British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For cabin crew to turn round and blame BASSA at this stage is unacceptable.They knew exactly what putting a cross in the box meant i do not have any sympathy for them .BA cabin crew can and do on a regular basis stick up for themselves i have seen it often they have a voice.If WW does not crush BASSA now they will walk away and claim victory again .
One little worry!
Overheard some loaders talking about the famil flights this week. It would appear that unite are putting pressure on members - secondary strike action do I hear!
I also know of a tug driver who volunteered, but left on day 3 after being 'spoken to'. Even after returning the guys in his section are not speaking to him.
There have been several incidents of sabotage recently on aircraft, with essential items being rendered ineffective or being removed. Grounds for instant dismissal - after a good kicking as well hopefully!!
IF bassa & unite push the nuclear button this is going to get very nasty, very quickly. Not just the cowardly threats from anonymous posters, but physical threats.
Thankfully I know that the company are also aware of this and will have 'measures in place'! I genuinely hope that these measures include (not exclusively of course) the use of the heavies to gently dish out summary punishment.
Well, maybe if not now .... later!!!
Overheard some loaders talking about the famil flights this week. It would appear that unite are putting pressure on members - secondary strike action do I hear!
I also know of a tug driver who volunteered, but left on day 3 after being 'spoken to'. Even after returning the guys in his section are not speaking to him.
There have been several incidents of sabotage recently on aircraft, with essential items being rendered ineffective or being removed. Grounds for instant dismissal - after a good kicking as well hopefully!!
IF bassa & unite push the nuclear button this is going to get very nasty, very quickly. Not just the cowardly threats from anonymous posters, but physical threats.
Thankfully I know that the company are also aware of this and will have 'measures in place'! I genuinely hope that these measures include (not exclusively of course) the use of the heavies to gently dish out summary punishment.
Well, maybe if not now .... later!!!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: England
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Madness, bonkers, crazy, insane.
My wife is a neonatal intensive care nurse and does a 12 1/2 hour shift but is only paid for 11 1/2 hours as 1/2 hour lunch and 2 breaks are on her own time. For lunch she brings in food from home as there are no on site facilities particularly at night. Different jobs with different terms I accept that but this is reality for many still lucky enough to have a job. I suspect most UK airlines don't have these goldplated or even solid 24 k gold extra payments.
If I were BA I would go after these as recompense for the millions lost through threats/ actual strikes.
Regards
They have an industrial agreement to have a 2 1/2 hour minimum turnaround at main base (LHR). This goes back to the days of long coach journeys to canteens to ensure a hot meal could be taken during a day. On those occasions when not enough time was available to get to the canteen outside the perimeter of Heathrow, a CAT (Central Area Turnaround) payment was paid - though the 'CAT Lounge' (situated airside in T1) was a fully functioning cafe/TV lounge in its own right.... The CAT payments are still made for 'short' (<2.5hr though never less than 90 mins I think) turnarounds despite crew never needing to leave T5
If I were BA I would go after these as recompense for the millions lost through threats/ actual strikes.
Regards
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA are taking any threats against other individuals VERY seriously.
Sabotage of an aircraft is a criminal offence. If some people are doing this they are gambling with not just their livelyhood but their liberty.
Sabotage of an aircraft is a criminal offence. If some people are doing this they are gambling with not just their livelyhood but their liberty.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LGW
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Staff Travel Concessions withdrawal for Strikers
This certainly has got the attention of potential striker and questions are being asked if it is legal as we speak.
"They can’t do that, ….can they? It must be against the law."
Not an actual quote but that would best describe the opinion.
The current BASSA response is that ultimately a case could be taken to the European Court of Human Rights citing discriminatory withdrawal of benefits for staff participating in Industrial Action. It does not clearly state it, but the inference is that under current UK employment law the case would probably fail but could ultimately be appealed and referred to the European Court where it may get a more sympathetic hearing.
Although courts are on the whole unpredictable in these matters, it would certainly be a very long and expensive road for Unite to successfully challenge the promised withdrawal of concessionary benefits.
"They can’t do that, ….can they? It must be against the law."
Not an actual quote but that would best describe the opinion.
The current BASSA response is that ultimately a case could be taken to the European Court of Human Rights citing discriminatory withdrawal of benefits for staff participating in Industrial Action. It does not clearly state it, but the inference is that under current UK employment law the case would probably fail but could ultimately be appealed and referred to the European Court where it may get a more sympathetic hearing.
Although courts are on the whole unpredictable in these matters, it would certainly be a very long and expensive road for Unite to successfully challenge the promised withdrawal of concessionary benefits.
On the use of power
I posted yesterday, saying that an 80% vote in support on an 80% turnout was solid support, and that ths dispute would now be settled by the use of power on both sides.
A certain Mr C Whelan, who used to be a Government spin doctor, in the Campbell/Mandy mode, but without their charm, left the Government in difficult circumstances a while ago. The nice Trade Union, Unite, decided entirely of their own volition, of course, to give Mr Whelan a job.
If you folk would explore a little, I think you'll find that Mr Whelan is one of the "gofers" between Unite and our much loved Government.
I suspect that our esteemed Government's Department of dirty tricks is now heavily involved in the BA dispute.
What with the internal warfare in Unite, and the involvement of one of our favourite spin- doctors, this saga will run and run.
As I speculated yesterday, can anyone else see Mandy as the peacemaker here?? Not, of course, that he would do it just before an election, now, would he???
A certain Mr C Whelan, who used to be a Government spin doctor, in the Campbell/Mandy mode, but without their charm, left the Government in difficult circumstances a while ago. The nice Trade Union, Unite, decided entirely of their own volition, of course, to give Mr Whelan a job.
If you folk would explore a little, I think you'll find that Mr Whelan is one of the "gofers" between Unite and our much loved Government.
I suspect that our esteemed Government's Department of dirty tricks is now heavily involved in the BA dispute.
What with the internal warfare in Unite, and the involvement of one of our favourite spin- doctors, this saga will run and run.
As I speculated yesterday, can anyone else see Mandy as the peacemaker here?? Not, of course, that he would do it just before an election, now, would he???
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Down the airway.
Posts: 689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How much of this will be Charlie Whelans opportunuty to reinvent himself?
Already he is political director of Unite. I am not so sure that he is a friend of Mandelsohn but if he smooths the pathways in Unite to ease BASA out of the conflict with face, he will do himself into a job in a future Labour Cabinet. He is a fly fisherman and that means he has patience, guile and talent for a long cast.
Already he is political director of Unite. I am not so sure that he is a friend of Mandelsohn but if he smooths the pathways in Unite to ease BASA out of the conflict with face, he will do himself into a job in a future Labour Cabinet. He is a fly fisherman and that means he has patience, guile and talent for a long cast.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bath Road
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
52049er
LHR EF is inflexible in terms of scheduling with crew sitting in CRC on long 2½ hour turnarounds when their days should be made so much shorter. Take for example CDG-LHR-MAN-LHR - looking at some random flights now. With their 2½ hour turnaround their "duty" - not including clear time - from chocks on to off is 6:40 when it could be 4:30 - with the latter including a 40 minute turnaround between CDG and MAN at LHR.
The Flight Crew gave up all those agreements years ago and now can do minimum time (usually 40 mins at LHR, less at LGW) turnarounds whilst staying on the same aircraft. The CC obviously needs to be changed at every LHR turn which, as you say, adds hugely to the operational complexity.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: An anger-management clinic.
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't it that sort of micro-management of various agreements, many of them rooted in the mists of time, that have led to this unhappy place?
I am not for one moment suggesting a blank sheet of paper (although NewFleet might be just that) but there seems to be so much 'baggage' from history that is preventing the 21st C BA from moving forward to competitiveness.
I am not for one moment suggesting a blank sheet of paper (although NewFleet might be just that) but there seems to be so much 'baggage' from history that is preventing the 21st C BA from moving forward to competitiveness.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: brighton
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
power
ancient
`` and that this dispute would now be settled by the use of power on both sides.``
Very interesting!
As I see it BASSA have no power in this dispute BA hold all the aces now , strike or no strike.
BUT I guess it wouldn`t be wise to underestimate the influence and connection with Mr Whelan to the government and any pressure that may come from that direction. It seems that Mr Brown is not the only one under pressure for alledged bullying and Mr Whelans alledged style may cause a rift in that relationship. Mandy and Whelan do not enjoy the best of friendships as a side issue.
WW has not got on well with governments in the past though has he. Remember EI was a state owned carrier BA is not. So do you think WW will bow to political pressure?
Is this a battle Brown will want to get involved in particulalry as polls show very little public support for BA cabin crew. Will he want to be associated with the `loony left`?
I think not!
But may be the only hope BASSA have.
`` and that this dispute would now be settled by the use of power on both sides.``
Very interesting!
As I see it BASSA have no power in this dispute BA hold all the aces now , strike or no strike.
BUT I guess it wouldn`t be wise to underestimate the influence and connection with Mr Whelan to the government and any pressure that may come from that direction. It seems that Mr Brown is not the only one under pressure for alledged bullying and Mr Whelans alledged style may cause a rift in that relationship. Mandy and Whelan do not enjoy the best of friendships as a side issue.
WW has not got on well with governments in the past though has he. Remember EI was a state owned carrier BA is not. So do you think WW will bow to political pressure?
Is this a battle Brown will want to get involved in particulalry as polls show very little public support for BA cabin crew. Will he want to be associated with the `loony left`?
I think not!
But may be the only hope BASSA have.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting BA announcement on their ahem popular social networking feed used by the likes of Stephen Fry announcing CAA approval of BA's plans for training pilots and ground staff to serve as cabin crew.
Last edited by Papillon; 24th Feb 2010 at 17:19. Reason: Clearly, links to that site are unwelcome, so I've deleted it
It's simpler than that. Unite, BA, and the Government, all want a "real" strike.
Unite will find it helpful in their internal jockeying.
BA need to destroy Bassa. (Properly destroy)
The current Govt want a real strike so that they can solve the strike - and point out that the Tories would have no chance of solving strikes. Thus, the involvement of the delightful Mr CW.
As to what real BA CC with mortgages and families want, I'm afraid that they are now irrelevant in what has become a power struggle. Indeed, even the sensible ones on here , T,GG et al, might end up being used/abused in this messy process.
Unite will find it helpful in their internal jockeying.
BA need to destroy Bassa. (Properly destroy)
The current Govt want a real strike so that they can solve the strike - and point out that the Tories would have no chance of solving strikes. Thus, the involvement of the delightful Mr CW.
As to what real BA CC with mortgages and families want, I'm afraid that they are now irrelevant in what has become a power struggle. Indeed, even the sensible ones on here , T,GG et al, might end up being used/abused in this messy process.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Snas as you seem to have access to the `other sites`
I was talking about the public page facing here, where the Iwo Jima image has been replaced by nice happy faced crew, much better.
The BASSA page here, still uses Iwo Jima.
..and whilst I'm still banging on about images this one here of Mr Walsh somewhat speaks to the unprofessional attitude of the union I feel.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe that biggest BASSA nightmare of New Fleet for all could come true, and their prophecy be realised, but only if they fail to realise the game is up and rapidly get around the table with BA to really negotiate.
If they don't and call for strike action tomorrow, then I can see BA issuing 90-day SOSR notices (as suggested by BASSA's own QC) with all to leave or sign up to their worst nightmare of industry +10%.
Conceding defeat is the only way forward, then they negotiate the orderly migration of routes to New Fleet (no way to avoid NF imho).
Me? I hope they continue true to form.
If they don't and call for strike action tomorrow, then I can see BA issuing 90-day SOSR notices (as suggested by BASSA's own QC) with all to leave or sign up to their worst nightmare of industry +10%.
Conceding defeat is the only way forward, then they negotiate the orderly migration of routes to New Fleet (no way to avoid NF imho).
- They will have to realise that no crew will be reinstated.
- They will have to renegotiate the Disruption Agreement
- They will have to get rid off EF turnaround restrictions
- concede that NF will be totally separate ie no mixing of crews
- retain existing allowances and box payments for existing fleets
- retain existing hotel arrangements
- retain existing downroute turnaround timings
- avoid mass transfer of lucrative routes to NF and make them pro-rata
Me? I hope they continue true to form.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sabotage.
For evidence of this look at the 767 fleet. The last two, on which I flew, had clearly been subject to horrific acts of wanton sabotage.
As a result, both airframes creaked, groaned and rattled their sad disfigured way across the cruel sea in shambolic, damaged shape. Funnily enough a description of the CC too.
Or they could be just time ex'd and knackered; the airframes that is.
Please, please, be aware that some might see BA as a failing airline that would make the old Aeroflot look good and so wish to see Phoenix London Air emerge from the ruins.
If you are one of the future losers my condolences. the best of luck in what ever is your next endeavor.
God Bless, please inform next of kin.
Sir George Cayley
For evidence of this look at the 767 fleet. The last two, on which I flew, had clearly been subject to horrific acts of wanton sabotage.
As a result, both airframes creaked, groaned and rattled their sad disfigured way across the cruel sea in shambolic, damaged shape. Funnily enough a description of the CC too.
Or they could be just time ex'd and knackered; the airframes that is.
Please, please, be aware that some might see BA as a failing airline that would make the old Aeroflot look good and so wish to see Phoenix London Air emerge from the ruins.
If you are one of the future losers my condolences. the best of luck in what ever is your next endeavor.
God Bless, please inform next of kin.
Sir George Cayley
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: An anger-management clinic.
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly this is all going 'political' instead of addressing reality.
Everyone here has read all the details of the dispute, I'm sure. There are different perspectives about T&C, and pay/allowances (dare one mention the latter?) but now there seems to be a trend towards 'electioneering'. I do find that rather disturbing. At what point does an apparently silly "Industrial Dispute" become something designed (?) to favour the incumbent Government?
As for the rest of BA staffs, and the passengers, they seem to be completely sidelined. It does make me wonder.
Everyone here has read all the details of the dispute, I'm sure. There are different perspectives about T&C, and pay/allowances (dare one mention the latter?) but now there seems to be a trend towards 'electioneering'. I do find that rather disturbing. At what point does an apparently silly "Industrial Dispute" become something designed (?) to favour the incumbent Government?
As for the rest of BA staffs, and the passengers, they seem to be completely sidelined. It does make me wonder.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Oxford
Age: 56
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there a doctor on board???
Snas,
Thanks for posting those links to the UniteBA site - very illuminating!
I cannot believe the level of stupidity that these people are stooping too: "If there is a medical emergency on board the aircraft, any s*** crew WILL NOT BE ABLE TO LIFT A FINGER TO HELP."
What absolute rubbish! The explanation immediately below the statement explains that this rule refers to the administration of certain medicines only, and precludes any staff member who isn't trained to a specific standard.
How can anyone who is deliberately making misleading and emotive statements (like above) be allowed any where near a first aid kit - let alone be made responsible for the safety of members of the public?
Thanks for posting those links to the UniteBA site - very illuminating!
I cannot believe the level of stupidity that these people are stooping too: "If there is a medical emergency on board the aircraft, any s*** crew WILL NOT BE ABLE TO LIFT A FINGER TO HELP."
What absolute rubbish! The explanation immediately below the statement explains that this rule refers to the administration of certain medicines only, and precludes any staff member who isn't trained to a specific standard.
How can anyone who is deliberately making misleading and emotive statements (like above) be allowed any where near a first aid kit - let alone be made responsible for the safety of members of the public?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CC Volunteers can set up the defibrillator but not press the button, basically. Each flight will therefore need just the one 'fully' qualified crew member to do the work, but to quote the AVMed instructor,
"You are being trained to the same standard as other cabin crew, but because this is a 1 day and not a week long course, the CAA felt unable to give it full acreditation"
The instructor said it was a stupid decision by the CAA, but they are the regulators and what they say, goes.
"You are being trained to the same standard as other cabin crew, but because this is a 1 day and not a week long course, the CAA felt unable to give it full acreditation"
The instructor said it was a stupid decision by the CAA, but they are the regulators and what they say, goes.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: brighton
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
almost
Top Bunk
almost bang on but...
havent BA offered guarantees under your `they may` section?
i believe the box payments are protected under the attendance allowance not sure about allowances though i think they stay as they are under the BA proposal.the transfer of routes was protected too
the biggest stumbling block imho is that any crew wanting promotion wud have to transfer to the new fleet with SERIOUS loss of earnings by dropping in basic salary/increments.
would any legacy crew be able to transfer from the old LHR WW to the old LHR EF?
so if they can get over those two hurdles then some sort of compromise may be achievable
BASSA have to find a way out without massive cost to BA
almost bang on but...
havent BA offered guarantees under your `they may` section?
i believe the box payments are protected under the attendance allowance not sure about allowances though i think they stay as they are under the BA proposal.the transfer of routes was protected too
the biggest stumbling block imho is that any crew wanting promotion wud have to transfer to the new fleet with SERIOUS loss of earnings by dropping in basic salary/increments.
would any legacy crew be able to transfer from the old LHR WW to the old LHR EF?
so if they can get over those two hurdles then some sort of compromise may be achievable
BASSA have to find a way out without massive cost to BA
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wascrew
The point is that if BASSA don't negotiate, then ALL previous BA offers are OFF the table. ie there are no guarantees.
Given that, why wouldn't BA go for the jugular, the 100% solution?
The point is that if BASSA don't negotiate, then ALL previous BA offers are OFF the table. ie there are no guarantees.
Given that, why wouldn't BA go for the jugular, the 100% solution?