British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI

[Two-Tone-Blue]

FYI - BA reinstate more flights.

Last updated: 0915 - 18 March 2010

[sussex2]

Andyismyname:

The length of the strike has been well publicised.

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It is initially for just three days, thus no worse than severe weather or perhaps the grounding of an aircraft type for a short while.
What has happened IMHO is a case of 'What you use to protect you, can be used against you' in that the company have sought to use the press to put over their case, notably the more sensational press, this has backfired in making it seem far worse than it actually is.
The great pity of all this is what will happen to internal company relationships beyond this period, the acrimony and ill feeling will take a very long time to subside.
I see friends, close friends who have worked for the company for a very long time seriously upset, very seriously upset about it all.
To do this to loyal employees is a terrible thing, and both the company and the union involved should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Doors to Manuel

Sounds good to me. I wonder if there is anyone on the dole queue who could be persuaded to sign up?

Mate, I get what you're saying but we're talking about people doing this job long term, not just in the short term. In the long term I suspect a lot of people currently on the dole queue couldn't hack it. There's a reason they're unemployed when there are plenty of jobs out there - because they're either lazy, unwilling to lower their standards or because they're unemployable.

You could easily grab someone off the dole queue to do this job for two weeks. Any longer than that and I suspect they'd be dropping like flies.

Originally Posted by Doors to Manuel

Yes, I do sincerely respect there are situations like medical incidents, abusive members of the public etc. Not unlike being a class teacher, a shop worker or even a traffic warden, all of whom might fancy a bit of the above 'fun job' for more money than they earn now.

VERY unlike all those other jobs. Very unlike it because a traffic warden can run away. As can a teacher or a shop worker. These people can call the police if they're threatened or an ambulance if they see someone who is ill.

We have to be the police service, the ambulance service and the fire service. Our job is like no other.

And I doubt they'd earn more than they do now if they went on MY basic and earned MY extras.

Originally Posted by Doors to Manuel

Semantics. They are truly 'volunteering' (ie choosing) to undertake the activity And as someone else has already said, you have captured in just two words what many of our customers think the job is - a PJ!

They aren't volunteering - they are, as you correctly mention yourself, "choosing" to do something else. Same as the crew who did the relief flights to Haiti (no disrespect meant to them at all - they did a great, admirable thing). They were said to have volunteered, yet they were accommodated at the company's expense and given normal allowances. They elected to operate a flight with a difference - they didn't volunteer.

Originally Posted by CessnaPete

I agree with a lot you say. The job does have its difficult times, but you knew that when you joined it's part of the job-you are not forced to be cc.

Of course, Pete, and I get extremely annoyed when I hear about colleagues complaining about various elements of the job - like having to book hotels because they can't get home after a trip, or having to come to London for a one-day course. I signed up to do this job knowing roughly what it would entail, so I do it.

Originally Posted by CessnaPete

The problem on pay arises when a Purser gets about £700 allowances and long range payments for a 4 day trip to Hgk etc when our competitor, Virgin crew for example only get £240. BA cc costs are too high.

Let's remember that Virgin's crew get paid cash in hand. There's no doubt at all that Virgin crew are paid less than us, but the difference isn't realistically as great as people like to claim. When it comes to money in the bank, after BA crew have paid tax, a HKG is probably only worth a couple of hundred more for BA crew than for Virgin crew.

Originally Posted by CessnaPete

Also the lack of scheduling flexibility, whereby WW crew will not do Shorthaul trips without two local nights off. Recently this meant a Gov VIP charter of a BA 777, which included a european sector,needed three sets of cc to complete ,30 crew, but only one set of flightcrew.

This surprises me. I was always under the impression that VIP flights etc didn't have to abide by our usual Worldwide Scheduling Agreement.

In general, Pete, I can't disagree with much of what you say.

[Juan Tugoh]

Eddy

Ask the passengers of the BA038 if we're overpaid. And ask the family of the man whose life was saved by a BA crew in New York recently if we're overpaid.

The crew of the BA 38 and the crew in New York both performed superbly as they were trained to do, good for them.


Are you suggesting that these tasks would not have been done as well by the cabin crew at Virgin or EasyJet? Are you somehow better than them because you earn more money and have better terms and conditions? To imply that you are somehow superior to others because you earn more than they do actually tends to weaken your argument rather than strengthen it. It suggests that you think you are somehow superior and therefore deserve more than others who work for different companies doing the same job. Rather you are lucky to have got a job working for the company that pays the best with the best T&Cs.

This is not about pay as the only people who have asked you to take a paycut has been BASSA not BA

[Fox3Maddog]

Eddy

Yes - this job is a paid jolly, but it's a paid jolly that comes with a hell of a lot of responsibility and plays absolute havok with your body and your personal life.

But I don't need nor want sympathy for that - I signed up for it. What I do want - and hope for - is that the public sees that there's a lot more to this job than meets the eye.

At last some sense! I could not agree with you more. If I hear one more CC moaning and whingeing on the radio about "all the time spent away from home" and "loneliness downroute" im going to do my nut! What on earth do expect when you sign up for longhaul CC?!! For goodness sake, if you dont enjoy it - push off and make way for someone more enthusiastic who will make the most of the opportunites the job offers, instead of delsey-dining and living in a state of perpeptual misery. It would brighten up the workplace no end....

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Juan Tugoh

Are you suggesting that these tasks would not have been done as well by the cabin crew at Virgin or EasyJet? Are you somehow better than them because you earn more money and have better terms and conditions? To imply that you are somehow superior to others because you earn more than they do actually tends to weaken your argument rather than strengthen it. It suggests that you think you are somehow superior and therefore deserve more than others who work for different companies doing the same job. Rather you are lucky to have got a job working for the company that pays the best with the best T&Cs.

Mate, yes. I never thought I would, but yes - I am saying that we're more capable.

British Airways, because of its better terms and conditions, has traditionally been a place for people who want a career flying.

You're going to be better at something when you've been doing it for 15 years than if you've been doing it for 2 years.

Of course there are some very senior people at Virgin, for example. People who have been flying for ten or fifteen years for that company. But we've not really seen figures relating to what they earn. I suspect they're earning a pretty penny but because they're in the absolute minority we don't really take them in to consideration.

So I'm not saying that we're better because we're better, I'm saying we're better because we've been doing it for longer, have done more SEP visits and have probably encountered these incidents more frequently because we've been flying longer.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Fox3Maddog

At last some sense! I could not agree with you more. If I hear one more CC moaning and whingeing on the radio about "all the time spent away from home" and "loneliness downroute" im going to do my nut! What on earth do expect when you sign up for longhaul CC?!! For goodness sake, if you dont enjoy it - push off and make way for someone more enthusiastic who will make the most of the opportunites the job offers, instead of delsey-dining and living in a state of perpeptual misery. It would brighten up the workplace no end....

Agree entirely. And not afraid to say so under my real name.

Same goes for people with kids who feel the company owes them something because they have children and child care to arrange.

Back in "the day" women were sacked when they got married because this wasn't seen as a suitable job for someone with kids. Of course, the law changed and I'm happy about that because I love working with my colleagues who make us a very diverse group, but if you're going to have kids and still want to do this job, you shouldn't expect anyone to sacrifice anything or treat you any differently as a result.

Things like "I need to know [this] even though it's not normally advised because I have childcare to arrange".

[sussex2]

Haven't Virgin been running an ad recently celebrating their 25 years of flying, or thereabouts? Easy started in, when was it '95.
Those numbers should give anyone a hint as to why some BA cabin crew earn more.
I tend to wonder how someone in another profession, perhaps a civil servant, would feel if after years of hard work in an extraordinairy job, someone suggested they have their pay adjusted rearwards.

[Snas]

Mate, yes. I never thought I would, but yes - I am saying that we're more capable.

That might be true with regards to out of the ordinary incidents, I'm far from certain it applies to simple good old fashoined delivery of service, when the opposite may well apply.

I would also suggest that cost and service are considered when booking a flight long before people consider what will happen to them if they have a heart attack..!
It would be interesting to see a BA telly advert based on that aspect though

[TorC]

Contact

BBC News just reporting that BA have just said that WW is "in contact" with unions.

Also here: British Airways and Unite union in last-ditch strike talks | Business | guardian.co.uk

[sussex2]

A fair point, I was talking more from the perspective of the public. I suppose however that because we are interested personally in what is going on, our perspective could be very different from the public.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Snas

That might be true with regards to out of the ordinary incidents,

Good job that's what we were talking about then, eh!

Originally Posted by Snas

I'm far from certain it applies to simple good old fashoined delivery of service, when the opposite may well apply.

Hmmmm. I think you're right that length of service means nothing when it comes to how a service is delievered, but to make a sweeping statement that newer crew are better than older crew seems a touch unfair.

Originally Posted by Snas

I would also suggest that cost and service are considered when booking a flight long before people consider what will happen to them if they have a heart attack..!

Very true, but people are taking into account one airline's ability to re-route or reorganise flights should problems arise and at that British Airways excel (perhaps because they're sooooo used to doing it! )

Originally Posted by Snas

It would be interesting to see a BA telly advert based on that aspect though

I think an ad along the lines of "over the past five years, our crews have delivered 2 babies, saved the lives of eight people having heart attacks, dealt with 500 people feinting, 7 strokes and four serious allergic reactions : there's more to our crew than you might think" might be a good thing to put on TV.

- my ad text was shocking, but I don't work for Saatchi.

[Doors To Manuel]

Eddy,
I don't agree with everything you say, but please keep posting. It is refreshing to hear from someone who a) is genuinely BA CC b) is able to present a lucid, non emotive point of view. Hope there are more like you out there, regardless of which side of the picket line they will be on come Saturday.
Discussion is the only way to solve this.

This has screwed up my Easter holiday (ST), but I can live with that. Just don't screw up my pension!

Manuel

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by baggersup

With an alleged 123 unions around the world in support, it now appears the only people who won't be striking are the BACC themselves, judging by the stream of reinstated flights!

Ba are doing this extremely well. The stream of re-instated flights could be 100 or 10.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Doors to Manuel

Eddy,
I don't agree with everything you say, but please keep posting. It is refreshing to hear from someone who a) is genuinely BA CC b) is able to present a lucid, non emotive point of view. Hope there are more like you out there, regardless of which side of the picket line they will be on come Saturday.
Discussion is the only way to solve this.

This has screwed up my Easter holiday (ST), but I can live with that. Just don't screw up my pension!

Manuel

Hi DtM, thanks. Not sure I'll keep posting. Been a member here for ages but not posted in a while. Don't even know why I popped back.

I've always been realistic about the industrial situation at BA despite being an strong, supportive Bassa member. I've always looked at both sides of any argument and I've lost 'friends' because of it.

I think the reason I stopped posting here is because of the vitriolic nature of the posts that appear in any thread relating to BA cabin crew. People seem to forget that, regardless of how much more we earn than another airline's crew, we're human beings with feelings and we've all built lives based on what we earn now. To have those lives threatened as a result of sometimes unjustified cost cutting is as worrying as it is upsetting.

Yet people let personal feelings rule and post some truly horrible things. I don't like reading those things about my colleagues - or myself - regardless of whther I agree with my union's latest stance or not.

[Juan Tugoh]

Eddy

So I'm not saying that we're better because we're better, I'm saying we're better because we've been doing it for longer, have done more SEP visits and have probably encountered these incidents more frequently because we've been flying longer.

Having worked in both the charter sector and for BA I have to disagree with this. I honestly believe that BA's SEP training while good is too "fluffy". I have seen some appalling group exercises where there was no honest debriefing and the minimum standard acceptable was way below that I saw working at several charter airlines.

BA crew are no better or no worse than their colleagues working elsewhere. They may be better qualified to provide a service - some being nurses or have second and third languages, but the standard is no better. So we disagree - but that is a matter of perception.

Perhaps you can answer a more factual question. Crew are terrified about loss of earnings - a gentleman claimed on the radio the other day that after consulting with his accountant he would be 30% worse off. If this is the case why is it that BASSA want crew to have a paycut so that CSD's can do less work?

[Snas]

(job now seen as a jolly by the wider public)_
so obviously you have been out canvassing a poll inthe local shopping mall.Could you give us you're results that back up this thinking or is it purely you're own supposition?

No. But I have been reading the various "have your comments" sections that the newspapers love to run on their web sites under any story. ..or the comments under Youtube vidoes, or the fact that Unite have had to remove their telephone lines from their web site due to the number of abusive calls they were recieving.

Are you going to argue that public perception of cabin crew (probably all, not just BA) hasnt changed since pre December? - "perception" that is, right or wrong.

[52049er]

Just one final word about the 'volunteers' - dong forget that a pilot whose trip was cancelled as a result of the strike would lose their allowances of maybe £300.

Given as that quite a few FO's on long haul will take home less in a month than the 3 most senior Cabin Crew on their cancelled flight AND have training debts of £50k+, I don't really think getting those allowances for acting in a CC role is too beyond the pale, do you?

[AlpineSkier]

Deaths, hearts attacks etc

If anyone has access to these , could anyone post the real figures for a year's

a) Deaths
b) Use of defibrilator incidents
c) Use of forcible restraint on passenger

on BA ?

This because the talk of these things is so high-profile and mentioned so often that one would imagine the ideal CC recruit would be ex-special-forces with a medical degree and not as it really is.

@Eddy

I need to disagree with your earlier comments about the comparability of different jobs and CC. You say "

[QUOTE] VERY unlike all those other jobs. Very unlike it because a traffic warden can run away. As can a teacher or a shop worker. These people can call the police if they're threatened or an ambulance if they see someone who is ill. [QUOTE]


I think you are in a much easier position. You are in YOUR normal situation, with crew back-up and probably a dozen "volunteering" pax as well and little worry about the law condemning you for using too much force on normally just one person.

Compare that to a teacher being threatened by a wild 16 yr old , knowing that allegations of assault and suspension until court-case are almost guaranteed and any help is long minutes away and the assailant is probably stronger, and possibly armed, too .

By the way, are you willing to tell us your willingness to strike as previously asked ?

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by 52049er

Just one final word about the 'volunteers' - dong forget that a pilot whose trip was cancelled as a result of the strike would lose their allowances of maybe £300.

Given as that quite a few FO's on long haul will take home less in a month than the 3 most senior Cabin Crew on their cancelled flight AND have training debts of £50k+, I don't really think getting those allowances for acting in a CC role is too beyond the pale, do you?

Regardless, they're not volunteers. That's the only point I was trying to make. CABIN CREW are true volunteers when they work on the ground during disruption. They get no pay and they get no expenses. They are, as far as I'm aware, the ONLY employee group who don't enjoy any benefit of helping the company out in times like that.