British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Not all airlines are doing this badly are they?
It's totally pointless shouting about a headline grabbing figure without understanding the movements beneath it. A good example is BASSA constantly harping on about the money lost in fines but not considering the excess profit made during the same period. Or, indeed, the monies lost by BA through incomplete BAA systems checks during the opening of T5. Are we paying the same, initially agreed, rent for T5? Nope, BA secured a refund on the mess from the BAA which, in all likelyhood, more than covers the losses.
The pension schemes have a viable plan. It is the regulator who makes the final decision but, as pensions are based on long term future projections, the independant regualators position should be positive.
Swans may look serene on the surface but they are paddling like buggery underneath.
Don't detract focus from the mess BASSA have created. If BASSA had their way the losses would have been suicidal.
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Air France/ KLM posted a $2 billion annual loss and Lufthansa just reported a first quarter loss (presumably different accounting periods) of $430 million. This is all before the ash cloud problems of course.
At one of the pension briefings, Keith Williams explained why BA don't want to close NAPS. They would have to fully fund the scheme to close it, which obviously they can't afford. Active contributors help the funding. This isn't the NEXT issue to be tackled, it's being tackled at the moment and there is a plan which has been presented to the pensions regulator. Don't BASSA bother telling people this?
At one of the pension briefings, Keith Williams explained why BA don't want to close NAPS. They would have to fully fund the scheme to close it, which obviously they can't afford. Active contributors help the funding. This isn't the NEXT issue to be tackled, it's being tackled at the moment and there is a plan which has been presented to the pensions regulator. Don't BASSA bother telling people this?
Last edited by DextersLaboratory; 29th May 2010 at 07:50. Reason: Grammar
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These massive savings "everyone else" has made has still left BA making 1 billion losses over 2 years and the biggest pensions black hole in history. Not all airlines are doing this badly are they?
PARIS--Franco-Dutch airline Air France-KLM said Wednesday it sank deeper into the red in the year ended March 31 as the economic slowdown took a severe toll on passenger and cargo traffic.
Europe's largest airline by passenger traffic posted a loss of €1.56 billion ($1.9 billion) compared with a year-earlier loss €814 million. Revenue fell 15% to €20.99 billion.
Europe's largest airline by passenger traffic posted a loss of €1.56 billion ($1.9 billion) compared with a year-earlier loss €814 million. Revenue fell 15% to €20.99 billion.
India's Kingfisher Airlines lost (if my currency conversion is correct) $400 million, and they're an LCC.
I could go on, but what would be the point? Next question?
Added: Ah what the hell, just so we cover most of the globe:
Continental: $136 million in Q1 2010.
United (with whom Continental are now merging): $537 million in Q1 2010.
BA look quite respectable considering the ash cloud, winter shutdown and BASSA's suicidal acts.
Last edited by ChicoG; 29th May 2010 at 08:03.
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Yes everything is just rosey because Air France/KLM have lost even more. Anyone who thinks the BASSA battle is the last major cost saving to be made is living on fantasy island.
It will only take minor changes in pension laws to make FS scheme closure to current members viable now. I expect BA will be happy to take the hit and try to close it to current members over the next two years.
It will only take minor changes in pension laws to make FS scheme closure to current members viable now. I expect BA will be happy to take the hit and try to close it to current members over the next two years.
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If you were to take the APS/NAPS pension schemes back to before Unites favourite PM/Chancellor Gordo Brown changed the tax laws and began his 120 Billion tax grab from the schemes they were both healthy.
Ask yourself WHY have all the final salary schemes gone into defecit? Simple, Gordo Brown took all the money out and made it too expensive to maintain such schemes.
Project forward using the original tax schemes and take the worst financial recession since the great depression out of the equation and both schemes would be well in the black.
Not all that happens is the companies fault and I personally find it laudable that they are attempting to maintain the scheme even if I am no longer in it. But of course BASSA have spun that the scheme ONLY benefits flight crew therefore is nasty, underhand and unfair. Typical Unite/BASSA rhetoric.
Ask yourself WHY have all the final salary schemes gone into defecit? Simple, Gordo Brown took all the money out and made it too expensive to maintain such schemes.
Project forward using the original tax schemes and take the worst financial recession since the great depression out of the equation and both schemes would be well in the black.
Not all that happens is the companies fault and I personally find it laudable that they are attempting to maintain the scheme even if I am no longer in it. But of course BASSA have spun that the scheme ONLY benefits flight crew therefore is nasty, underhand and unfair. Typical Unite/BASSA rhetoric.
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Bizarre...
Does anyone else find Duncan's missives get more and more bizarre by the minute?
If I got this message from someone that was leading me and supposedly protecting my interests professionally I'd be very worried indeed.
For instance:
- Is there some Big Brother connection joke that I'm missing out on? Don't get that at all.
- The preoccupation with muffins, cakes and somosas etc makes me think of a school fete. I suppose the Pimms will be out next.
- Was he referring to the Manchester contingent as being drunk and noisy? Sounds like a good party!
- Don't get the gagging thing. No BA staff member may talk to the media without going through the press office. Maybe they've realised how bad all the noisy silly chanting looks on tv?
- I like the reference to 'get us back to being the worlds favourite airline'. Surely he means 'you' as I thought he wasn't employed by BA any more?
Above all I thinks it's the tone and content of the messages that I find peculiar.
Bizarre, bizarre, bizzare....
If I got this message from someone that was leading me and supposedly protecting my interests professionally I'd be very worried indeed.
For instance:
- Is there some Big Brother connection joke that I'm missing out on? Don't get that at all.
- The preoccupation with muffins, cakes and somosas etc makes me think of a school fete. I suppose the Pimms will be out next.
- Was he referring to the Manchester contingent as being drunk and noisy? Sounds like a good party!
- Don't get the gagging thing. No BA staff member may talk to the media without going through the press office. Maybe they've realised how bad all the noisy silly chanting looks on tv?
- I like the reference to 'get us back to being the worlds favourite airline'. Surely he means 'you' as I thought he wasn't employed by BA any more?
Above all I thinks it's the tone and content of the messages that I find peculiar.
Bizarre, bizarre, bizzare....
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I think everyone at BA realises (with the possible exception of Liz Malone and her crew) that costs need to be reduced. I also think that all of us realise that, after these cuts have been made, we won't be 'rosy' ad infinitum.
More challenges will come. More changes will be introduced and more savings will be demanded. That is the nature of business.
However, by having good NEGOTIATING teams who have a working relationship with the company many of these can be headed off, mitigated or prepared for. Exactly as all other departments in BA have achieved during these troubled times.
Only by taking the hardline 1970's style Unionistic stance of 'No, whats the question?' will the pain being felt by the normal working Cabin Crew at the moment come about. BASSA have failed to properly negotiate or engage with the company for the last 20 years.
Times move on and BASSA have been left behind.
More challenges will come. More changes will be introduced and more savings will be demanded. That is the nature of business.
However, by having good NEGOTIATING teams who have a working relationship with the company many of these can be headed off, mitigated or prepared for. Exactly as all other departments in BA have achieved during these troubled times.
Only by taking the hardline 1970's style Unionistic stance of 'No, whats the question?' will the pain being felt by the normal working Cabin Crew at the moment come about. BASSA have failed to properly negotiate or engage with the company for the last 20 years.
Times move on and BASSA have been left behind.
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whatsthisbuttondo
'Perhaps all the WW fans in here won't be crowing so much in a few months when it's them that are expected to adopt modern working practice in line with the rest of the industry.'
How dare you, I find your post offensive.
My department, like others, HAVE moved with the times. Not only have we 'adopted modern working practises' as you put it, we have seen jobs contracted out in addition to these 'changes' over the years.
How nice it would be if WE had guarantees.
This is the sort of thing that has caused deep, deep divisions. No wonder there is so much backing for Willie.
How dare you, I find your post offensive.
My department, like others, HAVE moved with the times. Not only have we 'adopted modern working practises' as you put it, we have seen jobs contracted out in addition to these 'changes' over the years.
How nice it would be if WE had guarantees.
This is the sort of thing that has caused deep, deep divisions. No wonder there is so much backing for Willie.
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Perhaps you could expand on that for us? I have heard some rumours that striking BA staff would not be allowed to return to work between the the 2 sets of strike dates. Haven't seen it confirmed by the company, but it has been hinted at.
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whatsthisbuttondo
These massive savings "everyone else" has made has still left BA making 1 billion losses over 2 years and the biggest pensions black hole in history. Not all airlines are doing this badly are they?
Make no mistake, after this is over the pension is one of the next issues to be tackled, both the deficit and the cost of the final salary scheme. Transferring current final salary pension members to the newer cheaper scheme will save millions. Most other industries have done this.
I wonder if you will all be so happy to help BA then.
Make no mistake, after this is over the pension is one of the next issues to be tackled, both the deficit and the cost of the final salary scheme. Transferring current final salary pension members to the newer cheaper scheme will save millions. Most other industries have done this.
I wonder if you will all be so happy to help BA then.
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What's next? Actually try to sort out the pension problem. Wind up the final salary pension scheme for current members like most other FTSE 100 companies have done?
If it didn't have a plan or that plan was judged to be ineffective, the pensions regulator would impose one of his or her own.
With the proposed changes in place, closing the schemes doesn't achieve anything; in fact it makes things worse for BA.
You're left with a deficit of exactly the same size that needs to be filled, only now instead of the burden of paying it off being shared by the company and contributing employees, the burden lies solely with the company.
(This is certainly the case for NAPS. Things are different with APS, the rules of which are less flexible.)
In case you missed the news, BA does have a plan (agreed with the unions) to sort out the pensions problem
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wotsthisbuttondo
Maybe you could visit other departments to see exactly what we do and have done over the times whilst you've been working at altitude.
Though, with the current strength of feeling amongst us, give it time...a long time.
Though, with the current strength of feeling amongst us, give it time...a long time.
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... isn't it time he (WW) actually tries to sort it out rather than playing big man to his fans in the office?
What's next? Cull the office numbers for the Iberia merger. Actually try to sort out the pension problem. Wind up the final salary pension scheme for current members like most other FTSE 100 companies have done?
Perhaps all the WW fans in here won't be crowing so much in a few months when it's them that are expected to adopt modern working practice in line with the rest of the industry.
BASSA may try and get the rest of BA on their side by threatening things will happen to other work groups in the future (and they will), but there will be not future if BASSA are not dealt with now
As said before, apart from 3/4000 cabin crew, i would say 99% of the rest are proud to BACK BA and not BASSA.
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Ask around...... you will find that VCC's working as pursers or CSD's will have been specifically trained for that role and a great numbers of them are former CSD's and pursers and probably have been such for longer that you have been flying.
This isn't about experience. If it was, the company would 'work up' crew based on seniority on a normal day (outside of strike time) and not just based on who was on standby.
This is about recognising the airline's loyal permanent cabin crew whose fight this is afterall, and who have opted to Back BA as opposed to towing the union line.
Why is WW still prolonging this hugely damaging industrial action?
The other because all that's been offered is the "suspension" of the strikes, and not the complete cancellation of them. If he gives what Bassa is asking for, all that will happen is we'll probably find ourselves being sent another ballot paper and find more strikes being called a few months down the line.
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We are a business to make profit, (and whatever happens to the strikers after 12 June is irrelevant today), we must look after our customers especially over the busy half term period.
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To all the striking Cabin Crew,
Take a look at ekwhistleblower's post 2 or 3 pages back.
I was involved in Sabena before it went down, all the pilots were told by the Union to go on strike and reject the restructuring plan to be implemented by the then CEO Christoph Muller.
Pilots were eventually told to go on "greve au finish" which means to go on strike till the Company caved in and agrees to meet the Union's demands.
The rest as they say is history, sure as hell the Company went bust, EVERYONE lost their jobs.
The Airline re-opened a few months later under a different name, they got rid of all the "old" staff on lucrative contracts, final salary pensions etc.
The ones that wanted and got re-employed had to re-apply for their jobs and IF employed were on much worse contracts than what they had in Sabena...
My two pence worth but be very careful to blindly believe and support your Union's stance in these difficult financial times.
Good luck to all.
Take a look at ekwhistleblower's post 2 or 3 pages back.
I was involved in Sabena before it went down, all the pilots were told by the Union to go on strike and reject the restructuring plan to be implemented by the then CEO Christoph Muller.
Pilots were eventually told to go on "greve au finish" which means to go on strike till the Company caved in and agrees to meet the Union's demands.
The rest as they say is history, sure as hell the Company went bust, EVERYONE lost their jobs.
The Airline re-opened a few months later under a different name, they got rid of all the "old" staff on lucrative contracts, final salary pensions etc.
The ones that wanted and got re-employed had to re-apply for their jobs and IF employed were on much worse contracts than what they had in Sabena...
My two pence worth but be very careful to blindly believe and support your Union's stance in these difficult financial times.
Good luck to all.
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VCC's a senior crew...
...Eddy don't get too cut up about VCC's working as Purser's or CSD's. The reason those of us, who had previous cc experience, were asked to do an SCCM course was to make sure that there was a pool of crew who could operate as the SCCM, in the event that the operating CSD didn't turn up.
From my own experience on the the three long haul flights I have done is that there has been a CSD on each of them and I've worked as a purser.
Have you considered volunteering to act as a Purser on your flights where the Purser has no showed or asked about doing the SCCM course to cover during the strike?
I'd much rather people with more experience were doing the job, but at the end of the day this is about getting as many of our customers as possible to where they want to go safely.
From my own experience on the the three long haul flights I have done is that there has been a CSD on each of them and I've worked as a purser.
Have you considered volunteering to act as a Purser on your flights where the Purser has no showed or asked about doing the SCCM course to cover during the strike?
I'd much rather people with more experience were doing the job, but at the end of the day this is about getting as many of our customers as possible to where they want to go safely.
&&&
BA management isn't on a cost cutting exercise,
