British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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8 Days to go until the 12th. I have now heard rumours well beyond the company that 12th June will be a P45 date for remaining obstinate strikers. Personally, I don't think it is feasible or desirable to do so - the CRM implications are too serious in my opinion. It is a pity that every other group is cheering on potential sackings; however, it goes to show the complete lack of support there is among other employee groups, retired crew and competitor crews.
The union continues to retort that everyone else should mind their own business. £100m later in costs makes that attitude completely untenable, given the pension scheme and continuing global economic problems.
Of course, if engagement had taken place 18 months ago, BA could be taking advantage of the misery at other airlines, and growing for the future. Look now at what that short-sighted union leadership has produced.
JO and WWW should be ignored - they are clearly Duncan or some other BASSA senior flag-waver in disguise. I take the total lack of engagement as a strong indication of the union's level of maturity in negotiations with the company.
Time to sack your reps, or join another union with level-headed leadership.
My opinion on what will happen? Obstinate strikers will be de-rostered (like shorthaul CSDs) and "managed" out of the company. Easier route to take than the PR disaster that sackings would produce. I'd do it in two stages. Worldwide crews first - keep the profitable routes flying with new fleet and VCCs. Turn to shorthaul in the new year.
The union continues to retort that everyone else should mind their own business. £100m later in costs makes that attitude completely untenable, given the pension scheme and continuing global economic problems.
Of course, if engagement had taken place 18 months ago, BA could be taking advantage of the misery at other airlines, and growing for the future. Look now at what that short-sighted union leadership has produced.
JO and WWW should be ignored - they are clearly Duncan or some other BASSA senior flag-waver in disguise. I take the total lack of engagement as a strong indication of the union's level of maturity in negotiations with the company.
Time to sack your reps, or join another union with level-headed leadership.
My opinion on what will happen? Obstinate strikers will be de-rostered (like shorthaul CSDs) and "managed" out of the company. Easier route to take than the PR disaster that sackings would produce. I'd do it in two stages. Worldwide crews first - keep the profitable routes flying with new fleet and VCCs. Turn to shorthaul in the new year.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 4th Jun 2010 at 23:41.
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It is a pity that every other group is cheering on potential sackings
Its hard to see how one can be achieved without the other. I guess my somewhat naive hope is that the new changed attitude in the rest of the company having worked together as one team, prepared to work hard, accept change and do what it takes for the good of the company will be odious enough for the militants to want to leave of their own accord..
Its a nice dream....
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Unfortunately I do not think the company can become even half the company it is trying to be without the removal from the business of at least the most militant of strikers. I am in no doubt that these guys will sabotage from within if given half a chance. The question is; will Mr. Walsh find a way to remove them in one fell swoop with a bit of collateral damage, or will he have to do it gradually through disciplinary action as and when they are caught. It would undoubtably be best for the business to get rid of them now but alas, I don't think that is how the game is going to be played.
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I'd be the first to admit that I have little idea as to the machinations of the legal system, but looking back to Willie's request asking UNITE to retain all 'paperwork', with the talk of a fresh case, I wonder if the company continue to look at 'flaws'.
If so, and proven, deeming the strike illegal, can you imagine the implications? Unite would be sued for millions, and, as for the strikers, I'd be worried if I was one of them.
If so, and proven, deeming the strike illegal, can you imagine the implications? Unite would be sued for millions, and, as for the strikers, I'd be worried if I was one of them.
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ns68 has stoutly declared that:
and he/she is absolutely correct in saying that.
It's a shame that ns68 has conveniently omitted telling us that BA can recruit and train new cabin crew in 21 days. This fresh blood can and will replace those diehard BASSA members who cannot or do not wish to knuckle under.
Whichever way we look at it, folks, Willie Walsh is the CEO of British Airways - not LizAnne Malone, Duncan Holley or any other union apparatchik.
And that's the way it should be.
current fleets will not be able to operate with just about half of the workforce
It's a shame that ns68 has conveniently omitted telling us that BA can recruit and train new cabin crew in 21 days. This fresh blood can and will replace those diehard BASSA members who cannot or do not wish to knuckle under.
Whichever way we look at it, folks, Willie Walsh is the CEO of British Airways - not LizAnne Malone, Duncan Holley or any other union apparatchik.
And that's the way it should be.
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hello to Ppprune or whatever it is called - I gather some sad person posts this on there 3 minutes after it goes live on our forum.
Or should we take the "sad person" to task for tardiness in publishing Holley's bulletins? A three minute delay is absolutely appalling.
Last edited by Chuchinchow; 4th Jun 2010 at 15:12.
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It's a shame that ns68 has conveniently omitted telling us that BA can recruit and train new cabin crew in 21 days. This fresh blood can and will replace those diehard BASSA members who cannot or do not wish to knuckle under.
No omission there! He does not want to recruit for current terms and conditions-hence my post!
The fact that he could recruit a million people by the end of the year,i agree but for the NF.
If you read my post,I clearly say how it will be difficult to mantain the current fleet going if every single person who striked will be sent home or to the new fleet..In a matter of months,the current fleets would be gone.
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it will be difficult to mantain the current fleet going if every single person who striked will be sent home or to the new fleet
There is no place in British Airways for disloyal and disgruntled ex-strikers any more. This year is 2010 and not 1978.
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If that's what it takes to keep BA flying, passengers flying with BA, and providing the bulk of BA's loyal employees in gainful employment so be it.
I for once, will take whatever comes.new fleet/new contract/90 days letter,dismissal or whatever else. Next time you wish to personally make accusations of omissions etc,please read all the posts before then and try not to take sentences out of context.
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If the option to sign a new contract based on the way forward agreement or take redundancy does come up then that would be the perfect time to give staff travel back to the strikers. If we want the best for the customer then what we need is a happy workforce. If a striker is prepared to accept that there was no point in striking and commits to the future then maybe it would be best to wipe the slate clean. If people have been misled by BASSA and a new contract is what it takes to open their eyes then so be it. I'm sure there is no way that the hardliners will sign a new contract because it would go against their much championed principles ( one on the other forum was today proclaiming that they would rather be homeless than to back BA) therefore the customer will come off best in the end.
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They say familiarity breeds contempt but I cannot fathom how CC can compare themselves to pilots, utterly amazing. Perhaps they should all be allowed to sit in on a base check and then judge their respective responsibilities and thus pay.
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As a BA Airbus Captain i am not alone in noticing that LHR is operating virtually as normal with the numbers of crew turning up, the atmosphere pre flight in the CRC and during the trips is excellent and reminds me of the happy days on charter flights when crews were paid significantly less than the current BA CC. It willl not be difficult to recruit new enthusiastic CC, it is not necessary to have 20+years service to operate as CC. How many CC in the other firms would relish one out, standover day, one back in a European Capital and then pick up Euro 155 allowances for a standover in Germany for example.
Bassa has not told its diminishing membership the options post June 9th. Legally i believe that a new ballot cannot be for the same grievance that the previous ballot was for. Am I correct.
Anyone with any doubts about the effectiveness of the BA plan to fly the schedules is sadly misguided. Sooner we excommunicate the Bedfont blinkered ones the better.::
Bassa has not told its diminishing membership the options post June 9th. Legally i believe that a new ballot cannot be for the same grievance that the previous ballot was for. Am I correct.
Anyone with any doubts about the effectiveness of the BA plan to fly the schedules is sadly misguided. Sooner we excommunicate the Bedfont blinkered ones the better.::
The End Game
I think most people other than 'hard core Bassa' will agree that this IA is over as far as having any massive impact on BA operations. The reason presumably, that there is not much enthusiasm from BA, for further negotiations with Unite.
WW where the profits are, is probably operating most of the monymaking routes that BA wish.
Eurofleet routes will probably stay roughly as is, on the last bout of IA from Saturday, operating the more profitable trips that BA select.
Perversely the Wet Lease aircraft cost less to operate on European routes than our own aircraft, due to the high utilisation of crews and aircraft.
The many cc scheduling restrictive practises that plague BA, that BASSA are trying to hold on to, hamper profitable operation of our own aircraft.
Hopefully Mr. Walsh will bring this saga to an end when this bout of IA finishes and the strike mandate expires, possibly with new contracts etc.(NF), on the cards for striking crew.
WW where the profits are, is probably operating most of the monymaking routes that BA wish.
Eurofleet routes will probably stay roughly as is, on the last bout of IA from Saturday, operating the more profitable trips that BA select.
Perversely the Wet Lease aircraft cost less to operate on European routes than our own aircraft, due to the high utilisation of crews and aircraft.
The many cc scheduling restrictive practises that plague BA, that BASSA are trying to hold on to, hamper profitable operation of our own aircraft.
Hopefully Mr. Walsh will bring this saga to an end when this bout of IA finishes and the strike mandate expires, possibly with new contracts etc.(NF), on the cards for striking crew.
Last edited by cessnapete; 4th Jun 2010 at 16:53. Reason: grammar
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Reading some of the past postings I have to agree that some posters are at the far right or left of this situation, and their views and posts reflect this (and subsequently refuse to see anything else but THEIR VIEW on it).
Take a step back people.
As to the point of the % voting to strike. The ballot took place way back in the time line, as did the show of hand motions at meetings etc etc. So when the train started coming off the tracks (with the drivers shouting FULL STEAM AHEAD!) further down the line, you can't blame those who chose to get on it jump off and take their chances. So this I believe explains the votes vs strikers issue.
For what it's worth here's my view on it......
To begin with I think BA had a plan, but was willing to see if BASSA would see sense. The hope being they would think....."Ok change needed, lets accept some change now. Be involved. Limit damage to our members".
BA did however bet on the fact that BASSA would say NO NO NO. They were not dissapointed. Thus BA led BASSA through the hoops, and BASSA followed willingly saying NO NO NO. They could have suprised us all, but they didn't.
BA again knew this would happen, planned for it, flow chart followed accordingly. I really think BA would have accepted a far better deal for crew than what is being offered now. They also are not that unhappy with the way things have gone. As the other side of the coin involved what we are seeing now, the destruction of BASSA as a union, and it's leaders. Once BA realised early on that a reasonable solution was not going to be forthcoming, the "destroy BASSA" button was pushed, and the negotiation style changed.
The ones that have lost out are of course the customers and the crew communtiy.
The ones that are following BASSA blindly, are now not going to be on the winning side. The scales have tipped too far, and will not go back the other way now. Rightly or wrongly. Walsh will finish the job. He's gone this far. He will cut off the head of the his "beast" so it will not return to cause trouble again. Leaving BASSA wounded risks a return of this situation again.
The temps in the hold pool are being brought to LGW next month, followed by new entrants after. Read into this what you will. But I'd guess new fleet is on it way (and quick) and LGW crew will be a big part of the setup. Secondments etc etc.
There's a big bit or your remaining 20% of your LH schedule.
LGW crew will do rest day working, and jump at the opportunity to do LHR LH work.
BA recruited a large number or crew relatively quickly to backfill WWLGW crew (800+). No reason they can't do this again. Especially with a load of temps that need next to no training to get them back on a BA aircraft. Add in to this people form other airlines with experience that can do "reduced courses" to get them out on line quickly. We have also seen how quickly they can get CAA approved crew out on line if needed (VCC).
So 5 week training courses may not be what we will see.
As has been said before. Sack a few militants, swallow the Unfair dismissal money when the cases come about. Watch the others come back to work. If they don't....sack them too. I think that is where we are.
I think the end game is near. There will be no prisoners.
Take a step back people.
As to the point of the % voting to strike. The ballot took place way back in the time line, as did the show of hand motions at meetings etc etc. So when the train started coming off the tracks (with the drivers shouting FULL STEAM AHEAD!) further down the line, you can't blame those who chose to get on it jump off and take their chances. So this I believe explains the votes vs strikers issue.
For what it's worth here's my view on it......
To begin with I think BA had a plan, but was willing to see if BASSA would see sense. The hope being they would think....."Ok change needed, lets accept some change now. Be involved. Limit damage to our members".
BA did however bet on the fact that BASSA would say NO NO NO. They were not dissapointed. Thus BA led BASSA through the hoops, and BASSA followed willingly saying NO NO NO. They could have suprised us all, but they didn't.
BA again knew this would happen, planned for it, flow chart followed accordingly. I really think BA would have accepted a far better deal for crew than what is being offered now. They also are not that unhappy with the way things have gone. As the other side of the coin involved what we are seeing now, the destruction of BASSA as a union, and it's leaders. Once BA realised early on that a reasonable solution was not going to be forthcoming, the "destroy BASSA" button was pushed, and the negotiation style changed.
The ones that have lost out are of course the customers and the crew communtiy.
The ones that are following BASSA blindly, are now not going to be on the winning side. The scales have tipped too far, and will not go back the other way now. Rightly or wrongly. Walsh will finish the job. He's gone this far. He will cut off the head of the his "beast" so it will not return to cause trouble again. Leaving BASSA wounded risks a return of this situation again.
The temps in the hold pool are being brought to LGW next month, followed by new entrants after. Read into this what you will. But I'd guess new fleet is on it way (and quick) and LGW crew will be a big part of the setup. Secondments etc etc.
There's a big bit or your remaining 20% of your LH schedule.
LGW crew will do rest day working, and jump at the opportunity to do LHR LH work.
BA recruited a large number or crew relatively quickly to backfill WWLGW crew (800+). No reason they can't do this again. Especially with a load of temps that need next to no training to get them back on a BA aircraft. Add in to this people form other airlines with experience that can do "reduced courses" to get them out on line quickly. We have also seen how quickly they can get CAA approved crew out on line if needed (VCC).
So 5 week training courses may not be what we will see.
As has been said before. Sack a few militants, swallow the Unfair dismissal money when the cases come about. Watch the others come back to work. If they don't....sack them too. I think that is where we are.
I think the end game is near. There will be no prisoners.
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WeLieInTheShadows that is a very good summary of how we have managed to reach this point. Sadly if it wasn't for the hardliners we would have been able to avoid new fleet, had some shares to inspire us to really make our customers happy, and a free ticket to take a holiday to wherever we wanted. In hindsight I think you would come across very few crew that would now no think that giving up a night in LA would not have been a small price to pay. As painful as it is to watch the monsters head coming off the sooner it is done the quicker the reasonable and reformed will be able to get on with building peace getting BA back to the top of the league tables.
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the flying nunn
Was this proposal for real? Did BF explain to the crew community that shares/tickets etc had been proposed but BASSA turned it down. Please point me in the right direction as I don't recall.
As for New Fleet being avoided, I don't think so. It was either NF as a seperate entity or NF by integrating 'New Crew' on to current fleets via an 'Integrated/Flexi Approach' with agreement changes.
Sadly if it wasn't for the hardliners we would have been able to avoid new fleet, had some shares to inspire us to really make our customers happy, and a free ticket to take a holiday to wherever we wanted. In hindsight I think you would come across very few crew that would now no think that giving up a night in LA would not have been a small price to pay.
As for New Fleet being avoided, I don't think so. It was either NF as a seperate entity or NF by integrating 'New Crew' on to current fleets via an 'Integrated/Flexi Approach' with agreement changes.
