British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI

[Litebulbs]

Glamgirl

Why would people come on here? Why do you? Debate is healthy.

What you and your colleagues are trying to do, is commendable. You want your voice to be heard and you believe that Unite are not listening. That is a very valid point. You and your fellow PCCC supporters have many non crew supporters on Pprune. You also have many supporters who are willing to train as cabin crew to strike break, if the ballot is in favour of IA.

Every now and then, you are going to get people who do not agree with you. There have been many posts blaming Unite for not negotiating with BA. But you have to look at what you have posted and relate that to what many people are saying that Unite are not doing.

I have my views and I will post on here. I will not say whether BA cabin crew Unite members should strike or not however.

[Vld1977]

Personally, I donīt agree with THIS strike. Or, better, I think the strike is not the best way to defend their point (which I consider to be legitimate) on this occasion. But what really shocks me is the amount of people in this forum who actually want to see the strikers sacked, and who seem to think that companies should sack workers who dare going on strike. Strike is a legal right and a company cannot sack anyone who decides to strike legally.
Is this really what all these posters (who seem to like and suport the idea of strikers being sacked) think is the way forward? Ban strikes or abolish the right to strike? Arenīt you workers as well?

[Dawdler]

vld1977

Personally, I donīt agree with THIS strike. Or, better, I think the strike is not the best way to defend their point (which I consider to be legitimate) on this occasion. Strike is a legal right and a company cannot sack anyone who decides to strike legally.
Is this really what all these posters (who seem to like and suport the idea of strikers being sacked) think is the way forward? Ban strikes or abolish the right to strike? Arenīt you workers as well?

I tend agree with you that Unite/Bassa would be better keeping their powder dry for future battles. The strike is stated or understood to be about the imposition of new crewing levels on some flights. The case in the High Court is about the same thing. If Bassa were confident of winning the case perhaps they wouldn't be pursuing the strike route. In the event of their losing the case, where does that leave the strike call? A protest about something that is within the law. It has been said many times that strikers CAN be sacked, but not without consequences (Tribunal). I think that opponents of the strike are wanting the dispute to be resolved, and the normal operation of airline resumed. It has certainly done enough damage to the product so far. However if those so adamantly pro strike continue to damage the company, perhaps their opponents wish for them to go is understandable.

Quite what their opponents can do with the information regarding website/facebook/text message activities and misdemeanours is open to conjecture. But certainly the lack of denial of involvement in these activities does tend to lead one to the assumption that a truthful denial cannot be made. This makes a mockery those trying to promote the image of BASSA as a professional organisation.

[Stoic]

Judgment

I note that on the courtservice website, Court Hearings - Queen's Bench Division there is no mention of a court being set aside for the handing down of the judgment today. Any information on when it will be handed down?

[Stoic]

Baggersup

Thanks Baggers. And at the top of the page it says: "It is emphasised that the following list is provisional and subject to change until 4.30pm. Any alterations after this time will be telephoned or emailed direct to the parties or their legal representatives."

Regards

S

[flapsforty]

Much time and bandwith has been (ab)used discussing what has happened on other websites.
Please now cease and desist and concentrate instead on the issues.

Not the supporting acts, not the collateral dramas but the issues concerning BA cabin crew industrial relations.

Thank you.

[beerdrinker]

Nothing on the Queens Bench web site mentioned above about BA v "Certain Bassa Reps" on tomorrow's lists. I wonder what is going on.

[fincastle84]

Court Case

I thought that I had read previously that the result wasn't due until next week, after the result of the strike ballot.

[Walnut]

I suspect the judgement will not be declared until after the ballot closes, either way it will have a profound effect on the outcome of this dispute. The city hates uncertainty which is why the share price has been largely flat despite the very good news re the tie up with American airlines.

[SlideBustle]

BASSA/Unite have stated many times to members that the strike/ballot will still go ahead no matter what the outcome of the court case. Their reasoning is because the court case is about crew complements being contractual or not. The ballot is being about imposition. Their argument is that it wasn't just crew complements that were imposed, and even if it is non-contractual - BASSA/Unite still need to be consulted and agree to changes first.

''This week it's crew complements being imposed, next week it is allowances'' as they always say. Forgetting that Pay is indeed contractual and Bill has said this in webchat's that Unite/us would need to agree to changes in pay/allowances.

[essessdeedee]

BASSA/Unite still need to be consulted and agree to changes first.

Consultation does not need 'agreement' All that needs to happen is that the views of crew are considered through consultation. If the Union declines the invitation to consult (e.g. the CW 2nd meal service and the crew complement changes), then BA will still go ahead with its plans.

[Watersidewonker]

WOW with less than a week to go until the massive YES vote arrives i am getting so excited and with the bonus of a High Court topup around the same time. The media are taking a turn away from BA from what i have read in recent days so let us wait and see what the future brings. Cranebank has many eyes and ears and that is what a democratic system in this country allows or have i said too much.

[LD12986]

The media are taking a turn away from BA from what i have read in recent days so let us wait and see what the future brings.

Quite the opposite. The media now see that BA has turned a corner and things are on the up (no thanks to BASSA). It has been given the provisional go ahead for ATI with AA, the Iberia merger is on track, last quarter it posted an operating proft. If you're expecting the media to do a volte face and come out in support of BASSA, I'm afraid you're mistaken. When you look at the last quarter's results (profit only due to cost-cutting) management has been vindicated in the need to get the cost base down.

See second item in this article:

IPOs need the ethics of yesteryear | Markets & Analysis

[TheTiresome1]

From LD12986's post, it would seem that there are bigger issues afoot. I do wonder how that might affect the overall position on IA? I have a faint feeling that Watersidewonker's enthusiasm might be misplaced. Perhaps he/she reads the wrong newspaper?

[wascrew]

other issues

Looking at what BA have proposed to safe guard current crew with regards to pay and the `new fleet` it doesnt seem too bad though long term the future prospects for routes and/or promotion opportunities are much less attractive.
There are `other things` on the BA shopping list which may have escaped many. One, I have recently discovered is the change to the Disruption Agreement to the Operational Recovery Procedure which includes such wording as .......
"BA may invoke the 'Operational Recovery Procedure' at any time when BA considers that planned schedules or other operations have been disrupted for any reason. Once invoked, and notwithstanding any other contractural provisions otherwise applicable to unions or Cabin Crew, British Airways may take such steps and require Cabin Crew to take such steps and perform such duties, as it considers appropriate to resolve the disruption"
and
"Cabin crew may be required to vary their scheduled roster and to undertake such additonal or different duties as may be required to continue to provide our services"

Vague wording and one area which would cause me serious concern.
I have heard no mention that BA would be willing to vary this part of their `wish list` as part of their proposals.
So in effect your roster could be wiped completely at almost any time and you could find yourself working anywhere doing anything. Baggage Handling for example.
It seems BASSA have rejected this out of hand and on this I dont blame them one bit. I do blame them for not moving/negotiating seemingly in other areas.
Not sniping but what are the PCCC`s views on the proposed/wanted ORP versus what appeared to be initially `slight` changes to the Disruption Agreement.

[Weather Map]

BA is an airline unsociable hours and putting up with major disruption IS part of the package.If some cabin crew don't like it perhaps they should think of leaving and take on a job that is more suitable for their needs.

I see the BASSA press is hot tonight more rumours from waterside

[wascrew]

disruption

Weather Map
Disruption and working unsociable hours IS part of the package and believe me sometimes dirsuption is the better part of the package in some ways. It is then that the skill, knowledge,experience and the ability to think on your feet comes to the fore and this may sound perverse but it is also enjoyable in a way aside from the more mundane days. It does of course mean that any appointments or plans you have may have to be re-arranged or go out of the window
IMHO this ability to think on ones feet is what separates BA crews from the `metronomic` behaviour of some airline crews.
However the consequences of what ORP could lead to not just in lifestyle change and the inability to run a life outside of your obligations to BA in the way BA want it is unacceptable to be honest. In spite of what you might think as in other areas of employment BA crews have the right to have a life outside work. Many have families to run as well as work for BA not all `trolley dollies` are young free and single as you may mistakenly believe.
Other areas in BA have volunteered their services iob the event of a cabin crew strike but this ORP could mean for example if the bagagge handlers go on strike then the crew will be re-deployed as baggage handlers or in any area of the business.
I initially saw BA`s proposals as fair and saw the reasoning behind wanting to bring the cabin crew wages and agreements into the 21st century but now I have seen this ORP it is clear IMHO that BA`s agenda is much more sinister than that.

[LD12986]

Do I detect an attempt to shift the agenda away from the imposition of changes to crewing levels onto the changes to the disruption agreement?

[wascrew]

NOPE

LD not from me
I think the crew changes are acceptable for current crew and the safeguards given to current crew adequate apart from anyone wanting and expecting a long career with promotion opportunities
But I didn`t know about this ORP and it certainly has changed my view on the ambitions of the company and I dont think the ballot is simply and all about working 1 crew down.

[LD12986]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there haven't been any changes to the disruption agreement yet, so it cannot be a legitimate reason for the strike ballot?

One week before the ballot closes, it is somewhat late in the day for this to be suddenly flagged up as a major issue....