British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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IB crew have conducted a poll and 80% of them have said that they will go on strike if WW takes over
Perhaps someone can supply us with a URL or some other link to this "poll"?
After all, if the report is truthful, I think that Willie Walsh ought to be told.
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I suspect its another unscientific poll conducted by crew commuting home on Iberia. The other places are full of these things, like "70% OF CREW WENT ON STRIKE", based on a militant trooping round the aircraft demanding to know who'd been on strike. It doesn't seem to have occurred to them people might lie in order to get rid of them.
Anyway, does it really matter of 80% of them say they'll go on strike? BASSA tell us that 80+% of BA cabin crew will go on strike and the airline seems to run better without them.
Anyway, does it really matter of 80% of them say they'll go on strike? BASSA tell us that 80+% of BA cabin crew will go on strike and the airline seems to run better without them.
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Time for another reality check...
'Most of the other employees have a union which not WW is after. Their union is not being busted by management.'
Um... we are talking about Unite, right ? After all, Whilst BASSA and CC89 are two groupings within Unite, neither group is able to cnduct separate negotiations with BA, All agreements have to be with Unite. If BA wanted to 'bust' Unite, surely this would have been manifest in previous negotiations with other bargaining groups, after all, there are some 15,000 Unite members who are not cabin crew working for BA. Oh, to save you the maths, that's half of the rest of us non-cabin crew staff.
'WW may be well-regarded by the board but it does not mean that he is well-regarded by the workforce.'
Not true. Have you been to any of the staff forums he's been at ? OK so not a lot of people fit in the Waterside theatre - can't remember the seating capacity but it's several hundred. Never seen him fail to get everyone onside. I come from the land of bean-counters (Finance & Performance). The only time there was disquiet about the way that the company was being run was when the major reshuffle took place. The way that was done was counter to the way that BA had reorganised in the past. That said, what was needed was decisive action and the old way of a more concensus based decision making would have taken too long. Better to bite the bullet.
'A majority means nothing. A majority can be wrong.'
Yes, very true. Once upon a time, the majority view was that the earth was flat and if you went far enough you'd fall off the edge. What disproved that was hard, evidence based, logical reasoning. Sadly, the noises coming from BASSA are none of this.
Why was the strike action so ineffectual ? Look at the numbers. Now I'm led to believe that the current cabin crew workforce is around 13,000 folk. Of this number, 10,000 are Unite members. Of this 10,000 about 6,000 voted for strike action. So before you get down to the number who will walk as opposed to just vote, there are probably slightly more people who didn't vote for strike action than did. For a strike to be effective, you need to be able to guarantee that at least 75% of the workforce will down tools. BASSA never got anywhere near that figure. Now, look at it from the individual's perspective. They may have voted for strike action, but when they found that the likelihood was that the company would still run a successful operation, it saps the resolve. It's even tougher when you work out that there isn't the mass support that the union is trumpeting. As soon as it was abundantly clear that at best Unite had got only the support of 60% of its members, strike action was doomed to fail.
Why was the support not stronger ? Maybe the '12 days at Xmas' had something to do with it. Maybe the fact that crew were working to the new numbers and found it not that much tougher contributed. Now Unite can call for another ballot on another cause, but unless it's something which impacts all cabin crew and not just benefits a few, I can't see it being a rip-roaring success - although I could be wrong. Put it like this, if the action had happened in my area and I had previously voted for strike action, but for whatever reason had elected to work normally and was now presented with the reasons that Unite are putting forward for further IA, I'd vote it down.
Um... we are talking about Unite, right ? After all, Whilst BASSA and CC89 are two groupings within Unite, neither group is able to cnduct separate negotiations with BA, All agreements have to be with Unite. If BA wanted to 'bust' Unite, surely this would have been manifest in previous negotiations with other bargaining groups, after all, there are some 15,000 Unite members who are not cabin crew working for BA. Oh, to save you the maths, that's half of the rest of us non-cabin crew staff.
'WW may be well-regarded by the board but it does not mean that he is well-regarded by the workforce.'
Not true. Have you been to any of the staff forums he's been at ? OK so not a lot of people fit in the Waterside theatre - can't remember the seating capacity but it's several hundred. Never seen him fail to get everyone onside. I come from the land of bean-counters (Finance & Performance). The only time there was disquiet about the way that the company was being run was when the major reshuffle took place. The way that was done was counter to the way that BA had reorganised in the past. That said, what was needed was decisive action and the old way of a more concensus based decision making would have taken too long. Better to bite the bullet.
'A majority means nothing. A majority can be wrong.'
Yes, very true. Once upon a time, the majority view was that the earth was flat and if you went far enough you'd fall off the edge. What disproved that was hard, evidence based, logical reasoning. Sadly, the noises coming from BASSA are none of this.
Why was the strike action so ineffectual ? Look at the numbers. Now I'm led to believe that the current cabin crew workforce is around 13,000 folk. Of this number, 10,000 are Unite members. Of this 10,000 about 6,000 voted for strike action. So before you get down to the number who will walk as opposed to just vote, there are probably slightly more people who didn't vote for strike action than did. For a strike to be effective, you need to be able to guarantee that at least 75% of the workforce will down tools. BASSA never got anywhere near that figure. Now, look at it from the individual's perspective. They may have voted for strike action, but when they found that the likelihood was that the company would still run a successful operation, it saps the resolve. It's even tougher when you work out that there isn't the mass support that the union is trumpeting. As soon as it was abundantly clear that at best Unite had got only the support of 60% of its members, strike action was doomed to fail.
Why was the support not stronger ? Maybe the '12 days at Xmas' had something to do with it. Maybe the fact that crew were working to the new numbers and found it not that much tougher contributed. Now Unite can call for another ballot on another cause, but unless it's something which impacts all cabin crew and not just benefits a few, I can't see it being a rip-roaring success - although I could be wrong. Put it like this, if the action had happened in my area and I had previously voted for strike action, but for whatever reason had elected to work normally and was now presented with the reasons that Unite are putting forward for further IA, I'd vote it down.
Last edited by Colonel White; 21st Jun 2010 at 22:17. Reason: typos- the bane of my life :)
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BA will never be able to run a full schedule. But, I believe it when I see it. In such case I want proof that they are fully crewed with passengers and not just cargo or even worse, empty.
Maybe there haven't been any fresh calls after VCC because they know it won't help. Maybe the interest previously was so low that they are going abroad.
BASSA are making sure that any proposal includes that we will be fully protected but BA are not wanting this.
Unite recommends rejection in BA cabin crew ballot and challenges BA's motives for settlement
No mention of that when Unite recommended rejection.
IB crew have conducted a poll and 80% of them have said that they will go on strike if WW takes over.
"47.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot."
And as someone else said....
"I'll believe it when I see it."
Must be more BASSA spin.
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MissM
USA VCC need not cost any more then UK based. After the initial training in UK they can be based in US to cover BA services.
When a BA US service leaves Lhr the number of VCC are known, and can be changed to fresh crew for the return trip to UK and visa-versa. Once up and running these people can be based in USA.
No different to UK crew slipping in USA.
When a BA US service leaves Lhr the number of VCC are known, and can be changed to fresh crew for the return trip to UK and visa-versa. Once up and running these people can be based in USA.
No different to UK crew slipping in USA.
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It might be instructive to see what BA could have done:
1) They could have issued 90 day notice to all crew and a new contract. (source BASSA's QC in the High Court)
2) They could have imposed minimum crewing levels outside strike days. crewing levels aren't contractual (High Court again)
3) They could have applied for union de recognition on the basis of lack of support within the bargaining unit.
4) They could have taken away staff travel from all CC with the proviso that you get it back when you sign a new contract.
None of these have happened, are these the actions of an employer who wants to break the union? All BA (and the rest of us) want is an adult 21st century relationship with the union where common problems are recognised and shared.
1) They could have issued 90 day notice to all crew and a new contract. (source BASSA's QC in the High Court)
2) They could have imposed minimum crewing levels outside strike days. crewing levels aren't contractual (High Court again)
3) They could have applied for union de recognition on the basis of lack of support within the bargaining unit.
4) They could have taken away staff travel from all CC with the proviso that you get it back when you sign a new contract.
None of these have happened, are these the actions of an employer who wants to break the union? All BA (and the rest of us) want is an adult 21st century relationship with the union where common problems are recognised and shared.
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Im now getting tired of hearing at work, "WW is trying to bust the union!, well he wont !!", as i have said to many other crew, I dont think he is trying to bust the union, he is a old union man himself so therefore understands the benefit of having unions in a large company like BA. What he does want, without any doubt to to take control of the day to day running of BA IFCE, an area that BASSA/CC89 have too much involvement. And its this that senior Bassa/CC89 reps dont like as it removes them from their nice little social club in CRC office flexing the union musscle!.
I have asked many times without answer, so i'll ask here, what is the role of the union? :
1.To protect jobs ?
2.To protect T&C's ?
3.To run the buisness ?
Personally I think its 1, followed by 2 but not at the cost of 1, but never 3 unless invited by the company.
I was involved in a conversation last week when a CC member told me she thought is was good I had not been a VCC, and said thank you for not doing her job
,we had a grown up and informative conversation which was very refreshing and I was starting to think maybe some of the bad press the strikers are getting is wrong .But, then when I told her that because of her union strike as flt crew i had lost a number of trips and therefore a big chunk of allowances costing my pocket too, she just replied "well you basic is high enough, you can afford it" 
. I was amazed how someone who at first appeared reasonable and educated enough to be able to talk about all the isssues at BA would then just cast a flipant remark as she did. A true BASSA/CC89 suporter 
.
This type of selfish attitude is Im affraid what has turned off the support for the strike, from other working groups..
I have asked many times without answer, so i'll ask here, what is the role of the union? :
1.To protect jobs ?
2.To protect T&C's ?
3.To run the buisness ?
Personally I think its 1, followed by 2 but not at the cost of 1, but never 3 unless invited by the company.
I was involved in a conversation last week when a CC member told me she thought is was good I had not been a VCC, and said thank you for not doing her job
,we had a grown up and informative conversation which was very refreshing and I was starting to think maybe some of the bad press the strikers are getting is wrong .But, then when I told her that because of her union strike as flt crew i had lost a number of trips and therefore a big chunk of allowances costing my pocket too, she just replied "well you basic is high enough, you can afford it" . I was amazed how someone who at first appeared reasonable and educated enough to be able to talk about all the isssues at BA would then just cast a flipant remark as she did. A true BASSA/CC89 suporter .This type of selfish attitude is Im affraid what has turned off the support for the strike, from other working groups..
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There are some very simple reasons why the company is looking for VCC from abroad - and none of them is to do with a lack of volunteers from the UK.
On a recent trip our VCC member usually worked in a department of 9. It used to be 15, but (BASSA take note) has been reduced in size to help the company compete.
Of those 9, 6 had volunteered. Only our colleague had been released by her manager as the department was unable to spare anyone else.
Even so, our colleague was still replying to emails and texts whilst downroute.
Lessons? Everyone has taken a hit recently. There are plenty of VCC volunteers who can't be used. VCC's will not find their day jobs will disappear as the company realises it can do without them - indeed quite the opposite.
On a recent trip our VCC member usually worked in a department of 9. It used to be 15, but (BASSA take note) has been reduced in size to help the company compete.
Of those 9, 6 had volunteered. Only our colleague had been released by her manager as the department was unable to spare anyone else.
Even so, our colleague was still replying to emails and texts whilst downroute.
Lessons? Everyone has taken a hit recently. There are plenty of VCC volunteers who can't be used. VCC's will not find their day jobs will disappear as the company realises it can do without them - indeed quite the opposite.
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"A majority means nothing, a majority can be wrong" - Miss M
Like the majority that voted "YES" to a strike and "NO" to accepting the last proposal? Selective opinions?
A couple of other things,
Would Iberia crew voting to strike on the basis of it's employers choice of CEO, be legal? I've got my doubts.
BA Breaking agreements? Not to any degree, in my experience (As SCCM). Maybe during a crisis (extreme weather, vocanic ash, strike), when BASSA decides it's going to sulk and be totally unco-operative, but frankly you can't expect an employer and all it's customers to be held hostage in such situations. Contrast this to the way our (oh, and I just know you are not going to like this!) flight crew colleagues do business, where they suspend their union rules in such situations and work to the scheme rules to get flights/customers/crew home, or somewhere more convenient. BALPA are ok with it. They have a much more mature relationship with BA for the common good. Oh how I wish we had the same. Negociating a much more flexible and realistic disruption agreement would save BA millions, yet affect individual crew members, what twice, three times a year? What did BASSA do? Scaremonger with tales of crew being on permenantly flexible rosters. It's so infantile and so frustrating to those of us that want representatives that put crew, customers and the company all before themselves.
That's why I get so many crew now curious about the PCCC.
Like the majority that voted "YES" to a strike and "NO" to accepting the last proposal? Selective opinions?
A couple of other things,
Would Iberia crew voting to strike on the basis of it's employers choice of CEO, be legal? I've got my doubts.
BA Breaking agreements? Not to any degree, in my experience (As SCCM). Maybe during a crisis (extreme weather, vocanic ash, strike), when BASSA decides it's going to sulk and be totally unco-operative, but frankly you can't expect an employer and all it's customers to be held hostage in such situations. Contrast this to the way our (oh, and I just know you are not going to like this!) flight crew colleagues do business, where they suspend their union rules in such situations and work to the scheme rules to get flights/customers/crew home, or somewhere more convenient. BALPA are ok with it. They have a much more mature relationship with BA for the common good. Oh how I wish we had the same. Negociating a much more flexible and realistic disruption agreement would save BA millions, yet affect individual crew members, what twice, three times a year? What did BASSA do? Scaremonger with tales of crew being on permenantly flexible rosters. It's so infantile and so frustrating to those of us that want representatives that put crew, customers and the company all before themselves.
That's why I get so many crew now curious about the PCCC.
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BBC reporting the same
BBC News - BA strike: Unite union to ballot members if no progress
BBC News - BA strike: Unite union to ballot members if no progress
Unite said that it was giving BA until 29 June to "demonstrate that it is willing to negotiate a solution to the fresh issues between the parties - or will ballot its members for strike action".
It said the new issues under dispute were threefold: BA's use of other employees to cover as cabin crew; the removal of travel perks from crew who went on strike; and "vindictive, disproportionate and unnecessary disciplinary action" taken by BA against some of its crew members.
"Once again, we say to BA: Do not seek conflict," said Brian Boyd, Unite national officer for civil aviation.
"Drop the tough talk and work with us to deliver the change needed for the future and preserve the standards associated with this great airline."
It said the new issues under dispute were threefold: BA's use of other employees to cover as cabin crew; the removal of travel perks from crew who went on strike; and "vindictive, disproportionate and unnecessary disciplinary action" taken by BA against some of its crew members.
"Once again, we say to BA: Do not seek conflict," said Brian Boyd, Unite national officer for civil aviation.
"Drop the tough talk and work with us to deliver the change needed for the future and preserve the standards associated with this great airline."
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Unite has today notified British Airways that it intends to open a ballot for strike action among Heathrow cabin crew. The ballot will open on Tuesday June 29 and close on Tuesday July 27, raising the prospect of strikes at Heathrow during the busy summer period.
Brirish Airways has said,
"Once again, Unite and its cabin crew branch Bassa have demonstrated their selfish lack of concern for our customers and their own colleagues.
Their apparent wish to target the summer holidays of tens of thousands of families is deplorable.
However, should there be any further industrial action, we are determined to keep even more of our customers flying.
We will strengthen our contingency plans and aim to fly from Heathrow 100 per cent of longhaul operations and a substantial proportion of shorthaul services in addition to our full normal programme from Gatwick and London City.
Unite has shown its weakness by excluding from this ballot Gatwick cabin crew, who have never believed its claims that the company's actions have been unreasonable. Unite and Bassa are interested only in representing those who accept their narrow view of the world.
We believe our crew would vote to accept our offer to Unite which guarantees pay rises for two years, protects existing crew's terms and conditions and leaves Heathrow crew the best-rewarded in the UK airline industry".
Brirish Airways has said,
"Once again, Unite and its cabin crew branch Bassa have demonstrated their selfish lack of concern for our customers and their own colleagues.
Their apparent wish to target the summer holidays of tens of thousands of families is deplorable.
However, should there be any further industrial action, we are determined to keep even more of our customers flying.
We will strengthen our contingency plans and aim to fly from Heathrow 100 per cent of longhaul operations and a substantial proportion of shorthaul services in addition to our full normal programme from Gatwick and London City.
Unite has shown its weakness by excluding from this ballot Gatwick cabin crew, who have never believed its claims that the company's actions have been unreasonable. Unite and Bassa are interested only in representing those who accept their narrow view of the world.
We believe our crew would vote to accept our offer to Unite which guarantees pay rises for two years, protects existing crew's terms and conditions and leaves Heathrow crew the best-rewarded in the UK airline industry".
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Unite has today notified British Airways that it intends to open a ballot for strike action among Heathrow cabin crew.
"Gerrymandering is a form of boundary delimitation (redistricting) in which electoral district or constituency boundaries are deliberately modified for electoral purposes, thereby producing a contorted or unusual shape. The resulting district is known as a gerrymander; however, that word can also refer to the process."
Presumably the "Unite" name is now being used ironically, as they are clearly going to play one base off against the other.
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First they expect LGW to take a pay cut to subsidise LHR CSDs. Now they are excluding LGW all together, when the outcome impacts on them.
Absolutely appalling.
Gatwick crew urgently need to sign up to the Professional Cabin Crew Council at www.mypccc.co.uk so that they can once again gain a voice in all of this.
Absolutely appalling.
Gatwick crew urgently need to sign up to the Professional Cabin Crew Council at www.mypccc.co.uk so that they can once again gain a voice in all of this.
Junior trash
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Oh dear.
Unite appear to have run a consultative ballot on the pension proposals with their BA members. They have forgotten to ask the BASSA members though and the other departments have approved the deal by a large majority.
BASSA Chair says
Looks like even Unite dont trust the BASSA members to be sensible.
Unite appear to have run a consultative ballot on the pension proposals with their BA members. They have forgotten to ask the BASSA members though and the other departments have approved the deal by a large majority.
BASSA Chair says
All departments had a consultative ballot. All voted in favour as recommended by the Union.
That is why I have asked Unite to explain what happened to ours.
That is why I have asked Unite to explain what happened to ours.