British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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dwshimoda
You seem to be getting an hourly flight pay instead of meal allowances. Why should you have a language payment on a typical charter route where most of the passengers are British and assumingly speak English? No hotel to stay in either as you are operating a there and back, which seems to be the norm with some airlines. BA also operate a fair share of there and back flights.
Could you explain what you mean by disruption allowance, something I have never heard of, and what you mean by "less duty pay than you get tax free".
Maybe if the cabin crew at your company were represented by a strong union similar as BASSA they could have enjoyed similiar terms and conditions. ST is also an issue which our union have negotiated for us and would be the responsibility of your union to take care.
MrBunker
Your question has been answered several times.
You seem to be getting an hourly flight pay instead of meal allowances. Why should you have a language payment on a typical charter route where most of the passengers are British and assumingly speak English? No hotel to stay in either as you are operating a there and back, which seems to be the norm with some airlines. BA also operate a fair share of there and back flights.
Could you explain what you mean by disruption allowance, something I have never heard of, and what you mean by "less duty pay than you get tax free".
Maybe if the cabin crew at your company were represented by a strong union similar as BASSA they could have enjoyed similiar terms and conditions. ST is also an issue which our union have negotiated for us and would be the responsibility of your union to take care.
MrBunker
Your question has been answered several times.
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You pays your money you take your choice?
There are (or have been in the past) a whole host of airlines offering different perks, salaries and routes. People choose their employer due to location, perks that suit them and if the pay covers their outgoings.
I think it's unfair to compare salaries inter-airline as when people join, they know what they are getting.
BA crew were not on poorer salaries asking for more. They are on good salaries, and have developed a lifestyle around it with mortgages, childrens education, parents in care homes, etc. Yes some are luckier and live in warmer climates with fast cars but it's certainly not the majority and usually as a result of length of service, intelligent management of the pursestrings or secondary income.
I for one have outgoings of £1400 a month and I'm lucky if I clear £1600 in my salary.
That said. BA never suggested a paycut. The union wanted to cut pay. BA only asked for the crew to work a little harder, increasing productivity. Makes fair business sense right?
Unfortunately now, with the strikes causing a further defecit in BA's financial rainy day pot, they may well have to cut pay overheads somehow. As the unions have said their members offered a pay cut already, then surely BA think the crew are happy with this and will use the offer (Thanks BASSA, well negotiated there! PS how many of your members agreed to a pay cut? Or did you forget to ask them all?)
There are (or have been in the past) a whole host of airlines offering different perks, salaries and routes. People choose their employer due to location, perks that suit them and if the pay covers their outgoings.
I think it's unfair to compare salaries inter-airline as when people join, they know what they are getting.
BA crew were not on poorer salaries asking for more. They are on good salaries, and have developed a lifestyle around it with mortgages, childrens education, parents in care homes, etc. Yes some are luckier and live in warmer climates with fast cars but it's certainly not the majority and usually as a result of length of service, intelligent management of the pursestrings or secondary income.
I for one have outgoings of £1400 a month and I'm lucky if I clear £1600 in my salary.
That said. BA never suggested a paycut. The union wanted to cut pay. BA only asked for the crew to work a little harder, increasing productivity. Makes fair business sense right?
Unfortunately now, with the strikes causing a further defecit in BA's financial rainy day pot, they may well have to cut pay overheads somehow. As the unions have said their members offered a pay cut already, then surely BA think the crew are happy with this and will use the offer (Thanks BASSA, well negotiated there! PS how many of your members agreed to a pay cut? Or did you forget to ask them all?)
Last edited by sixmilehighclub; 18th Jun 2010 at 08:45.
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Whilst many on here have ripped apart BA's proposals and called them scandalous thus leading to a very damaging series of IA very few of the Pro BASSA supporters have come forward with a way that the proportional cost savings may be achieved under BASSA.
The whole of this dispute centres over imposition. BASSA seem to have lost sight of that and are now squabbling over ST and re-instatement. The Unite leadership have all but confirmed that a deal could be reached if the local branch weren't being so hard headed over tertiary matters. Little wonder really when DH claims that he was victimised for not turning up to work whilst quite happy to plan IA for BASSA. A claim that took an employment tribunal milliseconds to throw out.
The company required proportional savings from ALL departments. Not just IFcE, all departments. From the outset the company stated that there would be no 'broad brush' approach and each departments cost savings requirements would be set according to the overheads and savings available. Thus, through specific negotiations, the flight crew, the engineers, the loaders, the ramp crew, the managers, the ground staff, IT, checkin, telephone operators etc. etc. etc. agreed contractural changes, productivity enhancements and, in some departments, permanent pay cuts. One Union failed to achieve those negotiations. They were given longer, past the deadline required by BA to compile the business plan. Still they failed. The Union, after refusing to comply with confidentiality agreements claimed that BA was lying, PWC were in their pockets and that the whole thing was a scam to target the Cabin Crew.
BASSA produced a list of savings that was proven to be worth less than half of its face value and was only to be put in place for two years then everything was to be paid back with interest. Temporary solutions to temporary problems was the BASSA line.
BA explained that this was not what was needed and the business needed permanent cost savings to survive the long term. No dice said BASSA, 'you're lying to us'. Then we have the 'great sorrow to cause disturbance to our customers' cheering and hollering sessions, the BASSA 'no negotiation with BA' vote and a long series of petty vindictive strikes aimed at ousting Willie Walsh and re-instating a bunch of employees who went through the Union sanctioned disciplinary system.
So, that's the precises, what would BASSA offer that would achieve the required savings that imposition brought? What would BASSA offer that would bring the savings, productivity increases and efficiencies that NF will bring?
It is all very well to shoot down the proposals from BA but, in a debate, those arguments against need to be based in fact, backed up with counter proposals. Something we, as employees, have never seen nor heard from BASSA.
What are BASSAs proposals to bring them in line with all of the other emloyees at BA. Because I feel that we, as employees fighting to protect our jobs from a suicidal Union, have a right to know.
The whole of this dispute centres over imposition. BASSA seem to have lost sight of that and are now squabbling over ST and re-instatement. The Unite leadership have all but confirmed that a deal could be reached if the local branch weren't being so hard headed over tertiary matters. Little wonder really when DH claims that he was victimised for not turning up to work whilst quite happy to plan IA for BASSA. A claim that took an employment tribunal milliseconds to throw out.
The company required proportional savings from ALL departments. Not just IFcE, all departments. From the outset the company stated that there would be no 'broad brush' approach and each departments cost savings requirements would be set according to the overheads and savings available. Thus, through specific negotiations, the flight crew, the engineers, the loaders, the ramp crew, the managers, the ground staff, IT, checkin, telephone operators etc. etc. etc. agreed contractural changes, productivity enhancements and, in some departments, permanent pay cuts. One Union failed to achieve those negotiations. They were given longer, past the deadline required by BA to compile the business plan. Still they failed. The Union, after refusing to comply with confidentiality agreements claimed that BA was lying, PWC were in their pockets and that the whole thing was a scam to target the Cabin Crew.
BASSA produced a list of savings that was proven to be worth less than half of its face value and was only to be put in place for two years then everything was to be paid back with interest. Temporary solutions to temporary problems was the BASSA line.
BA explained that this was not what was needed and the business needed permanent cost savings to survive the long term. No dice said BASSA, 'you're lying to us'. Then we have the 'great sorrow to cause disturbance to our customers' cheering and hollering sessions, the BASSA 'no negotiation with BA' vote and a long series of petty vindictive strikes aimed at ousting Willie Walsh and re-instating a bunch of employees who went through the Union sanctioned disciplinary system.
So, that's the precises, what would BASSA offer that would achieve the required savings that imposition brought? What would BASSA offer that would bring the savings, productivity increases and efficiencies that NF will bring?
It is all very well to shoot down the proposals from BA but, in a debate, those arguments against need to be based in fact, backed up with counter proposals. Something we, as employees, have never seen nor heard from BASSA.
What are BASSAs proposals to bring them in line with all of the other emloyees at BA. Because I feel that we, as employees fighting to protect our jobs from a suicidal Union, have a right to know.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 18th Jun 2010 at 08:51. Reason: Why do you only see spelling mistakes after posting?
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Well said Wirbelsturm.
So, someone from the BASSA camp.
Why should you not make permanent cost savings and productivity improvements like THE REST OF THE AIRLINE??
My department has made some difficult choices and I have seen a lot of well respected colleagues leave, and seen a huge amount of our work outsourced. We too, haven't had a pay rise for years, have to work harder for less and, unlike CC, we are paid around the market rate, so in theory, could leave and get similar terms elsewhere, but don't want to as we believe in BA and want to stay working here.
If it was just you being asked to change then fine, that's not fair, but we've all made our contribution....
So, someone from the BASSA camp.
Why should you not make permanent cost savings and productivity improvements like THE REST OF THE AIRLINE??
My department has made some difficult choices and I have seen a lot of well respected colleagues leave, and seen a huge amount of our work outsourced. We too, haven't had a pay rise for years, have to work harder for less and, unlike CC, we are paid around the market rate, so in theory, could leave and get similar terms elsewhere, but don't want to as we believe in BA and want to stay working here.
If it was just you being asked to change then fine, that's not fair, but we've all made our contribution....
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Only by hearing all the voices, seeing all the points of view, will a compromise eventually be reached. To the benefit of all those affected by the current dispute.
You answer questions, you coherently state your arguments and you do not engage in silly hit and run posting behaviour.
Furthermore, whenever you speak "from the cabin" there is the unmistakable ring of true experience.
Which is why I am dismayed when you write about personal attacks and insults.
- This thread is monitored and actively moderated by 3 Mods on a continuous basis.
- Any and all personal attacks against ANYBODY are removed immediately, and the poster in question handed a thread ban.
- If such a post should be overlooked, everybody can use the report to moderator button:
- Insulting PMs are dealt with in a similar way. As soon as we become aware of such a PM, the sender will immediately become an ex-ppruner.
We daily remove posts that fall outside the rules; some of those have been directed at you personally, but not a significant number.
We have not, as far as I am aware, received any ´report to moderator´ notes from you.
So please, put away the wooden cross; you are not being martyred here and you are not being targeted personally. Many posters have in fact expressed their specific appreciation for your presence here.
The only thing you have to put up with is people differing with your opinions.
Which is what a discussion forum is all about.
Again, we hare very happy that you participate. This thread would be meaningless if you and people like you did not, but your claims of PPRuNe martyrdom do not ring true.
Making such claims lessens your considerable stature; please ´cease & desist´.
flapsforty
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Just a long-term blue-sky thought for those in BASSA who are calling for those who didn't support the strike to be expelled (or leave voluntarily) from the union.
Working on that principle could, eventually, lead to a membership size in BASSA that allows BA to de-recognise them as representative of the cabin crew workforce.
The following numbers are back of a fag packet but bear with me.
Roughly 80% of crew in Unite voted in favour of a strike. For simplicity let's say there's 12000 crew in Unite. The 20% who didn't vote/voted no are now to be expelled. So we'd be down to 9600. Or possibly less if one could ascertain who voted yes but went to work. Let's favour unite and say that one's zero.
So now you have a BASSA where, for this issue, all members are singing off the same hymn sheet. What happens at the next big industrial issue? Can anyone in BASSA say, with hand on heart, they'd support the next issue without knowing what it might be. If the majority of that 9600 return a vote for strike, will the non-strikers and breakers be expected to leave again? How far could the union diminish itself into a coalesced core of militancy before it establishes its' own irrelevance?
As I say, nothing more than a musing on a what if, but, what if?
MrB
Working on that principle could, eventually, lead to a membership size in BASSA that allows BA to de-recognise them as representative of the cabin crew workforce.
The following numbers are back of a fag packet but bear with me.
Roughly 80% of crew in Unite voted in favour of a strike. For simplicity let's say there's 12000 crew in Unite. The 20% who didn't vote/voted no are now to be expelled. So we'd be down to 9600. Or possibly less if one could ascertain who voted yes but went to work. Let's favour unite and say that one's zero.
So now you have a BASSA where, for this issue, all members are singing off the same hymn sheet. What happens at the next big industrial issue? Can anyone in BASSA say, with hand on heart, they'd support the next issue without knowing what it might be. If the majority of that 9600 return a vote for strike, will the non-strikers and breakers be expected to leave again? How far could the union diminish itself into a coalesced core of militancy before it establishes its' own irrelevance?
As I say, nothing more than a musing on a what if, but, what if?
MrB
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This is a question, or should I call it an urgent request, to HiFlyer14, Tiramisu, Betty Girl and all of the other cabin crew members who crossed the picket line.
When New Fleet is commencing, because we all know that we can't stop it from happening, I should hope that you will be first ones asking for a transfer and a new contract?
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Miss M
The opportunity to stop new fleet was squandered by BASSA last year. Bassa acknowledged that new fleet was a reality long the first of the thousands of crew that crossed the pimms line did so. What most of us would like to do is have the chance to vote on the MTP so that we can protect our income when the routes go to the new fleet.
Have you been striking to stop new fleet?
do
When New Fleet is commencing, because we all know that we can't stop it from happening, I should hope that you will be first ones asking for a transfer and a new contract?
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Miss M
The opportunity to stop new fleet was squandered by BASSA last year. Bassa acknowledged that new fleet was a reality long the first of the thousands of crew that crossed the pimms line did so. What most of us would like to do is have the chance to vote on the MTP so that we can protect our income when the routes go to the new fleet.
Have you been striking to stop new fleet?
do
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This is a question, or should I call it an urgent request, to HiFlyer14, Tiramisu, Betty Girl and all of the other cabin crew members who crossed the picket line.
When New Fleet is commencing, because we all know that we can't stop it from happening, I should hope that you will be first ones asking for a transfer and a new contract?
When New Fleet is commencing, because we all know that we can't stop it from happening, I should hope that you will be first ones asking for a transfer and a new contract?
Why should they? I presume they (like my wife) chose to cross the picket line as they felt they could live with the proposals submitted by BA to generally protect the existing staff's terms and conditions. Why should they be first in line for NewFleet? They didn't go to work to indicate their acceptance of a transfer to New Fleet, they did it to indicate their acceptance of the proposals on the table for existing contracts. After all, bear in mind that the proposal so readily dismissed by BASSA in June of 2009 had you working side-by-side with New Fleet on the same aircraft, but that wasn't palatable to you.
It's the strikers that are gambling with their existing contracts. I don't presume to know what the master plan within the higher echelons of BA is but I find it risible that some strikers think that part of the solution to this is to put all the CC who worked straight onto new fleet and leave the "brave" strikers alone. Somehow, I don't for one moment imagine BA will reward the self-perceived heroism of those who've chosen to take industrial action.
MrB
PS My apologies if I've presumed to speak for others and their intentions.
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They didn't go to work to indicate their acceptance of a transfer to New Fleet, they did it to indicate their acceptance of the proposals on the table for existing contracts. After all, bear in mind that the proposal so readily dismissed by BASSA in June of 2009 had you working side-by-side with New Fleet on the same aircraft, but that wasn't palatable to you.
Exactly my thoughts.
The strike supporters seem to think the strike breakers are all for Willie Walsh and New Fleet. Not so!
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Those who crossed Unites picket lines did so for a variety of reasons. The vast majority did not cross picket lines because of unilateral support for Willie Walsh.
Most who I talked to worked for personal reasons ranging from financial responsibilities, no voters, those that felt the action was unjustified to absoloute rejection of BASSA. There were also many who are not in the Union. Thus action by them would be considered secondary and illegal therefore they had to work. They were still screamed at by the BASSA open topped bus as 'scabs'.
BASSA has a fantastic ability to 'broad brush' anyone who does not agree with their viewpoint. Anyone NOT striking is a scab, irrespective of if they are in the Union or not. Anyone who does not accept the bullying and harrasment claims are either management stooges or liars. There is no capacity within BASSA to believe that people and members can ascertain whether or not action is justified. If BASSA say it is then it must be.
Time for BASSA to be kicked out and meaningful representation to take their place.
Most who I talked to worked for personal reasons ranging from financial responsibilities, no voters, those that felt the action was unjustified to absoloute rejection of BASSA. There were also many who are not in the Union. Thus action by them would be considered secondary and illegal therefore they had to work. They were still screamed at by the BASSA open topped bus as 'scabs'.
BASSA has a fantastic ability to 'broad brush' anyone who does not agree with their viewpoint. Anyone NOT striking is a scab, irrespective of if they are in the Union or not. Anyone who does not accept the bullying and harrasment claims are either management stooges or liars. There is no capacity within BASSA to believe that people and members can ascertain whether or not action is justified. If BASSA say it is then it must be.
Time for BASSA to be kicked out and meaningful representation to take their place.
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I have worked for many years in the airline industry. I have worked as CC and even as a CSD. I have also held senior management positions in airline commercial and operational departments. I have been following this thread firstly, because I think it gives a good running account of the current thinking of those directly implicated in the IA, and secondly, because the IA has directly affected my personal and professional life... and not in a pleasant way.
One observation I hae is that there appears to be an inabiliy on the part of many CC to understand what an airline is, why it exists and who it is meant to serve. Fair enough, in the fat old days, especially where quasi state run airlines plowed the skies, there was little incentive to worry about bottom line results and there certainly was no real competition for custom. This is not the case today.
I congratulate the BA staff who have acted reasonably and made the sacrifices in their respective departments for the good of "their" company. The air transport industry is not immune from the same socio-economic adjustments that are being made across all industry. No one wants to see their conditions made worse, but in difficult times, difficult actions are called for.
As for the BASSA crew who believe that they are able to play the same game but with different rules, I am afraid they will remain unable to understand.
One observation I hae is that there appears to be an inabiliy on the part of many CC to understand what an airline is, why it exists and who it is meant to serve. Fair enough, in the fat old days, especially where quasi state run airlines plowed the skies, there was little incentive to worry about bottom line results and there certainly was no real competition for custom. This is not the case today.
I congratulate the BA staff who have acted reasonably and made the sacrifices in their respective departments for the good of "their" company. The air transport industry is not immune from the same socio-economic adjustments that are being made across all industry. No one wants to see their conditions made worse, but in difficult times, difficult actions are called for.
As for the BASSA crew who believe that they are able to play the same game but with different rules, I am afraid they will remain unable to understand.
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they are worth more,individually, than LHR cabin crew put together
Litebulbs - to answer your question. This 18 hours debate that is getting so het up is actually a bit of a smokescreen. A standard rostered cabin crew duty of up to 11 hours triggers a 12 hour 30 rest period. If the planned duty is up to 12 hours 30 minutes planned then it comes with 15 hours rest afterwards. It is only if a planned rostered duty is delayed so long that the duty period is over 12 hour 30 minutes then the cabin crew can ask for 18 hours off. As a Eurofleet CSD I have only had to use this twice in the last 3 years so it is hardly a common occurence but I accept it can happen at the most inconvenient time.
The LCA flight is historically planned with a night sector which restricts the hours further which is why it is a nightstop. It would be so close to the legal limits that BA has opted for the nightstopping of the crew. This does give shorter days but they are balanced against a DME etc to avoid the crew running out of weekly hours too quickly. To get the maximum efficiency from a CC roster it is ideal to have some short days and some long ones and aim to have the hours as close to the limit as possible. (Mixed flying actually reduces the maximum duty day as crew are not always acclimatised and also maximum monthly hours.)The difference is that Flight crew tend to try and achieve their hours as quickly as possible to have more days at home which seems to suit them but to be fair, their work is less physical. I bet my feet hurt more than theirs after a 12 hour day!
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Ottergirl
Great post. I agree with your comment about a smoke screen. I think the management speak term last year was "sweating your assets" and some comments were made about too much rest.
Question to you, if I may? Do you come closer to working your 900 or 2000 hours in a year?
Question to you, if I may? Do you come closer to working your 900 or 2000 hours in a year?
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More strikes?
BA STRIKES: European holiday spots likely to be worst affected | Mail Online
Looking through the associated reader comments, as expected, lots of anger, but makes for uncomfortable reading when you hear of those that wish for our demise because of this minority.
Looking through the associated reader comments, as expected, lots of anger, but makes for uncomfortable reading when you hear of those that wish for our demise because of this minority.
Last edited by ranger07; 18th Jun 2010 at 13:00.
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Hi litebulbs,
Probably I'm not the best person to ask because the CSD rank on Eurofleet is notoriously under-used. I am 75% as well. My current 900 hours accumulation is around 430 so that would translate into about 600 for full-time. Eurofleet never gets anywhere near to the 900. Look at a 11 hour 20 day with four sectors to EDI and GLA for example. The actual flying hours will be only around 5 hours, the rest is taken up with briefing, turning the planes around and waiting around for the next sector. I have never added up my total work hours for a year so I don't know what they might be.
OG
Probably I'm not the best person to ask because the CSD rank on Eurofleet is notoriously under-used. I am 75% as well. My current 900 hours accumulation is around 430 so that would translate into about 600 for full-time. Eurofleet never gets anywhere near to the 900. Look at a 11 hour 20 day with four sectors to EDI and GLA for example. The actual flying hours will be only around 5 hours, the rest is taken up with briefing, turning the planes around and waiting around for the next sector. I have never added up my total work hours for a year so I don't know what they might be.
OG
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ranger07
That serves you right for reading that dreadful rag! Actually they are just guessing that european holiday spots would be affected - why would they? If we are truly going to operate 100% of the flights then that shouldn't be the case. A classic example of Daily Mail scaremongering. This quote was interesting though as it bucks the trend of thoughts on this forum.
The service on the 2 flights that came during the strike period was appalling, the ratio of crew to passengers was depleted and I dread to think what would have happened if there had been an emergency.
I will never fly with BA again.
That serves you right for reading that dreadful rag! Actually they are just guessing that european holiday spots would be affected - why would they? If we are truly going to operate 100% of the flights then that shouldn't be the case. A classic example of Daily Mail scaremongering. This quote was interesting though as it bucks the trend of thoughts on this forum.
The service on the 2 flights that came during the strike period was appalling, the ratio of crew to passengers was depleted and I dread to think what would have happened if there had been an emergency.
I will never fly with BA again.
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So another Ballot!!!!
The past set of strike actions where caused not only by the approx 3000 striking crew but by all crew voting yes for strike action.
I have more respect for the cabin crew who voted yes and did strike then for the many who voted yes and then turned around saying they are backing BA.
So if you really want to back BA vote NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The past set of strike actions where caused not only by the approx 3000 striking crew but by all crew voting yes for strike action.
I have more respect for the cabin crew who voted yes and did strike then for the many who voted yes and then turned around saying they are backing BA.
So if you really want to back BA vote NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!