British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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Surely If BASSA wish to have a pay freeze or a pay cut, it will have to go to a ballot of the union members? I did not think the Union had the right to impose such negotiated settlements on its members?
They did NOT ballot the members for it - it was simply offered on our behalf. Unbelievably, whilst the moderates held their head in their hands aghast at this, the majority thought it was great. BASSA 100%
So, fast forward forward 7 months, several Kempton Park meetings, 2 ballots and 3 court cases later and here we are again. Although this time allegedly they have proposed a 3.4 % pay cut. Why? Why? Why?
Whether it is in the constitution or not, they had a mandate at one of the Kempton Park farces NOT to negotiate. At the last meeting, there was no mandate, as I understand it, just an instruction to the masses to let them let BA think they were talking.
So, surely the mandate NOT to negotiate, however ridiculous it may have been, still stands?One thing I am grateful for is that my employer, BA, who have acted more than reasonably throughout all of this, recognise that fact. They did what Unite should have done - they conducted a survey and asked us what we wanted and overwhelmingly the result was WE DO NOT WANT TO LOSE MONEY. Thankfully, whilst Unite keep ignoring that fact, BA have honoured it. We can but hope they continue to do so.
The Professional Cabin Crew Council would not be offering pay cuts on behalf of crew. They would be negotiating on real issues that could limit the effect of New Fleet on current crew. And maintaining whatever salary and benefits we can. Isn't that what you pay a Union to do?
As soon as the majority of BA cabin crew have registered their interest with the Professional Cabin Crew Council and we can gain recognition with BA, then the PCCC will do exactly that.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
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Even the most dyed-in-the-wool, pro-BASSA activist MUST be beginning to wonder what on earth they voted YES to? After a year of "negotiations" the tip top team of arch union negotiators have decided that the interests of their members are best served by giving them a choice of a significant pay cut or going on strike.
GENIUS!!!!
Not forgetting the pay cut their oh-so-competent union ensured they would take after the HMRC fiasco...
Seeing as this proposal from BASSA also entails a return of the "lost" crew member on several services, you have seriously got to question their ability to even recognise what their member's interests are, much less actually represent them with anything approaching competence.
For a start, WW has stated categorically that the new crewing levels are HERE TO STAY. Once again, BASSA are trying to negotiate over something that is simply not up for discussion.
But secondly, even if recruitment were to be opened up again to provide the crew to meet the BASSA demand, what Ts and Cs are they going to be on?
Bonjour New Fleet, whose arrival has been hastened by BASSA.
Like I say, GENIUS!
I'm afraid the CC are in the worst possible lose/lose scenario.
GENIUS!!!!
Not forgetting the pay cut their oh-so-competent union ensured they would take after the HMRC fiasco...
Seeing as this proposal from BASSA also entails a return of the "lost" crew member on several services, you have seriously got to question their ability to even recognise what their member's interests are, much less actually represent them with anything approaching competence.
For a start, WW has stated categorically that the new crewing levels are HERE TO STAY. Once again, BASSA are trying to negotiate over something that is simply not up for discussion.
But secondly, even if recruitment were to be opened up again to provide the crew to meet the BASSA demand, what Ts and Cs are they going to be on?
Bonjour New Fleet, whose arrival has been hastened by BASSA.
Like I say, GENIUS!
I'm afraid the CC are in the worst possible lose/lose scenario.
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Let's do a bit of lateral thinking here.
BASSA know the CC don't want a paycut. They offer to BA the paycut proposal, hoping that BA accept (subject to acceptance by CC).
BASSA do the vote for acceptance of a pay cut (drags on for a month)
Lo and behold, CC reject the pay cut. Back to square one!
BASSA have managed to drag it out without having to commit to a strike immediately.
So what happens after that scenario? Do you honstly think BASSA would have thought that far?
BASSA know the CC don't want a paycut. They offer to BA the paycut proposal, hoping that BA accept (subject to acceptance by CC).
BASSA do the vote for acceptance of a pay cut (drags on for a month)
Lo and behold, CC reject the pay cut. Back to square one!
BASSA have managed to drag it out without having to commit to a strike immediately.
So what happens after that scenario? Do you honstly think BASSA would have thought that far?
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Volunteers are human as well... they are not DOGS!
'You will never get such service from someone 'trained' to do the job. You train dogs, not humans.
What BA senior management have done wrong in this dispute is to attempt to demonise all cabin crew, including those that do an excellent job; as with all things in life this will rebound. That has been a very wrong thing to do.
It has been an utter disgrace to publish crews allowances in the red top press, and has blatantly shown how low the management of the company is prepared to sink.
BA management will win this dispute, of that I have no doubt. But, I do wonder what worth they will be afterwards; who will trust them?'
I am sorry but volunteers are human beings, certainly not dogs that are being trained. They have the motivation for what they are doing, to save their jobs and their livelihood. That gives them passion in what they are doing: ok the service will not be the full service customers are used to, but there's no doubt it will be professional and it will be given with commitment and warmth.
Those people are going to be there with a purpose and to show customers that BA does care and that we are all prepared to go even more than the extra mile to help.
You have worked with competent and professional crew members? We know most crew do a fantastic job, this is not in dispute. However the idea that they should stop doing a good job or being professional because time has changed and the company cannot afford the current agreements is ridiculous. We all had to work harder as a result of the current situation. We are all standing unite (to quote what is my union as well!) working harder and doing our best in what are very challenging circumstances. You are not the only ones, and you won't be the last ones to make sacrifices!
You ask the question 'who will trust the management?' my challenge to you is: who has ever trusted the management in the crew community in the past? Apart from a minority, crew seem to be believing that whatever is published in the various internal communication channels is a lie. So what's new now?
You did not believe in the company before and you won't believe in the company in the future. no changes there.
The difference is that now the rest of the company and the public know the actual figures (with the understanding that as with every average, individuals figures will differ from the average, but the average is meant to show what the cost is to the company) and this feels uncomfortable. Maybe the union should have thought about this before pushing things to this extent. It works for them that crew don't trust BA management, but then they have to live with the consequences of what this means.
But comparing volunteers to dogs is a disgrace, as I am sure no crew likes to be compared to anything undignified.
What BA senior management have done wrong in this dispute is to attempt to demonise all cabin crew, including those that do an excellent job; as with all things in life this will rebound. That has been a very wrong thing to do.
It has been an utter disgrace to publish crews allowances in the red top press, and has blatantly shown how low the management of the company is prepared to sink.
BA management will win this dispute, of that I have no doubt. But, I do wonder what worth they will be afterwards; who will trust them?'
I am sorry but volunteers are human beings, certainly not dogs that are being trained. They have the motivation for what they are doing, to save their jobs and their livelihood. That gives them passion in what they are doing: ok the service will not be the full service customers are used to, but there's no doubt it will be professional and it will be given with commitment and warmth.
Those people are going to be there with a purpose and to show customers that BA does care and that we are all prepared to go even more than the extra mile to help.
You have worked with competent and professional crew members? We know most crew do a fantastic job, this is not in dispute. However the idea that they should stop doing a good job or being professional because time has changed and the company cannot afford the current agreements is ridiculous. We all had to work harder as a result of the current situation. We are all standing unite (to quote what is my union as well!) working harder and doing our best in what are very challenging circumstances. You are not the only ones, and you won't be the last ones to make sacrifices!
You ask the question 'who will trust the management?' my challenge to you is: who has ever trusted the management in the crew community in the past? Apart from a minority, crew seem to be believing that whatever is published in the various internal communication channels is a lie. So what's new now?
You did not believe in the company before and you won't believe in the company in the future. no changes there.
The difference is that now the rest of the company and the public know the actual figures (with the understanding that as with every average, individuals figures will differ from the average, but the average is meant to show what the cost is to the company) and this feels uncomfortable. Maybe the union should have thought about this before pushing things to this extent. It works for them that crew don't trust BA management, but then they have to live with the consequences of what this means.
But comparing volunteers to dogs is a disgrace, as I am sure no crew likes to be compared to anything undignified.
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Quote Freddielaker
'
Originally Posted by sussex2
I have just flown two sectors with BA across the Atlantic, and I have this to say; that I have never flown with such professional and considerate cabin crew
There is an implication from your post that you were a passenger, but you don't actually say so......?
Yes indeed I was a pax and had a very pleasant experience.
What is happening now at BA I have seen before. It is almost a mirror image of what happened 10 or 15 years ago at AA. The saddest bit of which is that the behaviour of both sides caused much resentment, some of which lasts to this day. Resentment among those that wanted to strike, against those that did not, and against those 'volunteers' who were trained up to allow aircraft to fly during the strike.
'
Originally Posted by sussex2
I have just flown two sectors with BA across the Atlantic, and I have this to say; that I have never flown with such professional and considerate cabin crew
There is an implication from your post that you were a passenger, but you don't actually say so......?
Yes indeed I was a pax and had a very pleasant experience.
What is happening now at BA I have seen before. It is almost a mirror image of what happened 10 or 15 years ago at AA. The saddest bit of which is that the behaviour of both sides caused much resentment, some of which lasts to this day. Resentment among those that wanted to strike, against those that did not, and against those 'volunteers' who were trained up to allow aircraft to fly during the strike.
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Have a cup of tea and calm down
IMHO, bitsnpieces (#1965) was given excellent advice by BASSA and (s)he would do well to heed it.
In fact, bitsnpieces should henceforth eschew PG Tips, and go to Fortnum & Mason to buy the best possible tea leaves available, no matter what the cost, providing the tea costs no more than £15.
This purchase could be funded with the money saved by cancelling his/her BASSA membership.
C'mon, bitsnpieces: you know it makes sense - especially the last bit.
In fact, bitsnpieces should henceforth eschew PG Tips, and go to Fortnum & Mason to buy the best possible tea leaves available, no matter what the cost, providing the tea costs no more than £15.
This purchase could be funded with the money saved by cancelling his/her BASSA membership.
C'mon, bitsnpieces: you know it makes sense - especially the last bit.
Last edited by Chuchinchow; 6th Mar 2010 at 10:12.
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Sussex2
Anyone who looks through your previous post history will see your relationship with cabin crew.
Has anyone thought that perhaps BASSA has suggested a larger pay cut than last year is simply because the required sum to be saved is the same, but having now dragged their feet for months, they simply have to give more, as the timescale has reduced?
Or back date the pay cut!
In other words, it may be the same they as they offered last year!
I feel genuinely sorry for our cabin crew. If our BALPA reps had fed us the disingenuous information that they have been fed, most of us might be tempted to ignore what BA are saying.
I just don't know what more BA can do to try to get crew to understand the facts.
Anyone who looks through your previous post history will see your relationship with cabin crew.
Has anyone thought that perhaps BASSA has suggested a larger pay cut than last year is simply because the required sum to be saved is the same, but having now dragged their feet for months, they simply have to give more, as the timescale has reduced?
Or back date the pay cut!
In other words, it may be the same they as they offered last year!
I feel genuinely sorry for our cabin crew. If our BALPA reps had fed us the disingenuous information that they have been fed, most of us might be tempted to ignore what BA are saying.
I just don't know what more BA can do to try to get crew to understand the facts.
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Yes I do have a relationship with cabin crew, and pilots, and ground crew, and office staff.
I've been actively involved in the airline business since I grew hairs I can sit on, and I've seen it all before, and my bottom line is that I think it is sad to have come this far. I blame both sides equally, in being ridiculous and manipulating, neither one will come out shining from this.
Once again this is a mirror image of previous disputes, it has happened before and the end result will be the same, resentments that linger on for years.
I've been actively involved in the airline business since I grew hairs I can sit on, and I've seen it all before, and my bottom line is that I think it is sad to have come this far. I blame both sides equally, in being ridiculous and manipulating, neither one will come out shining from this.
Once again this is a mirror image of previous disputes, it has happened before and the end result will be the same, resentments that linger on for years.
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BASSA come up with a deal they know BA and the CC will not accept.
BASSA call strike.
CC say not interested in BASSA deal and don't support strike , prefer BA option.
BASSA say strike failed and blame CC for lack of support.
Maybe BASSA are being cleverer than we think.
BASSA call strike.
CC say not interested in BASSA deal and don't support strike , prefer BA option.
BASSA say strike failed and blame CC for lack of support.
Maybe BASSA are being cleverer than we think.
sussex2
I can agree with a lot of what you say but not:
A look back through the previous 100 pages, a look through both judges comments post the court cases, a look at BASSA/UNITEs statements plus a read around of a lot of the last couple of years financial press will show that one side has been much more manipulative of the truth than the other.......
I blame both sides equally, in being ridiculous and manipulating,
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From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...es-over-Labour-
The influence Unite has over Government policy and statements has been highlighted recently by the failure of ministers to speak out against the threatened BA strike, which could damage the status of the airline internationally as well as disrupt the travel plans of thousands of families.
Labour ministers supported the union’s campaign to keep Cadbury, the chocolate maker, in British hands.
The full article on p10 of today's paper version makes interesting reading.
The influence Unite has over Government policy and statements has been highlighted recently by the failure of ministers to speak out against the threatened BA strike, which could damage the status of the airline internationally as well as disrupt the travel plans of thousands of families.
Labour ministers supported the union’s campaign to keep Cadbury, the chocolate maker, in British hands.
The full article on p10 of today's paper version makes interesting reading.
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Sussex2
With regard to the blame, I agree both sides must take equal share. The negative relationship that has been there during my 15 years in the company has been bred by both sides. The management treating the crew like kids, no influence over their roster in longhaul, and not listening to genuine concerns.
However, BASSAs stance has been either la-la fingers in ears, not listening, or the typical over-my-dead body approach.
This approach may have worked previously but as we are about to see over the coming weeks, this will not be allowed to.
The worldwide recession has forced both sides to confront their poor relationship, and BA's attitude to crew has reaped what it has sown. As has BASSA's attitude towards negotiation.
HOWEVER....
There is no excuse for ignoring facts - not going along to examine the books was a major fault.
Denying the facts that the City has full access to (and therefore BA would be prosecuted if it misled them) has resulted in a denial attitude that BASSA has now bred in our crew.
So when people like myself volunteer, it is not to deny cabin crew their right to strike.
It is defending my company's financial position, having taken in the facts.
And as for BASSA final offer, I truly wish our crew would simply examine the facts. And they won't .
Because they have been grossly misled.
I wish it was different
With regard to the blame, I agree both sides must take equal share. The negative relationship that has been there during my 15 years in the company has been bred by both sides. The management treating the crew like kids, no influence over their roster in longhaul, and not listening to genuine concerns.
However, BASSAs stance has been either la-la fingers in ears, not listening, or the typical over-my-dead body approach.
This approach may have worked previously but as we are about to see over the coming weeks, this will not be allowed to.
The worldwide recession has forced both sides to confront their poor relationship, and BA's attitude to crew has reaped what it has sown. As has BASSA's attitude towards negotiation.
HOWEVER....
There is no excuse for ignoring facts - not going along to examine the books was a major fault.
Denying the facts that the City has full access to (and therefore BA would be prosecuted if it misled them) has resulted in a denial attitude that BASSA has now bred in our crew.
So when people like myself volunteer, it is not to deny cabin crew their right to strike.
It is defending my company's financial position, having taken in the facts.
And as for BASSA final offer, I truly wish our crew would simply examine the facts. And they won't .
Because they have been grossly misled.
I wish it was different
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Nevermind
I just don't know what more BA can do to try to get crew to understand the facts.
In most other industries the answer would be simple: Allow the management to continue the factual/dignified and respectful path (as exemplified by WW last Wednesday). And, at the same time other employee groups that have contact with the the aggrieved section,(CC), "tell them a few home truths".
In BA the best group to do that would be the pilots. The problem is that the contact that they have tends to be when they are flying aircraft together. Not a good time to deal with highly charged and complex issues without adversley effecting a good team spirit and/or safety.
Even if they so try, I imagine the response would be rather the same as Mandy Rice-Davies remember her? (at the High Court) -
"Well (s)he would say that wouldn't (s)he!"
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Sorry the last link didn't come out fully. Should have been Britain’s biggest union 'takes over' Labour after £11m donations - Telegraph
Historically both sides probably are to blame - In the past Cabin Crew management at BA has seemed to have done anything for a quiet life. At the first sign of major disagreement the BASSA Reps have said "no", the war drums have started beating, BASSA have threatened IA and management has certainly given the appearance of backing down. Indeed in some ways this may well have been politically expedient for those Board members who were charged with cabin crew Issues. It led to BASSA gaining a reputation for being bloody minded, and since times were good the solution to many problems seemed to be the use of the mythical money hose. The Cabin Crew were able to claim, correctly, they had a strong Union that got results, their T&Cs were world leading and the moderates were invisible. This state of affairs was indeed BA's "fault", if we are apportioning blame.
Fast forward to recent years. The economy has nosedived and more importantly for BASSA the make up and style of Senior BA management changed. Here is where BASSA stuffed up. They could not see that the current leadership team were not going to be cowed and they failed to notice that they had lost their guardian angel at board level. So when BASSA were asked to negotiate their response was still the same: a failure to negotiate in any meaningful way and I suspect a blind hope that if they stalled long enough the recession would either go away and/or the management would give up and take the money from other Departments budgets'. BASSAs failure to move with the times has now left them, and their members, horribly exposed.
In short, yes, BASSA and BA probably are historically to blame; but the blame for the current debacle lies squarely in BASSAs lap.
Fast forward to recent years. The economy has nosedived and more importantly for BASSA the make up and style of Senior BA management changed. Here is where BASSA stuffed up. They could not see that the current leadership team were not going to be cowed and they failed to notice that they had lost their guardian angel at board level. So when BASSA were asked to negotiate their response was still the same: a failure to negotiate in any meaningful way and I suspect a blind hope that if they stalled long enough the recession would either go away and/or the management would give up and take the money from other Departments budgets'. BASSAs failure to move with the times has now left them, and their members, horribly exposed.
In short, yes, BASSA and BA probably are historically to blame; but the blame for the current debacle lies squarely in BASSAs lap.
Last edited by wiggy; 6th Mar 2010 at 13:56.
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How amazing that some people "blame" BA for not addressing these issues years ago and allowing the strength of BASSA to grow.
Here we are in harsh trading conditions and look what happens when BA does try and make a stand.
No wonder previous boards gave up.
BASSA has been armed and dangerous for years, it's held BA to ransom and now finally someone is standing up to them.
It would be nice if this could all end peacefully and the crew could get the paycut they so desperately want, alas BASSA need their wings clipped if this company is to have any future.
Here we are in harsh trading conditions and look what happens when BA does try and make a stand.
No wonder previous boards gave up.
BASSA has been armed and dangerous for years, it's held BA to ransom and now finally someone is standing up to them.
It would be nice if this could all end peacefully and the crew could get the paycut they so desperately want, alas BASSA need their wings clipped if this company is to have any future.
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This looks pretty much like a pre-emptive PR strike to me.
BASSA/Unite are 'throwing an olive branch' to the company for them to peruse and accept reject as they see fit.
Once rejected then Unite have to call the strike but assault the press with slogans based upon the rhetoric such as 'We offered them the savings but they didn't take them' and 'We were prepared to take cuts but BA want the whole cake' etc... etc... etc...
Sadly this blatent attempt at gaining the public sympathy vote doesn't take into account that BA has never asked for pay cuts. BA has never threatened actual, enforced, permanent job losses. BA has asked for a minor productivity increase which has enabled 1000 VOLUNTARY redundancies and thousands to take up part time work. A rather generous lifestyle choice on the part of the participants.
BASSA have had a year to engage in meaningful discussion and have failed. Time up. Call the strike and take the consequences.
BASSA/Unite are 'throwing an olive branch' to the company for them to peruse and accept reject as they see fit.
Once rejected then Unite have to call the strike but assault the press with slogans based upon the rhetoric such as 'We offered them the savings but they didn't take them' and 'We were prepared to take cuts but BA want the whole cake' etc... etc... etc...
Sadly this blatent attempt at gaining the public sympathy vote doesn't take into account that BA has never asked for pay cuts. BA has never threatened actual, enforced, permanent job losses. BA has asked for a minor productivity increase which has enabled 1000 VOLUNTARY redundancies and thousands to take up part time work. A rather generous lifestyle choice on the part of the participants.
BASSA have had a year to engage in meaningful discussion and have failed. Time up. Call the strike and take the consequences.