British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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BASSA's posts have the hallmarks of a union under siege, gripped by fear and paranoia
Luckily it seems that some crew are beginning to see through that and to realise that it's been driven by just that - fear and paranoia.
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High Court on Tuesday?
Would anyone care to join me for a drink on Tuesday when the High Court adjourns for lunch?
We could discuss the BASSA vs British Airways case on a ball-by-ball basis.
We could discuss the BASSA vs British Airways case on a ball-by-ball basis.
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I think the (long-term) result will be gotterdamerung, or "a twilight of the gods", as Richard Wagner had it. In other words, mortal damage to both parties.
BASSA, in my opinion, seems to be behaving like a mortally wounded animal: threshing around, clawing and biting at anything and anyone near it.
BA, on the other hand, knows that it is haemorrhaging money; that is accepted by everybody. It has enormous commitments to its pension fund, to institutional investors, to all of its employees - and to the nation. It cannot be seen to fail or to be "beaten" by one union: BASSA.
I do not think that HM Government will intervene in any way. The British public, now struggling under the load of £178 billions' worth of public debt incurred by bailing out the banks last year, would not tolerate it. In any case, EU regulations prevent that.
Don't forget that a general election must be called within the next five months at the very most. The British electorate would not support a political party that proposed to throw good money after bad, so to speak.
If you want my personal opinion (FWIW), in the longer term (i.e. beyond next Sunday night) BASSA will be forced under, and BA management will take decisive control of the company and the way in which it will be managed.
I do not say that with any relish whatsoever. I know that most of my postings on this and the earlier thread are anti-BASSA, but I have lived in two different countries where the militant trade unions thought that they were in charge of the various enterprises and not the management.
It is quite true that I could now be described as a "capitalist lackey", but in the late 'sixties and the 'seventies I was a very militant shop steward - in the civil aviation business, strangely enough. The vagaries of life can be very interesting.
The bottom line is that if BASSA persists in trying to run - and to ruin - BA it will mean the destruction of the livelihoods and the futures of thousands of men women and children.
These people will not necessarily just be BASSA members and their families, but members of all the other BA-related unions, BA contractors and their employees and their families, BA employees and their families at overseas stations, and people working at airports around the globe and their families.
The list is endless.
I wish all of you, personally, the very best of luck, and I extend my genuine and fervent hope that - whatever happens - you and yours survive that gotterdamerung I referred to earlier.
BASSA, in my opinion, seems to be behaving like a mortally wounded animal: threshing around, clawing and biting at anything and anyone near it.
BA, on the other hand, knows that it is haemorrhaging money; that is accepted by everybody. It has enormous commitments to its pension fund, to institutional investors, to all of its employees - and to the nation. It cannot be seen to fail or to be "beaten" by one union: BASSA.
I do not think that HM Government will intervene in any way. The British public, now struggling under the load of £178 billions' worth of public debt incurred by bailing out the banks last year, would not tolerate it. In any case, EU regulations prevent that.
Don't forget that a general election must be called within the next five months at the very most. The British electorate would not support a political party that proposed to throw good money after bad, so to speak.
If you want my personal opinion (FWIW), in the longer term (i.e. beyond next Sunday night) BASSA will be forced under, and BA management will take decisive control of the company and the way in which it will be managed.
I do not say that with any relish whatsoever. I know that most of my postings on this and the earlier thread are anti-BASSA, but I have lived in two different countries where the militant trade unions thought that they were in charge of the various enterprises and not the management.
It is quite true that I could now be described as a "capitalist lackey", but in the late 'sixties and the 'seventies I was a very militant shop steward - in the civil aviation business, strangely enough. The vagaries of life can be very interesting.
The bottom line is that if BASSA persists in trying to run - and to ruin - BA it will mean the destruction of the livelihoods and the futures of thousands of men women and children.
These people will not necessarily just be BASSA members and their families, but members of all the other BA-related unions, BA contractors and their employees and their families, BA employees and their families at overseas stations, and people working at airports around the globe and their families.
The list is endless.
I wish all of you, personally, the very best of luck, and I extend my genuine and fervent hope that - whatever happens - you and yours survive that gotterdamerung I referred to earlier.
Last edited by La Pouquelaye; 1st Feb 2010 at 11:26. Reason: Punctuation
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I would not rule out the possibility of an out of court settlement between BA and Unite either before or during the court case. I have seen it elsewhere where one party is, in public at least, hell bent on pursuing a case (with little merit) against another and they capitulate before the end of the hearing.
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What os your gut feeling on the outcome?
And the train crash rolls slowly on.....
What's your gut feeling litebulbs?
I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own view and not that of BA.
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Assuming you mean the court case, I think Unite are getting very nervous about costs. Hence the possible delay? I would guesstimate an out of court settlement in order to prevent Unite getting hit with HUGE costs.
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It is interesting, and absolutely repulsive, to see the "S word" posted on the Amicus website.
A brief history. In 1989, CC89 broke away from BASSA. They refused to strike, when BASSA wanted them to. Then again in 1997 they did not strike. Then in 2007, the almost strike, they would not strike.
So, on no less than 3 historical occasions in the past Amicus/CC89 have been coming into work while BASSA where going on strike. Now, all of a sudden, anyone who considers coming into work is "S word".
Amicus/CC89 are nothing but hypocrites. They have completely and utterly ripped up their very own raison d'etre and are doing the things that they vowed to their members they would not. In my opinion that is an offence far greater than someone who comes into work, to save their job and feed their family.
They should be well and truly ashamed. They are a disgrace to the members they purport to represent.
I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own view and not that of BA.
A brief history. In 1989, CC89 broke away from BASSA. They refused to strike, when BASSA wanted them to. Then again in 1997 they did not strike. Then in 2007, the almost strike, they would not strike.
So, on no less than 3 historical occasions in the past Amicus/CC89 have been coming into work while BASSA where going on strike. Now, all of a sudden, anyone who considers coming into work is "S word".
Amicus/CC89 are nothing but hypocrites. They have completely and utterly ripped up their very own raison d'etre and are doing the things that they vowed to their members they would not. In my opinion that is an offence far greater than someone who comes into work, to save their job and feed their family.
They should be well and truly ashamed. They are a disgrace to the members they purport to represent.
I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own view and not that of BA.
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HiFlyer
Is not the PCCC what CC89 set out to be, before the merger? As others have said before, it was not long ago, that the two legacy groups within Unite had completely different views on this situation.
Unite is shaping itself for the future, so as you can no doubt imagine, there is a fair bit of politicking going on. That does not help cabin crew within BA. One thing has happened though, they are now singing from the same hymn sheet, but as far as I can tell, it is the wrong song for you.
Unite is shaping itself for the future, so as you can no doubt imagine, there is a fair bit of politicking going on. That does not help cabin crew within BA. One thing has happened though, they are now singing from the same hymn sheet, but as far as I can tell, it is the wrong song for you.
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La Pouquelaye
fantastic post above,now if you could add a couple of pictures you know,perhaps the Beckhams and some Eastenders people,make it look flashy,OK! style and I'll drop around crew centre,maybe they'll understand our point lol!
I heard so many crew,so many times saying that they rather go bust than give in that somehow I feel that would serve them right BA going under.Start again,fresh,do it JAL style and see what happens....
fantastic post above,now if you could add a couple of pictures you know,perhaps the Beckhams and some Eastenders people,make it look flashy,OK! style and I'll drop around crew centre,maybe they'll understand our point lol!
I heard so many crew,so many times saying that they rather go bust than give in that somehow I feel that would serve them right BA going under.Start again,fresh,do it JAL style and see what happens....
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LD12986
Or BA could simply go for the throat of this witless, poorly led organisation and put it out of business. Think UNITE are going to subsidise eejits like Loopy?
In the case I referred to above, both sides agreed to meet their own legal costs and not make a claim against the other side, so that could be a factor in a settlement. Pure speculation, I should add.
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First read this:
And then read this utter garbage from the retarded UNITE dinosaurs:
Still the same old lies and still the same weak excuses.
Notice how the 150 million, then 175 million, is now 100 million? Notice how the pay CUT has now become a pay FREEZE?
This union is absolutely full of
I hope BA goes for their throat.
SINGAPORE: The global airline industry will take at least three years to recover after the worst recession in six decades hurt travel demand,
said Giovanni Bisignani, CEO of the International Air Transport Association (IATA). The airline industry globally lost $50 billion in the past 10 years, with $11 billion in 2009 alone. Revenues declined by $80 billion last year, Bisignani said.
“These numbers are really shocking,” Bisignani said. “We’ve had a terrible 10 years. It would take at least three years to recover the level of growth we have lost.” Airlines worldwide suffered the worst drop in passenger demand since World War II last year, IATA said on January 27. The global travel slump has pushed carriers including Singapore Airlines and British Airways into losses and forced Japan Airlines to file for bankruptcy.
Traffic dropped 3.5% last year, with declines exceeding 5% in Europe, North America and the Asia-Pacific region, said IATA, which represents 230 carriers.
The economic slump and credit crisis have cost carriers 2 ½ years of growth in passenger markets and 3 ½ years in freight, so that 2010 will be ‘another spartan year’ of cost controls and capacity caps, Bisignani had said earlier.
British Airways expects a ‘bigger loss’ in the 12 months ending March 31 than it had in fiscal 2009, chairman Martin Broughton said on January 25. Singapore Air, the world’s second-largest carrier by market value, may have its first annual loss as a publicly-traded company, the carrier said in July. Japan Air this month became Asia’s first major flag carrier to seek bankruptcy protection after four government bailouts failed to revive it. More airlines will go bankrupt, Bisignani said today. About 34 carriers have gone out of business since 2008, according to IATA.
Passenger yield, or the average price a traveller pays to fly one kilometre, will remain “flat” this year and increase only next year, Bisignani said.
Globally, airlines will probably post losses totaling $5.6 billion this year, the trade group had estimated. That’s about half of last year’s estimated $11 billion deficit.
While the industry’s worst loss to date was almost $13 billion in 2001 following the September 11 terror attacks, an $80 billion revenue decline last year was “vastly bigger” than anything previously experienced, according to IATA Chief Economist Brian Pearce.
said Giovanni Bisignani, CEO of the International Air Transport Association (IATA). The airline industry globally lost $50 billion in the past 10 years, with $11 billion in 2009 alone. Revenues declined by $80 billion last year, Bisignani said.
“These numbers are really shocking,” Bisignani said. “We’ve had a terrible 10 years. It would take at least three years to recover the level of growth we have lost.” Airlines worldwide suffered the worst drop in passenger demand since World War II last year, IATA said on January 27. The global travel slump has pushed carriers including Singapore Airlines and British Airways into losses and forced Japan Airlines to file for bankruptcy.
Traffic dropped 3.5% last year, with declines exceeding 5% in Europe, North America and the Asia-Pacific region, said IATA, which represents 230 carriers.
The economic slump and credit crisis have cost carriers 2 ½ years of growth in passenger markets and 3 ½ years in freight, so that 2010 will be ‘another spartan year’ of cost controls and capacity caps, Bisignani had said earlier.
British Airways expects a ‘bigger loss’ in the 12 months ending March 31 than it had in fiscal 2009, chairman Martin Broughton said on January 25. Singapore Air, the world’s second-largest carrier by market value, may have its first annual loss as a publicly-traded company, the carrier said in July. Japan Air this month became Asia’s first major flag carrier to seek bankruptcy protection after four government bailouts failed to revive it. More airlines will go bankrupt, Bisignani said today. About 34 carriers have gone out of business since 2008, according to IATA.
Passenger yield, or the average price a traveller pays to fly one kilometre, will remain “flat” this year and increase only next year, Bisignani said.
Globally, airlines will probably post losses totaling $5.6 billion this year, the trade group had estimated. That’s about half of last year’s estimated $11 billion deficit.
While the industry’s worst loss to date was almost $13 billion in 2001 following the September 11 terror attacks, an $80 billion revenue decline last year was “vastly bigger” than anything previously experienced, according to IATA Chief Economist Brian Pearce.
Unite cabin crew members at British Airways are currently being balloted for a second time in a long running dispute over their jobs and working conditions.
During this dispute, the cabin crew and their case have been seriously misrepresented, which is why Unite has produced a short film to put the voice of staff across.
This film seeks to present the real issues behind this dispute – the low wages of many, the stress of working under imposition and the distress caused to a dedicated workforce when they are hindered in providing a professional service.
Contrary to the picture painted in parts of the media, BA cabin crew are not militant, over-paid or underworked, as this film shows. They voted overwhelmingly for industrial action in December because they care about the future of the airline. And they are prepared to make sacrifices. Nearly a year ago, in April 2009, Unite offered the company a way to save £100million through changes and a two-year pay freeze. Instead of working with their own employees to find a way forward, BA imposed changes to the crew’s contracts of employment.
A management that governs by imposition is not a management that will prosper. And for our members across the UK, a very dangerous precedent is being set if BA can get away with imposing changes to the terms and conditions of its cabin crew.
BA is our national flag carrier. We expect the best from it as an employer just as it must provide the best service to its passengers. As we continue to press BA to make every effort to resolve this dispute, we urge you to take a few moments to listen to our members speak, and discover for yourself the truth behind their concerns.
Derek Simpson
Tony Woodley
During this dispute, the cabin crew and their case have been seriously misrepresented, which is why Unite has produced a short film to put the voice of staff across.
This film seeks to present the real issues behind this dispute – the low wages of many, the stress of working under imposition and the distress caused to a dedicated workforce when they are hindered in providing a professional service.
Contrary to the picture painted in parts of the media, BA cabin crew are not militant, over-paid or underworked, as this film shows. They voted overwhelmingly for industrial action in December because they care about the future of the airline. And they are prepared to make sacrifices. Nearly a year ago, in April 2009, Unite offered the company a way to save £100million through changes and a two-year pay freeze. Instead of working with their own employees to find a way forward, BA imposed changes to the crew’s contracts of employment.
A management that governs by imposition is not a management that will prosper. And for our members across the UK, a very dangerous precedent is being set if BA can get away with imposing changes to the terms and conditions of its cabin crew.
BA is our national flag carrier. We expect the best from it as an employer just as it must provide the best service to its passengers. As we continue to press BA to make every effort to resolve this dispute, we urge you to take a few moments to listen to our members speak, and discover for yourself the truth behind their concerns.
Derek Simpson
Tony Woodley
Notice how the 150 million, then 175 million, is now 100 million? Notice how the pay CUT has now become a pay FREEZE?
This union is absolutely full of
I hope BA goes for their throat.
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I hope BA goes for their throat.
You can bet after reading the first half of post 3793, they'll still be saying 'don't worry BA has plenty of money!'
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Getting Rid of BASSA
There is a lot of talk about WW's plan to get rid of BASSA and how this could be done. I don't even think they need to worry about that too much. When they break the strike (and I believe they have a solid plan in place to do so), CC will soon turn against BASSA and blame them for loosing thier T&C's and possibly even their jobs!! BASSA will be so weakened they'll have less power than 12W hairdryer!! Job done. Its called giving them enough rope.
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It's time to wake up, I did some time ago....
I resigned from BASSA several years ago having seen the light then and joined Amicus. AMICUS was a Union then that refreshingly, had it's own views seeking to work with BA not against it.
In the summer of 2009, AMICUS was still independent in it's way of thinking from BASSA, sadly AMICUS has now lost the intelligence it had thus following the BASSA rhetoric. It's still my belief that some of the AMCUS reps don't all quite agree with BASSA however they are outnumbered and majority wins in this case.
I have been with BA well over a quarter of a century and having been through two strikes in 1984 and 1997 plus the near strike in 2007, have seen little change in the way BASSA conduct themselves.
As has been mentioned several times in this thread, BA's changes to us are minimal and compared to other employees inside and outside BA, we are extremely fortunate with what little we've had to give up when many industries are going bust.
In fact, at the moment, I'll go so far to say that we've got off lightly, but we won't if BASSA continues the way it's going.
The BASSA strike supporters keep harping on about BA not wanting to talk, why on earth didn't BASSA approach BA and ask to trial the crew complements back in the summer?
They could have done that for three months and it could have been a point for negotiation. We all knew that if BASSA didn't agree to the changes, new crewing levels would be imposed, everyone knew that. BASSA had time on their side but chose to ignore it and they can only blame themselves for the sorry mess we're in, not BA.
I've paid pension contributions for 26 years and I too, have a lot too lose, not just my Flight Deck colleagues as BASSA keep saying. The mind boggles that the senior reps in BASSA have exactly the same to lose yet for the life of me I can't quite fathom why they are prepared to go on a suicide mission taking the rest of the innocent crew community with them.
I will come to work in the event of a strike and will not support any industrial action against BA.
I will not let BASSA destroy the job I love taking everything away from me. I will do everything I can to work any day and every day that BA require of me to get our customers from A to B and give my full support to those who have volunteered to work with me. To those who have volunteered to fly as cabin crew, it takes guts to do what you are doing and likewise, my cabin crew colleagues who will work with me. I take my hat of to all of you.
So come on everyone, please Vote NO to strike action, save your jobs and save BA. I will simply not allow BASSA to destroy BA.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my view and not those of BA.
In the summer of 2009, AMICUS was still independent in it's way of thinking from BASSA, sadly AMICUS has now lost the intelligence it had thus following the BASSA rhetoric. It's still my belief that some of the AMCUS reps don't all quite agree with BASSA however they are outnumbered and majority wins in this case.
I have been with BA well over a quarter of a century and having been through two strikes in 1984 and 1997 plus the near strike in 2007, have seen little change in the way BASSA conduct themselves.
As has been mentioned several times in this thread, BA's changes to us are minimal and compared to other employees inside and outside BA, we are extremely fortunate with what little we've had to give up when many industries are going bust.
In fact, at the moment, I'll go so far to say that we've got off lightly, but we won't if BASSA continues the way it's going.
The BASSA strike supporters keep harping on about BA not wanting to talk, why on earth didn't BASSA approach BA and ask to trial the crew complements back in the summer?
They could have done that for three months and it could have been a point for negotiation. We all knew that if BASSA didn't agree to the changes, new crewing levels would be imposed, everyone knew that. BASSA had time on their side but chose to ignore it and they can only blame themselves for the sorry mess we're in, not BA.
I've paid pension contributions for 26 years and I too, have a lot too lose, not just my Flight Deck colleagues as BASSA keep saying. The mind boggles that the senior reps in BASSA have exactly the same to lose yet for the life of me I can't quite fathom why they are prepared to go on a suicide mission taking the rest of the innocent crew community with them.
I will come to work in the event of a strike and will not support any industrial action against BA.
I will not let BASSA destroy the job I love taking everything away from me. I will do everything I can to work any day and every day that BA require of me to get our customers from A to B and give my full support to those who have volunteered to work with me. To those who have volunteered to fly as cabin crew, it takes guts to do what you are doing and likewise, my cabin crew colleagues who will work with me. I take my hat of to all of you.
So come on everyone, please Vote NO to strike action, save your jobs and save BA. I will simply not allow BASSA to destroy BA.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my view and not those of BA.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 1st Feb 2010 at 08:27.
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Cheryl Cole
Why do BASSA feel the need to have a song as their 'theme tune' for the next planned strikle action?
Why do some BASSA members (WWW) think this is good?
It's no wonder business facts cannot seem to be grasped by these people - they are obviously very immature. Using a pop song as a theme tune is not going to endear them to the public, and it certainly isn't going to make them seem professional... in fact it will do quite the opposite.
As a member of the travelling public this just makes me feel that BASSA are treating the whole thing as a game, with their members and BA as the pawns.
Why do some BASSA members (WWW) think this is good?
It's no wonder business facts cannot seem to be grasped by these people - they are obviously very immature. Using a pop song as a theme tune is not going to endear them to the public, and it certainly isn't going to make them seem professional... in fact it will do quite the opposite.
As a member of the travelling public this just makes me feel that BASSA are treating the whole thing as a game, with their members and BA as the pawns.
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Theme Tunes
If BASSA have selected a Cheryl Cole song as a theme tune for their campaign (as reported here), perhaps BA should choose one as well?
I think that Willie Walsh would go for "I Did It My Way", or perhaps "I'm Going To Wash That (Wo)man Right Out of My Hair".
I think that Willie Walsh would go for "I Did It My Way", or perhaps "I'm Going To Wash That (Wo)man Right Out of My Hair".
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I didnt take Watersidewonkers post as being serious, I thought that was just him being, well, him!
I think the matter is a tad too serious for eather side to be singing pop songs at each other.
I think the matter is a tad too serious for eather side to be singing pop songs at each other.