British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Meal Chucker
WW destinations to go nightstops and EF to lose 12 days a year were part of the proposal which included that future crew would work alongside with existing crew on WW and EF fleets.
I have based my opinion after listening to both sides.
WW destinations to go nightstops and EF to lose 12 days a year were part of the proposal which included that future crew would work alongside with existing crew on WW and EF fleets.
I have based my opinion after listening to both sides.
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MissM
Firstly I applaud you for continuing to participate in reasoned debate. Refreshing.
But....
So how does a pay-cut to CC, only to be paid back,i.e a "loan" - help with the bottom line.
Yes - long term cost savings. Why do you ask the following?
What else will happen? Not sure what you mean. It IS happening. Our income is reducing due to pressure on all sides. Our costs such as fuel (especially fuel) are rising and will keep on rising.
The pension deficit - although partly being sorted by changing terms, about to change again for members - is still going to have to be hugely funded by BA.
There are numerous reasons why BA cannot continue as a going concern - without changes.
I'm not sure why this fundamental point cannot be grasped. I haven't had a pay rise for three years. But I have a job and the hopeful prospect of pay rises in the future.
And as I have said before - BASSA/Unite must now realise there are good reasons for cuts as they started out by saying things were not as bad as BA were making out. Then they made offers that did not match the rest of the airline, but at least shifted from nothing to something even if it wasn't enough.
So they either admit there was/is a need and it needs to be on a par with other departments - or they don't.
You seem to think they don't. So why offer "anything" at all if all is rosy?
Firstly I applaud you for continuing to participate in reasoned debate. Refreshing.
But....
A loan does not help the bottom line, no.
Yes - long term cost savings. Why do you ask the following?
Long-term cost savings? What else will happen? Will BA cease to exist? Doubtfully.
The pension deficit - although partly being sorted by changing terms, about to change again for members - is still going to have to be hugely funded by BA.
There are numerous reasons why BA cannot continue as a going concern - without changes.
I'm not sure why this fundamental point cannot be grasped. I haven't had a pay rise for three years. But I have a job and the hopeful prospect of pay rises in the future.
And as I have said before - BASSA/Unite must now realise there are good reasons for cuts as they started out by saying things were not as bad as BA were making out. Then they made offers that did not match the rest of the airline, but at least shifted from nothing to something even if it wasn't enough.
So they either admit there was/is a need and it needs to be on a par with other departments - or they don't.
You seem to think they don't. So why offer "anything" at all if all is rosy?
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Miss M
I'm with you Cotswold chap. You get the impression someone is putting their fingers in their ears and humming loudly.
One minor point. LHR cabin crew do not go to Larnaca and back in the same day because the amount BA has to pay cabin crew for the long day payment (and the subsequent 18 hour rest period required) is more than it costs to put you up in a hotel. It is not 'Operational', it's your 'agreement'! And guess what? (cue drum roll), your LGW colleagues have been doing it for years! Start humming.
One minor point. LHR cabin crew do not go to Larnaca and back in the same day because the amount BA has to pay cabin crew for the long day payment (and the subsequent 18 hour rest period required) is more than it costs to put you up in a hotel. It is not 'Operational', it's your 'agreement'! And guess what? (cue drum roll), your LGW colleagues have been doing it for years! Start humming.
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Miss M,
Let's look at exactly how forensic BASSA have been in these "negotiations."
I'll pick one simple example; the 2.6% temporary paycut you offered.
Why did you offer it? Simple. Because it was the same as was agreed with BALPA, ie. the great nemesis, the pilots. But do you or any of your fellow travellers understand where that figure came from? Highlighting it highlights one of the biggest failures of BASSA's lack of understanding. Please moderators, bear with me, this is such a fundamental point it needs to be hammered home. Again.
Flight Operations were given a target to save (cost neutral for two years, a reflection of our market value position already, if you will.) This was presented to the union, who then asked to see the reasons why. They were then (certain named individuals) given confidential access to the company accounts (BASSA turned down the same level of access.) The report was, to put it simply; yes there is an issue, we can see the reasons why, we need to grasp this nettle.
But how to grasp it? There exist several mechanisms; pay alone, productivity alone, or a mix of both. So it was put to the membership in ballot. The rsult was a mix of both. A PERMANENT mix of both.
So much wailing and gnashing of teeth later, the result was that productivity could provide x% of savings acceptable to the membership. The rest would have to be made up from pay.
And exactly how much was that figure?
You got it. 2.61%.
Can you see why your offer of a similar pay cut is, to say the least, derisory? It shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of the process involved that you would have to question the competence of those who suggested it. Oh hang on, they are the self-same officials who, when they are not trousering their £100 a day over and above their salaries for their "union" work are the ones you pay to fully understand and explain the issues to you. In this case, the explanation you got was "the pilots took 2.6%, so will we."
The word pathetic comes to mind. The fact you were never given any of the options available to you to vote upon basically signals to me that your union is not fit for purpose. The fact that you cannot see that to this day speaks volumes about your engagement with the relevant issues.
Good luck in your "struggle." You will need it. None of BASSA's propaganda has been accurate so far, why should we believe any of it now? Personally, if I could continue to work with the crews I worked with during the strike, then BA would be a far better place to be. If you truly hate the company and its CEO so much, then please, go seek employment elsewhere, I for one do not wish to work with you.
Satan
PS My paycut since inception has been in the order of 7 to 10%. Slightly more than the 2.61% headline, as you always forget to include the changes to productivity, and therefore variable pay. PERMANENT changes, to boot, and please, notice how I've capitalised it in case you missed it: PERMANENT CHANGES.
If it keeps me in a job, I am happy to live with that. I am also happy to back BA in any way I can. If I felt you had a valid argument, I would back you 100%, but you don't. Therefore, I am backing my employer.
Let's look at exactly how forensic BASSA have been in these "negotiations."
I'll pick one simple example; the 2.6% temporary paycut you offered.
Why did you offer it? Simple. Because it was the same as was agreed with BALPA, ie. the great nemesis, the pilots. But do you or any of your fellow travellers understand where that figure came from? Highlighting it highlights one of the biggest failures of BASSA's lack of understanding. Please moderators, bear with me, this is such a fundamental point it needs to be hammered home. Again.
Flight Operations were given a target to save (cost neutral for two years, a reflection of our market value position already, if you will.) This was presented to the union, who then asked to see the reasons why. They were then (certain named individuals) given confidential access to the company accounts (BASSA turned down the same level of access.) The report was, to put it simply; yes there is an issue, we can see the reasons why, we need to grasp this nettle.
But how to grasp it? There exist several mechanisms; pay alone, productivity alone, or a mix of both. So it was put to the membership in ballot. The rsult was a mix of both. A PERMANENT mix of both.
So much wailing and gnashing of teeth later, the result was that productivity could provide x% of savings acceptable to the membership. The rest would have to be made up from pay.
And exactly how much was that figure?
You got it. 2.61%.
Can you see why your offer of a similar pay cut is, to say the least, derisory? It shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of the process involved that you would have to question the competence of those who suggested it. Oh hang on, they are the self-same officials who, when they are not trousering their £100 a day over and above their salaries for their "union" work are the ones you pay to fully understand and explain the issues to you. In this case, the explanation you got was "the pilots took 2.6%, so will we."
The word pathetic comes to mind. The fact you were never given any of the options available to you to vote upon basically signals to me that your union is not fit for purpose. The fact that you cannot see that to this day speaks volumes about your engagement with the relevant issues.
Good luck in your "struggle." You will need it. None of BASSA's propaganda has been accurate so far, why should we believe any of it now? Personally, if I could continue to work with the crews I worked with during the strike, then BA would be a far better place to be. If you truly hate the company and its CEO so much, then please, go seek employment elsewhere, I for one do not wish to work with you.
Satan
PS My paycut since inception has been in the order of 7 to 10%. Slightly more than the 2.61% headline, as you always forget to include the changes to productivity, and therefore variable pay. PERMANENT changes, to boot, and please, notice how I've capitalised it in case you missed it: PERMANENT CHANGES.
If it keeps me in a job, I am happy to live with that. I am also happy to back BA in any way I can. If I felt you had a valid argument, I would back you 100%, but you don't. Therefore, I am backing my employer.
Last edited by Satan; 17th Jun 2010 at 22:55.
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To MissM - who says she "can't see"
I can't see the relevance in comparing the agreements of your wive's profession with ours.
She has to start her next shift according to her timetable. With a curtailed break (which includes travelling from and back to her hospital) she may not be refreshed and fully rested.
If she does not, patients already prepared for surgery may have their long-awaited operations postponed or even cancelled.
That's life in the "real world".
On the other hand, cabin crew have not only a legal and contractual entitlement to the eleven hours stipulated in the Working Time Regulations but also a further seven hours. Cabin crew do not have to make themselves a meal: all that is provided for them. That is set in stone.
If BA cabin crew do not get their 18 hours rest flights can and have been cancelled, resulting in severe inconvenience for hundreds of passengers.
It is this innate inability of BASSA-led cabin crew to see further than the ends of their own noses (if that far) that has led to this prolonged and over-extended strike.
The sooner the PCCC is recognised by British Airways the better. No matter what it does, no matter what mistakes it may make, it cannot be any worse than the current crew representative body.
_____________
I am a BA employee who wants a quick and equitable settlement of this dispute.
Last edited by Chuchinchow; 17th Jun 2010 at 23:53.
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Unites continued support for Bassa
With the public sector cuts announced and to be announced by the new Govt, Unite are, very soon, going to be very very busy, fighting for many many of their other members fighting for their jobs and livelyhoods, mortgages and food on the table, rather than fighting for well paid cabin crew to get their perks back.
It's now been 2 days since the ACAS talks broke down - and no rhetoric from Unite on a new ballot - have they now moved on to the more important fight and are trying to sideline Bassa and their dispute?
Think about it - with the retirement of Woodley and Simpson, so an election within Unite for the next General Secretary - what will carry a candidate to success......I'm fighting for Public Sector workers jobs, or, I'm fighting for well paid BA Cabin Crew Perks?
That maybe why Mcluskey has been very quiet recently.......
It's now been 2 days since the ACAS talks broke down - and no rhetoric from Unite on a new ballot - have they now moved on to the more important fight and are trying to sideline Bassa and their dispute?
Think about it - with the retirement of Woodley and Simpson, so an election within Unite for the next General Secretary - what will carry a candidate to success......I'm fighting for Public Sector workers jobs, or, I'm fighting for well paid BA Cabin Crew Perks?
That maybe why Mcluskey has been very quiet recently.......
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To the rest of you, I will reply tomorrow.
Chuchinchow
Why do I keep posting here? Because I think it's important that somebody at least tries to explain our cause. In return, I have to put up with a lot, including personal attacks and insults, both on the forum and in private messages. I would have happily continued to debate with you but your last response is very patronising and there's no doubt that one of your purposes is to make me look and feel dumb.
I will ignore all of your future responses as of now.
Good night.
Chuchinchow
Why do I keep posting here? Because I think it's important that somebody at least tries to explain our cause. In return, I have to put up with a lot, including personal attacks and insults, both on the forum and in private messages. I would have happily continued to debate with you but your last response is very patronising and there's no doubt that one of your purposes is to make me look and feel dumb.
I will ignore all of your future responses as of now.
Good night.
Last edited by MissM; 17th Jun 2010 at 23:16.
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Miss M
Whilst I agree with you that Churchinchows last response to you was rather patronising - it did highlight a very relevant point in trying to compare other, more critical, industries work load and duty time vs BA cabin crews work load and duty times ie comparing your industry, to an industry that really does affect more peoples lives and well being....... direct healthcare.
Junior doctors work 80 hours a week....for much less money than a Purser or CSD - time for perspective methinks....
Junior doctors work 80 hours a week....for much less money than a Purser or CSD - time for perspective methinks....
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Harrypic
He could have made said point in a different manner.
I still stand by my opinion that it is every working group's responsibility to negotiate their own terms and conditions including salary. I don't believe in comparing the salary of a nurse to the salary of a BA cabin crew. Our union have fought hard for our terms and conditions. There should be no shame for making good money in a job which requires little formal education compared to other professions.
The CSD and Purser salaries I assume you are referring to are long gone in this company. We will never see those kind of figures again.
He could have made said point in a different manner.
I still stand by my opinion that it is every working group's responsibility to negotiate their own terms and conditions including salary. I don't believe in comparing the salary of a nurse to the salary of a BA cabin crew. Our union have fought hard for our terms and conditions. There should be no shame for making good money in a job which requires little formal education compared to other professions.
The CSD and Purser salaries I assume you are referring to are long gone in this company. We will never see those kind of figures again.
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MissM can I please suggest you read post5238 by Satan who manages to explain the situation much better than I. Also bear in mind the pilots took a 20% cut if flight pay on top of everything else mentioned, this is also permenant.
To say that the cabin crew matched the pilot offer is therefore totally innacurate and false an needs to be mentioned to destroy the myth that both offers were the same. THEY ARE NOT.
To say that the cabin crew matched the pilot offer is therefore totally innacurate and false an needs to be mentioned to destroy the myth that both offers were the same. THEY ARE NOT.
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I don't believe in comparing the salary of a nurse to the salary of a BA cabin crew.
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As a Brit abroad working for one of your competitors, I have been following this dispute with interest. I can remember the strikes of the early 90s when my wife was called a scab for pitching up to do a job that she thought was fun, and in her words, 'money for old rope' compared to the previous jobs she had worked before. She always used to laugh at the senior CSDs that were effectively commuting from their toyboys in the Carribean and then bitching about how terrible BA were to work for.
Amazing how zip has been achieved by this action apart from padding your competitors bottom lines and disenfranchising your customers permanently. I feel for all those employees that value their company and are frustrated at misguided plonkers from the far left destroying it.
Good to see the union commanders are staying in the trenches to fight with you though:
Good luck to the loyal hard working employees, to the militants smell the coffee.
Amazing how zip has been achieved by this action apart from padding your competitors bottom lines and disenfranchising your customers permanently. I feel for all those employees that value their company and are frustrated at misguided plonkers from the far left destroying it.
Good to see the union commanders are staying in the trenches to fight with you though:
THE union baron behind the BA strikes ruining thousands of families' holidays took his own break yesterday, flying off to the sun - on easyJet.
As cabin crew in the Unite union started yet another walkout, wrecking half-term trips, Tony Woodley jetted off on a budget flight to Cyprus with wife Janet.
Ironically, easyJet cabin crew waiting on him earn £9,000 LESS than the British Airways stewards he is causing chaos over.
As cabin crew in the Unite union started yet another walkout, wrecking half-term trips, Tony Woodley jetted off on a budget flight to Cyprus with wife Janet.
Ironically, easyJet cabin crew waiting on him earn £9,000 LESS than the British Airways stewards he is causing chaos over.
There, the left-wing ex-car plant worker - who pockets £122,108 a year in pay and benefits from Unite - queued up to board the easyJet flight to Paphos. BA has admitted the strikes have seen passenger numbers dive, with the airline carrying 400,000 fewer people last month than in May 2009.
Yet despite record losses of £401million last year, Civil Aviation Authority figures show BA's 12,000 crew were paid an average of £31,400 in 2009 - up five per cent on the year before. The pay packet, which includes basic pay, overtime, and allowances, is well above other carriers.
In comparison, Virgin Atlantic's crew had their pay frozen at £14,400, crew at bmi suffered an average 6.5 per cent cut to £17,200, while charter airlines Monarch and Thomas Cook cut pay by about 13 per cent.
Yet despite record losses of £401million last year, Civil Aviation Authority figures show BA's 12,000 crew were paid an average of £31,400 in 2009 - up five per cent on the year before. The pay packet, which includes basic pay, overtime, and allowances, is well above other carriers.
In comparison, Virgin Atlantic's crew had their pay frozen at £14,400, crew at bmi suffered an average 6.5 per cent cut to £17,200, while charter airlines Monarch and Thomas Cook cut pay by about 13 per cent.
Good luck to the loyal hard working employees, to the militants smell the coffee.
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The real world...
Having just got back from a MAN - SSH - MAN operated under a L2 variation, I can't see how some (read militant few) CC from BA can justify their expense. At our airline their basic pay is possibly on par with your new starters, and THE ONLY additions they get are just over £2 an hour flight pay, and commission on sales if they reach a pre-determined target.
As FD before a L2 we have to have 34 hours rest, and then a complete day as rest. This just about allows you to operate the flight well, and recover to being a human being within 24 hours. CC don't get that "luxury" Do BA ask you to operate flights like this?
Miss M - would you like to comment on reporting at 11:30z for a 2 sector day, finally coming on blocks (so add at least another hour duty time onto the FD period) at 01:30z - a total time of over 15 hours - and earning just over £30.
No meal allowances
No allowances for speaking another language
No telephone allowances
No gold plated pension
No nice hotel to stay in
ST that is nowhere near the fantastic ST you get
No disruption allowances
Less duty pay than you get tax free (though BASSA could have stopped that but didn't)
No guaranteed 18 hours off
I have utmost respect for CC regardless of the company - it is a far harder job than most people think. But the reality is you do not deserve nor can you justify your payments in this day and age. Our CC work twice as hard as you, and get paid less than a third. You work it out.
There are thousands who will happily fill your place on NF conditions because they are market rate + 10%.
Miss M - do you have any idea what the market rate is for CC outside of BA?
As FD before a L2 we have to have 34 hours rest, and then a complete day as rest. This just about allows you to operate the flight well, and recover to being a human being within 24 hours. CC don't get that "luxury" Do BA ask you to operate flights like this?
Miss M - would you like to comment on reporting at 11:30z for a 2 sector day, finally coming on blocks (so add at least another hour duty time onto the FD period) at 01:30z - a total time of over 15 hours - and earning just over £30.
No meal allowances
No allowances for speaking another language
No telephone allowances
No gold plated pension
No nice hotel to stay in
ST that is nowhere near the fantastic ST you get
No disruption allowances
Less duty pay than you get tax free (though BASSA could have stopped that but didn't)
No guaranteed 18 hours off
I have utmost respect for CC regardless of the company - it is a far harder job than most people think. But the reality is you do not deserve nor can you justify your payments in this day and age. Our CC work twice as hard as you, and get paid less than a third. You work it out.
There are thousands who will happily fill your place on NF conditions because they are market rate + 10%.
Miss M - do you have any idea what the market rate is for CC outside of BA?
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Chuchinchow
I can't see the relevance in comparing the agreements of your wive's profession with ours. They are two completely different areas. It's the same when we are being compared to the nurses and their pay. It's THEIR responsibility to negotiate good terms and conditions. Those of us who have succeeded in negotiating a good salary should not have to justify ourselves.
I can't see the relevance in comparing the agreements of your wive's profession with ours. They are two completely different areas. It's the same when we are being compared to the nurses and their pay. It's THEIR responsibility to negotiate good terms and conditions. Those of us who have succeeded in negotiating a good salary should not have to justify ourselves.
Mrb
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dwshimoda
'Our CC work twice as hard as you, and get paid less than a third. You work it out.'
Unions are there to protect pay and conditions ,not run the airline.I'll think you'll find that this is the bottom line in this dispute.
Your obviously in need of union representation if your pay and conditons are that bad or as you imply. its what your job is worth to your company.
'Our CC work twice as hard as you, and get paid less than a third. You work it out.'
Unions are there to protect pay and conditions ,not run the airline.I'll think you'll find that this is the bottom line in this dispute.
Your obviously in need of union representation if your pay and conditons are that bad or as you imply. its what your job is worth to your company.
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Hang on in there cotswoldchap
I feel your frustration, but remember, these 'fellow staff members' that make you feel that way are the minority.
It would be like trying to reason, from my point of view, with a long standing dedicated cult member, locked away from reality for a long period of time.
After outrageous statements from BASSA throughout the dispute and comments relating as to how the strike was going, then to be told by the poster that's hacked you off, of the 'BA spin', speaks volumes.
The sad thing is though, while we have these afforementioned within our midst, we cannot move on. I really feel that. I'm sure Willie must be aware of it too, how he addresses it, I just don't know.
It would be like trying to reason, from my point of view, with a long standing dedicated cult member, locked away from reality for a long period of time.
After outrageous statements from BASSA throughout the dispute and comments relating as to how the strike was going, then to be told by the poster that's hacked you off, of the 'BA spin', speaks volumes.
The sad thing is though, while we have these afforementioned within our midst, we cannot move on. I really feel that. I'm sure Willie must be aware of it too, how he addresses it, I just don't know.