. Maybe in the past...but certainly not now.
Dont get me wrong I think it would be wonderful if "Everyone" could win but unfortunately....these sorts of salaries cannot be maintained.
Last edited by clublemon; 24th Jun 2010 at 11:05.
I think many BA staff recognise that times are changing, and that some of us will be changing work practices or be unemployed in the future.
Unfortunately, some other staff don't.
I think that they are in for an unpleasant surprise, despite being warned by the management and their colleagues.
I do wonder what these people do in their spare time if they don't read the papers or watch the news? It doesn't take a degree to see that future oil prices, the rise of the Arab carriers, Open Skies, open skies, increased aviation taxes and the toughest economic and demographic conditions for a couple of generations are all going against the airline industry and BA in particular.
Just saying "No" and stamping your feet isn't going to stop the changes.
Unfortunately, some other staff don't.
I think that they are in for an unpleasant surprise, despite being warned by the management and their colleagues.
I do wonder what these people do in their spare time if they don't read the papers or watch the news? It doesn't take a degree to see that future oil prices, the rise of the Arab carriers, Open Skies, open skies, increased aviation taxes and the toughest economic and demographic conditions for a couple of generations are all going against the airline industry and BA in particular.
Just saying "No" and stamping your feet isn't going to stop the changes.
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You pilots won't be so happy when you are unable to find any crew who can afford to go out for a drink with you.
I don't think not having cash will make any difference to people's drinking habits.
I did a Singapore recently (yes, a Singapore
) and we had a temp on the crew. £11k basic plus £2.54 (or whatever) and hour. He was out every night for the full duration. If people want to go for a drink, they will. It's also why Gatwick remains such a sociable fleet despite the low earnings.
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Max cont - your position is both financially naive and alarmist as to the actions of those trying to run the company.
BA, and most airlines do run a high risk of going bust. It is a cutthroat market, and many have failed in the past. BA's finances are not exactly rosy, with huge pension and debt liabilities. As Greece, Lehman and AIG prove, if your investors lose faith in you, the ground is not far away at all. When the IFCE cost base is so far removed from that of the competition, management have to act.
Management will always be looking for a way to cut costs - one would be naive to think otherwise. It is how companies survive and thrive in the long-term, and their employees will benefit as well to the extent that there is a company to pay their pension, and a company that can employ them, even raising salaries in future if the company achieves efficiencies better than competitors.
Unions seem to fail to realise that it is a symbiotic relationship - without the company, there is no industrial-corporatist state these days to keep them going. The days for the industrial-social collective are long gone and discredited - we could not afford it in the 1960s and we cannot afford it now as taxpayers.
If the company can survive and compete against those such as Emirates that continue to take the lead in operating and market efficiencies, the company might survive in the long-run. If not, then it is time for everyone to retrain.
BA, and most airlines do run a high risk of going bust. It is a cutthroat market, and many have failed in the past. BA's finances are not exactly rosy, with huge pension and debt liabilities. As Greece, Lehman and AIG prove, if your investors lose faith in you, the ground is not far away at all. When the IFCE cost base is so far removed from that of the competition, management have to act.
Management will always be looking for a way to cut costs - one would be naive to think otherwise. It is how companies survive and thrive in the long-term, and their employees will benefit as well to the extent that there is a company to pay their pension, and a company that can employ them, even raising salaries in future if the company achieves efficiencies better than competitors.
Unions seem to fail to realise that it is a symbiotic relationship - without the company, there is no industrial-corporatist state these days to keep them going. The days for the industrial-social collective are long gone and discredited - we could not afford it in the 1960s and we cannot afford it now as taxpayers.
If the company can survive and compete against those such as Emirates that continue to take the lead in operating and market efficiencies, the company might survive in the long-run. If not, then it is time for everyone to retrain.
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hunterboy, I believe some of you are going to be unemployed because of what you do.
Willey has plans for you and your helping him achieve that.
Times are a changing, but notice, only for the workforce…not for Willey and his cohorts’
No boss worth his salt is going to forgo the opportunity to savage the T&C’s of his workforce while he can blame it on the economic situation. The sweetener is he then reaps huge bonuses in figures that would set you up for life.
If you guys believe that working for subsistence salary is a good business model you’re deluded. BA will stand on its business model, not because it pays its CC 7K or whatever.
Re-Heat, No I’m fully aware of the driving force for CEO’s in business.
I think you will find that unions are fully aware of the symbiotic relationship they have with the companies…it seems to me it’s the bosses that have forgotten.
I also know that once T&C’s are lost they are gone for good. It matters not one jot about any future saving the company makes, or any sudden economic upturn. The work force will not see anything for their efforts or sacrifices. There will be no huge bonuses on offer or golden parachutes when they move on to pastures new.
CEO’s think in 5 year terms. For them that is long term. That’s usually how long they hang around. I’ve watched many come and go, the story is the same. Screw everything and everyone, get your bonuses then move on.
Willey has plans for you and your helping him achieve that.
Times are a changing, but notice, only for the workforce…not for Willey and his cohorts’
No boss worth his salt is going to forgo the opportunity to savage the T&C’s of his workforce while he can blame it on the economic situation. The sweetener is he then reaps huge bonuses in figures that would set you up for life.
If you guys believe that working for subsistence salary is a good business model you’re deluded. BA will stand on its business model, not because it pays its CC 7K or whatever.
Re-Heat, No I’m fully aware of the driving force for CEO’s in business.
I think you will find that unions are fully aware of the symbiotic relationship they have with the companies…it seems to me it’s the bosses that have forgotten.
I also know that once T&C’s are lost they are gone for good. It matters not one jot about any future saving the company makes, or any sudden economic upturn. The work force will not see anything for their efforts or sacrifices. There will be no huge bonuses on offer or golden parachutes when they move on to pastures new.
CEO’s think in 5 year terms. For them that is long term. That’s usually how long they hang around. I’ve watched many come and go, the story is the same. Screw everything and everyone, get your bonuses then move on.
Found this at Walesonline.co.uk but I suspect it will be elsewhere too.
WalesOnline - News - UK News - BA recruits new staff to cut costs
1250 new crew in the first year! A bold move!
Sounds like it will be constituted cabin crews too. A bit tricky to be flexible with at first, but eventually they will become the majority, and I suppose the need for constituted crews will stop.
I have found that some cabin crew have other incomes, so it is often bugger all to do with what their cabin crew salary is, whether they come out for a drink/dinner or not. Many of them are very entrepreneurial!
WalesOnline - News - UK News - BA recruits new staff to cut costs
BA recruits new staff to cut costs 24 June 2010
British Airways has launched a recruitment drive for new cabin crew under plans to cut costs as it faces the prospect of a fresh wave of strikes.
The airline advertised for cabin crew to operate in a separate fleet from existing employees, saying it could no longer afford the difference in crew costs at Heathrow airport, which were "way out of line" with its competitors.
BA said it aims to recruit 1,250 new crew in the first year and estimates that in 10 years' time, new crew will represent around 40% of the total.
Total earnings for new crew will vary according to salary, duty hours and performance and will be similar to current Gatwick rates, which are lower than at Heathrow.
A BA spokesman said: "We have suffered back-to-back record financial losses and need to continue making permanent changes to our cost base to ensure our long-term survival.
"It is common knowledge that our Heathrow cabin crew costs are way out of line with our competitors and much more than our cabin crew costs at Gatwick. We can no longer afford this cost difference.
"In our discussions with Unite over the last 18 months, we have been absolutely open about our plans for future recruitment. We have provided regular assurances to the union and our crew that these changes will not alter the individual contractual terms and conditions for current crew."
BA said current crew rates on short-haul routes were around £25,700 at Heathrow and £18,200 at Gatwick while for long-haul routes it was almost £35,000 at Heathrow.
The new crew will fly on a separate fleet, in new cabin crew teams and not mixed with current crew. They will fly on both long and short-haul routes, said BA, adding that current crew have the option to apply to join the new crew fleet.
Unite announced earlier this week that it will hold a fresh strike ballot among its 12,000 cabin crew members unless there is a breakthrough to their deadlocked row with the airline by next Tuesday. Voting will take a month, raising the threat of walkouts in the busy month of August. Unite has already taken 22 days of strike action since March, costing the airline more than £150 million
British Airways has launched a recruitment drive for new cabin crew under plans to cut costs as it faces the prospect of a fresh wave of strikes.
The airline advertised for cabin crew to operate in a separate fleet from existing employees, saying it could no longer afford the difference in crew costs at Heathrow airport, which were "way out of line" with its competitors.
BA said it aims to recruit 1,250 new crew in the first year and estimates that in 10 years' time, new crew will represent around 40% of the total.
Total earnings for new crew will vary according to salary, duty hours and performance and will be similar to current Gatwick rates, which are lower than at Heathrow.
A BA spokesman said: "We have suffered back-to-back record financial losses and need to continue making permanent changes to our cost base to ensure our long-term survival.
"It is common knowledge that our Heathrow cabin crew costs are way out of line with our competitors and much more than our cabin crew costs at Gatwick. We can no longer afford this cost difference.
"In our discussions with Unite over the last 18 months, we have been absolutely open about our plans for future recruitment. We have provided regular assurances to the union and our crew that these changes will not alter the individual contractual terms and conditions for current crew."
BA said current crew rates on short-haul routes were around £25,700 at Heathrow and £18,200 at Gatwick while for long-haul routes it was almost £35,000 at Heathrow.
The new crew will fly on a separate fleet, in new cabin crew teams and not mixed with current crew. They will fly on both long and short-haul routes, said BA, adding that current crew have the option to apply to join the new crew fleet.
Unite announced earlier this week that it will hold a fresh strike ballot among its 12,000 cabin crew members unless there is a breakthrough to their deadlocked row with the airline by next Tuesday. Voting will take a month, raising the threat of walkouts in the busy month of August. Unite has already taken 22 days of strike action since March, costing the airline more than £150 million
Sounds like it will be constituted cabin crews too. A bit tricky to be flexible with at first, but eventually they will become the majority, and I suppose the need for constituted crews will stop.
I don't think not having cash will make any difference to people's drinking habits.
I did a Singapore recently (yes, a Singapore) and we had a temp on the crew. £11k basic plus £2.54 (or whatever) and hour. He was out every night for the full duration.
If people want to go for a drink, they will. It's also why Gatwick remains such a sociable fleet despite the low earnings.
I did a Singapore recently (yes, a Singapore
) and we had a temp on the crew. £11k basic plus £2.54 (or whatever) and hour. He was out every night for the full duration. If people want to go for a drink, they will. It's also why Gatwick remains such a sociable fleet despite the low earnings.
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Selective ballot
I'm not cabin crew, but am in the industry (ATCO), so please allow me one question as the subject seems to have been skipped over because of the new vacancy adverst...
If Unite are selective in who they ballot, how will this work? What will they count as a percentage?
i.e. lets just say that UNITE BA cabin crew numbers are 10,000.
Lets also say that 5,000 are balloted, and 5000 are not.
Lets then say that 3,000 vote in favour of a strike.
Does this then count as a 60% 'yes' vote (i.e. 3000 out of 5000) or does it really count as a 30% 'yes' vote (i.e. 3000 out of 10000)?
I really cannot understand how the union can decide who is eligible to vote and who isn't when all unite ba CC members are part of the union. I personally think that legally, it will be very easy to challenge if they were to claim 60% in the above example as it is not a true indication of the BA CC membership.
Balloting only some of your members is not only undemocratic, but it makes a mockery of the word 'union' and the principles behind unions.
Any reply on the legality will be appreciated - I will now retire and won't post again.
Thanks
If Unite are selective in who they ballot, how will this work? What will they count as a percentage?
i.e. lets just say that UNITE BA cabin crew numbers are 10,000.
Lets also say that 5,000 are balloted, and 5000 are not.
Lets then say that 3,000 vote in favour of a strike.
Does this then count as a 60% 'yes' vote (i.e. 3000 out of 5000) or does it really count as a 30% 'yes' vote (i.e. 3000 out of 10000)?
I really cannot understand how the union can decide who is eligible to vote and who isn't when all unite ba CC members are part of the union. I personally think that legally, it will be very easy to challenge if they were to claim 60% in the above example as it is not a true indication of the BA CC membership.
Balloting only some of your members is not only undemocratic, but it makes a mockery of the word 'union' and the principles behind unions.
Any reply on the legality will be appreciated - I will now retire and won't post again.
Thanks