British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI

[Weather Map]

If i was post 97 cabin crew i would not be happy about it .Very nice for La La and all those senior CSD/PSR BASSA reps.Post 97 crew must make up the majority of the membership and say roughly four thousand crew if that on the old contract. For those on the new contracts very poor represenation.

[spin_doctor]

The only sense I can make out of this is a last ditch attempt to win over the doubters/public to the BASSA cause.

The detail of their final offer is not yet known, but reported to include a pay cut. If initial figures are accurate there is no way it is anything like large enough, and anyway WW has said he isn't re-instating the extra crew, so it will fail.

BASSA then announce, reluctantly, that they have no option but to strike. Of course it's nothing to do with pay, since they offered to take a pay cut and BA rejected it, it's a much more noble cause. They are lining themselves up as the poor victims of capitalism/WW/whoever the 'enemy de jour' is.

[Glamgirl]

I certainly won't be happy with a pay cut, that's for sure.

It seems to me that the crew members who go on about how awful the reduced crew complement are WWLHR CC. Some of them say they're ok with the new complements, but they find it difficult on the high-J 747 flights. How about this for a solution for them: Re-instate the crew member on the high-J, but WWLHR CC take a pay cut to finance it. I don't know how big a pay cut they'd need to take, but it would be more fair than all CC having to take a pay cut, even if they can cope with the new complements.

We've already had the tax shambles, which will see me at least £100 worse off each month. Add on around £40 due to a pay cut I don't agree with, and I will certainly not be happy.

Having said all that, I don't think WW will "do a deal". He's categorically said that the crew member(s) isn't coming back on board. The 3.4% pay cut doesn't amount up to £60m. Also, the 2 year pay freeze has already been implemented, so that's not a new one.

I've got quite a lot of "Weakest Link" put-downs running through my head right now, such as "a few fries short of a happy meal". That's in regards to unite/bassa, just to be absolutely clear.

Gg

I'm BA cabin crew and this is my opinion and not that of my employer

[chrisbl]

All profits are out of the pocket of employees.

Not the brightest thing to say;

No, all profits come out of the pockets of the customer.

[Papillon]

Not the brightest thing to say;

No, all profits come out of the pockets of the customer.

You've misunderstood the point. You don't take on a staff member unless the revenue you gain exceeds the amount it costs to employ them. If the staff cost exceeds the revenue, you have a problem. Where it's difficult in a big company is you can't accurately assign revenue against cost, but the central principle stands, that staff are there to generate profit for the company.

[slimey99]

I am by no means a fan of BASSA / Unite, but if the previous offer which included a 2.61% pay cut was valued by PWC at £50Million, then an increased pay cut could get them to £60Million?

Of course , the main problem with this seem to be that Sky and others are reporting that the 3.4% is in fact an extended pay freeze rather than any real pay cut . So I agree with Spin Doctor, that the figures just can't add up.

Based on WW's statement that they would each have to give up several thousand. Foregoing an increment and small increases to allowances is not going to get them there... so what else could be included???

Lastly, I would imagine that BASSA will also have included several conditions that hinder the introduction of new fleet and therefore hinder the further savings that WW needs to make over the medium term.

As I say, I am no fan of BASSA but this is a better offer in terms of public perception at least

[Watersidewonker]

Just a few days to go now then we can standby for BA's big plans if things are not sorted out. BA have project Middlesbrough and project Sunderland to fall back on,details of the top secret charter arrangements that we have known for months now. Oh have I said too much perhaps some Watersiders know even less than I do BA forum spies please take note.

[Timothy Claypole]

Is that why you were so surprised about it on CF? Why so many doubts being voiced if you're ready to strike? Not so happy now you've realised a strike vote won't force Willy to back down. He wants £140M, he won't accept a paltry £60M from Unite. Spanking time!

[JazzyKex]

And the fact that you know the codenames of completely open plans means what WWW?

Are you still happy with the 'negotiated' deal BASSA has come up with?

Did the crew give BASSA a mandate to reduce their pay or are BASSA intending to IMPOSE a pay cut on their membership?

Oh dear...love to know what the 'average' crew member thinks about the latest move....

Jazzy

[DP.]

Newswires now reporting that BASSA have offered BA a 3.4% paycut and a 2 year pay freeze, and have given BA until Tuesday to accept, or they will strike.

From an outsiders point of view, this is utterly remarkable.

Surely the union must realise what an unholy PR disaster (although on past history, maybe not) they are about to walk into by calling a strike, because Willie Walsh says "we don't want our staff to lose pay"?

[tomkins]

Glamgirl,
really seems like we at LGW would come out of this and the tax hike pretty badly, however ,looking on the bright side of things ,at least I could probably make up most of the difference with an increase in my Working Tax Credits

[chrisbl]

Quote:
Not the brightest thing to say;

No, all profits come out of the pockets of the customer.
You've misunderstood the point. You don't take on a staff member unless the revenue you gain exceeds the amount it costs to employ them. If the staff cost exceeds the revenue, you have a problem. Where it's difficult in a big company is you can't accurately assign revenue against cost, but the central principle stands, that staff are there to generate profit for the company.

I did not misunderstand the point. Actually in a big company it is much easier to match revenue with their costs as roles and functions are more specific. In smaller companies where people carry out a number of roles, it becomes more difficult to assign in this way.

As far as staff costs and revenue is concerned where you say "if the staff costs exceeds the revenue you have a problem" nothing profound there. The issue is not just staff costs. Total costs have to be less than revenue to make a profit, not just staff costs.

Some costs are more controllable than others. Fuel is less controllable and if everyone gets it about right costs the same.
Aircraft maintainence costs vary depending on the condition of the fleet.
Aircraft financing costs depend on the viability of the carrier, its creditworthiness and therefore the costs it has to pay to borrow money.
And so on.
Labour costs are controllable. Either people change or people change.

Oversimplification underestimates the complexity of running a major business especially an airline of the size of BA. Want BA to be simple, look at Ryanair.

[Papillon]

chrisbl

Actually, no it isn't, because the cost allocation within BA is horribly skewed in all directions, and impossible to reconcile, since it's been built over 40 years or more. There have been attempts at various times to re-do it, they weren't completed for a variety of reasons.

I'm more than aware of the difficulty in doing this, that's why I talked of a principle and nothing more, in the case of BA those costs are far, far more complex than the short simplistic list you provide.

[bitsnpieces]

i called the union earlier adn was told to have a cup of tea and calm down. im not very happey with that, as i was relly worried about the paycut.

[617sqn]

Funny old world isn't it.
Who has offered the better deal willie Walsh or Bassa?

[Caribbean Boy]

Cost savings

This is my understanding. BA wants £127m in cost savings from cabin crew by March 2011, and the crew reductions amount to £62.5m per annum. Furthermore, 1,003 crew left on voluntary redundancy last year and another 3,000 will go part-time. The real negotiations should be about how to get £127m in cost savings. But what does Unite do? Keep banging on about restoring crew complements and appealing against the judgement that working one down was reasonable.

I fail to see how Unite's latest proposal of a two-year freeze on pay and allowances, amounting to £12m, will make a difference. I have some considerable doubt that there will be an agreement by next Tuesday.

[spin_doctor]

bitsnpieces

Time to join a new union maybe? Perhaps a professional body that will ask you what you are prepared to negotiate on, rather than come up with a much worse offer than the imposed solution just so they can say it was their plan.

If only someone was starting up such a professional body....

[FL370 Officeboy]

Anyone with half a brain can see straight through BASSA here so let's hope the BA cabin crew can.

Let's see...if BA take one crew member off each flight this means a significant reduction in the number of crew required = less UNITE members.

So, at the moment UNITE receive 12,000 crew's subs, which at £15 per month would be £180,000 per month.

A reduction in required crew means a reduction in the captive audience for UNITE to sign up as members. This would stagnate/reduce their subs takings. So, if they volunteer a pay cut for their members whilst maintaining current crewing levels, this will maintain their £180,000 per month take. Pilot subs are calculated as a % of salary so would of course decrease..not so with cc subs.

So, UNITE would rather see their members worse off and maintain their own income than see their members maintain their current pay and reduce UNITE's subs take. Nice.

[bitsnpieces]

spin doctor - i've writing a quit letter to union this evening. i will not pay to that union no more. i like the other organisaition, i will serch more. thank you.

[Diplome]

bitsandpieces:

Were you serious in your previous post?

We you actually told to have a cup of tea and calm down when calling BASSA/Unite?