British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Cabin Crew numbers
I think a few facts and figures might help this debate.
No of members in BASSA 10524 (BASSA Website yesterday)
No of members in CC89/Amicus (? - couldn't find any numbers of the Amicus website)
No of BA Cabin Crew 13500 (http://bapress.custhelp.com , mid-Dec, I resume after the departure of those taking Voluntary Serverence)
Given those numbers BASSA represents 78% of Cabin Crew.
BA Press Release
"More than a third of the airline's total workforce are cabin crew: about 13,500 people. "
"There are about 11,500 crew based at Heathrow. Roughly 9,000 of these operate long haul flights and the remainder short haul. "
"At Gatwick there are about 1,300 crew who operate both long and short haul flights. "
"About 700 crew are employed overseas at bases such as Hong Kong and Singapore. More than 1,500 UK-employed cabin crew (about one in nine) have their main home abroad. More than 800 crew live in France or Spain. Some live in Australia, the USA or South Africa. "
So the Commuter percentage may not be as high as some have thought on this thread.
I work for BA, but not in Crew. My thoughts, not my employers.
No of members in BASSA 10524 (BASSA Website yesterday)
No of members in CC89/Amicus (? - couldn't find any numbers of the Amicus website)
No of BA Cabin Crew 13500 (http://bapress.custhelp.com , mid-Dec, I resume after the departure of those taking Voluntary Serverence)
Given those numbers BASSA represents 78% of Cabin Crew.
BA Press Release
"More than a third of the airline's total workforce are cabin crew: about 13,500 people. "
"There are about 11,500 crew based at Heathrow. Roughly 9,000 of these operate long haul flights and the remainder short haul. "
"At Gatwick there are about 1,300 crew who operate both long and short haul flights. "
"About 700 crew are employed overseas at bases such as Hong Kong and Singapore. More than 1,500 UK-employed cabin crew (about one in nine) have their main home abroad. More than 800 crew live in France or Spain. Some live in Australia, the USA or South Africa. "
So the Commuter percentage may not be as high as some have thought on this thread.
I work for BA, but not in Crew. My thoughts, not my employers.
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Voting
Be careful with the suggestions on how to vote and then leave a union. BA won an injunction on a similar (reversed) premise. I would hate to see more good money, on all sides, head to the lawyers when it's desperately needed by the participants.
I work for BA, but not in Crew. My thoughts, not my employers, nor my unions.
I work for BA, but not in Crew. My thoughts, not my employers, nor my unions.
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Might I suggest that you all send any sensible savings suggestions to PCCC (or even Unite/BASSA/CC89 if you prefer). There are some examples already on this thread. (e.g. certain combinations of flight duties like NCL/NCE etc).
- aim for win:win (benefit to Crew and BA)
- use your intimate knowledge of your own procedures to improve them
- reporting
- pre- & post flight briefing
- rosters
- service
- use your experience both inside and outside of BA.
- Think about what worked well and where there's too much complexity.
I work for BA, but not in Crew. My thoughts, not my employers.
- aim for win:win (benefit to Crew and BA)
- use your intimate knowledge of your own procedures to improve them
- reporting
- pre- & post flight briefing
- rosters
- service
- use your experience both inside and outside of BA.
- Think about what worked well and where there's too much complexity.
I work for BA, but not in Crew. My thoughts, not my employers.
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You all play this game the way you choose. You are all, I guess, sentient adults.
Do you want to play political wars with BA? And rely on BASSA and Unite to look after you? Good luck. I would guess that BA has all the bases covered already. You are going to be the loser.
Or ....
Do you want to try to keep the Company afloat, and save tens of thousands of jobs, including your own? By making just one small concession about CC manning? Good luck to you too. You are realists.
People of BA, this is not a game. It's about the jobs, and livelihoods, of tens of thousands of individuals and families. It really is time to take a "sensible pill" and think about what's going on here. Forget the rhetoric, forget the trivial debates about T&C [OK, I know some of you enjoy that, and that's what Unions are for
], this is the BIG ONE.
The bottom line YOU have to think about is whether anyone [and I'm talking about ALL the BA employees, and the supporting outfits] is going to have a job after all this.
I will happily admit to having a political perspective that differs from BASSA - it's a free country, apparently. I will also admit that there are some arguments [when not shouted] from the 'other side' that make some sense. However, BA is in the financial poo, and if something isn't done to offer savings from the CC side of the operation ... you're all going to be unemployed.
Posturing is great fun, until it comes to 'crunch time'.
First crunch is the BASSA Ballott.
Next crunch is in the High Court shortly.
And the other crunch is the fact that customers are flying ABBA already.
Please, people ... get real.
Do you want to play political wars with BA? And rely on BASSA and Unite to look after you? Good luck. I would guess that BA has all the bases covered already. You are going to be the loser.
Or ....
Do you want to try to keep the Company afloat, and save tens of thousands of jobs, including your own? By making just one small concession about CC manning? Good luck to you too. You are realists.
People of BA, this is not a game. It's about the jobs, and livelihoods, of tens of thousands of individuals and families. It really is time to take a "sensible pill" and think about what's going on here. Forget the rhetoric, forget the trivial debates about T&C [OK, I know some of you enjoy that, and that's what Unions are for
], this is the BIG ONE.The bottom line YOU have to think about is whether anyone [and I'm talking about ALL the BA employees, and the supporting outfits] is going to have a job after all this.
I will happily admit to having a political perspective that differs from BASSA - it's a free country, apparently. I will also admit that there are some arguments [when not shouted] from the 'other side' that make some sense. However, BA is in the financial poo, and if something isn't done to offer savings from the CC side of the operation ... you're all going to be unemployed.
Posturing is great fun, until it comes to 'crunch time'.
First crunch is the BASSA Ballott.
Next crunch is in the High Court shortly.
And the other crunch is the fact that customers are flying ABBA already.
Please, people ... get real.
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Asked a CSD yesterday what his feeling were on the ongoing situation with BASSA and BA hoping for an insight into his perspective. I've flown with the guy before and seeing as he is extremely down to earth and a good laugh expected a sensible level headed response.
I was actually very suprised by how passionate and emotional his response was. Its the first time ive seen the raw anger and emotion first hand and as flight crew it really made me take a step back and it really makes me wonder how on earth this can be resolved.
I am very anti strike and dont think this approach will achieve anything but it really does seem the ''lies/ miss-truths'' BASSA is feeding the crew is really working. I've now seen first hand several cases of outright lies from BASSA:
Still claiming how much their origional proposals will achieve when PCW says its about half the figure.
Claiming BALPA had a link for pilot volunteers on its website and that it was actively encouraging volunteers.
Claiming a fixed allowance would mean a pay cut for everyone ( well why not negotiate a better rate?)
Still claiming pilots took a minimal paycut to be repayed with shares( no mention ever of the £2 per flying hour cut and productivity changes)
Allowing claims of Judge cox and the court case being corrupt to remain unanswered on BASSA forums, allowing claims she was flying BA over that period to fester on forum pages.
Allowing claims that strikers cannot be sacked to remain on forum pages.
Comparing Openskies to the current threat (totally different scenarios)
The list goes on. When a member trusts its union to be acting in his/her best interests how can we expect them to know any better and where would we expect them to get the facts from.
Alot of crew on the BASSA forum believe everything they hear from BASSA and dont trust a single word BA says. If a company wants to take money from you maybe you wouldnt trust them either.
He totally believed that this was his fight for survival, that if he did nothing he would be taking a 50% pay cut and this wouldnt provide for him and his family. That he is being bullied by the company etc. He believed it was a no win situation but that a strike is his only option. How can you change the perspective of these people? the same people that believe they are acting in self preservation or ultimately mutual destruction against a threat that has in my opinion been exaggerated and blown out of all proportions by an over zelous union.
How on earth can we get these emotional, passionate and upset crew hell bent on strike to step back from the brink. I dont think we can. They are being pushed from both sides. BASSA and BA
I was actually very suprised by how passionate and emotional his response was. Its the first time ive seen the raw anger and emotion first hand and as flight crew it really made me take a step back and it really makes me wonder how on earth this can be resolved.
I am very anti strike and dont think this approach will achieve anything but it really does seem the ''lies/ miss-truths'' BASSA is feeding the crew is really working. I've now seen first hand several cases of outright lies from BASSA:
Still claiming how much their origional proposals will achieve when PCW says its about half the figure.
Claiming BALPA had a link for pilot volunteers on its website and that it was actively encouraging volunteers.
Claiming a fixed allowance would mean a pay cut for everyone ( well why not negotiate a better rate?)
Still claiming pilots took a minimal paycut to be repayed with shares( no mention ever of the £2 per flying hour cut and productivity changes)
Allowing claims of Judge cox and the court case being corrupt to remain unanswered on BASSA forums, allowing claims she was flying BA over that period to fester on forum pages.
Allowing claims that strikers cannot be sacked to remain on forum pages.
Comparing Openskies to the current threat (totally different scenarios)
The list goes on. When a member trusts its union to be acting in his/her best interests how can we expect them to know any better and where would we expect them to get the facts from.
Alot of crew on the BASSA forum believe everything they hear from BASSA and dont trust a single word BA says. If a company wants to take money from you maybe you wouldnt trust them either.
He totally believed that this was his fight for survival, that if he did nothing he would be taking a 50% pay cut and this wouldnt provide for him and his family. That he is being bullied by the company etc. He believed it was a no win situation but that a strike is his only option. How can you change the perspective of these people? the same people that believe they are acting in self preservation or ultimately mutual destruction against a threat that has in my opinion been exaggerated and blown out of all proportions by an over zelous union.
How on earth can we get these emotional, passionate and upset crew hell bent on strike to step back from the brink. I dont think we can. They are being pushed from both sides. BASSA and BA
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Weather Map
MAN/GLA crew were mainline so they kept their seniority and rank.
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cloud9ne ... that's really sad. And for what? Can everyone remember what this is apparently about? LHR drop one CC, and the CSD does a bit of helping out. That's it.
The rest, IMO, is simply BASSA pot-stirring.
Am I wrong?
GBBA unless some people really start taking those 'sensible pills'
[GBBA = Good Bye British Airways]
The rest, IMO, is simply BASSA pot-stirring.
Am I wrong?
GBBA unless some people really start taking those 'sensible pills'
[GBBA = Good Bye British Airways]
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Two-Tone-Blue totally agree. If only there was a group or an individual within the CC comunity who could command the respect of everyone and say ''hang on folks, where did this all start, what was it that we were actually asked to give up'' and start from there.
I know people will say its the imposition that they are striking about but it still goes back to the beginning. If BASSA was willing to compromise on day one and by the BA deadline months and months ago then imposition WOULDN'T have happened.
The problem is these BASSA diehards will say that at no point has BA ''negotiated'' and it wanted to impose all along. But from the lies ive seen eminating from the BASSA community this isnt the version of events I will be believing and I still think a CC compormise is the only option. Its not too late sadly with feelings and emotions as high as they are thanks to union spin no I think it may be too late.
I know people will say its the imposition that they are striking about but it still goes back to the beginning. If BASSA was willing to compromise on day one and by the BA deadline months and months ago then imposition WOULDN'T have happened.
The problem is these BASSA diehards will say that at no point has BA ''negotiated'' and it wanted to impose all along. But from the lies ive seen eminating from the BASSA community this isnt the version of events I will be believing and I still think a CC compormise is the only option. Its not too late sadly with feelings and emotions as high as they are thanks to union spin no I think it may be too late.
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I am very anti strike and dont think this approach will achieve anything but it really does seem the ''lies/ miss-truths'' BASSA is feeding the crew is really working. I've now seen first hand several cases of outright lies from BASSA:
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Apologies in advance for the thread "hijack"..
In the event of any strike, any ideas what flights are likely to be cancelled? I assume the domestic/short haul will be worst hit, but what sort of long haul routes will be affected....those with low loads on any given day or some other form of prioritisation? (I am booked to go to LAS mid March, hence the question).
Cheers.
In the event of any strike, any ideas what flights are likely to be cancelled? I assume the domestic/short haul will be worst hit, but what sort of long haul routes will be affected....those with low loads on any given day or some other form of prioritisation? (I am booked to go to LAS mid March, hence the question).
Cheers.
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@ cloudn9ne ... thanks. That's the reason I keep twittering on here [when I'm not banned for talking too much on a CC Forum because I'm just SLF].
fact ... BA is in the financial poo. No argument, I assume?
fact ... something has to be done to improve that, otherwise everyone is out of a job? And most people in BA have conceded that point?
fact ... people in BA are very jealous of their T&C, and all the benefits that have been acquired over time. Lucky, luck luck luck ...
fact ... No problem - if still affordable. BUT IT ISN'T.
I can't keep banging my head on this wall, I'm just a paying J-class pax that keeps the company afloat with MY money. Guess what - NOW that I know where my money is going, please excuse me if occasionally I sound a bit pi55ed off occasionally.
Once again, good luck, folks.
fact ... BA is in the financial poo. No argument, I assume?
fact ... something has to be done to improve that, otherwise everyone is out of a job? And most people in BA have conceded that point?
fact ... people in BA are very jealous of their T&C, and all the benefits that have been acquired over time. Lucky, luck luck luck ...
fact ... No problem - if still affordable. BUT IT ISN'T.
I can't keep banging my head on this wall, I'm just a paying J-class pax that keeps the company afloat with MY money. Guess what - NOW that I know where my money is going, please excuse me if occasionally I sound a bit pi55ed off occasionally.
Once again, good luck, folks.
Sweety
Project 'SOLAR' (not SOLO) is the normal two yearly review of the Gatwick Business plan. BALPA are well aware of it and have a voice on the panel. I suspect BASSA refused to have anything to do with it and are just using it as a scare tactic, hence the hushed whispers you've heard about it.
Funnily enough, their current thinking will actually increase the amount of flying out of Gatwick, although nothing is firm yet.
Another example of BASSA mistruths and scaremongering.
LD
Project 'SOLAR' (not SOLO) is the normal two yearly review of the Gatwick Business plan. BALPA are well aware of it and have a voice on the panel. I suspect BASSA refused to have anything to do with it and are just using it as a scare tactic, hence the hushed whispers you've heard about it.
Funnily enough, their current thinking will actually increase the amount of flying out of Gatwick, although nothing is firm yet.
Another example of BASSA mistruths and scaremongering.
LD
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Sweety
Where did you hear about this? Dare I say that when BA presents a new fleet to be introduced at LHR there will be another ballot for a strike. BA only has themselves to blame.
Where did you hear about this? Dare I say that when BA presents a new fleet to be introduced at LHR there will be another ballot for a strike. BA only has themselves to blame.
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@ Tony SLF ...
Please remember that a lot of the benefits are historic. What is happening is a shift to the 21st C.
And when it's over? Either no BA at all, or a better service from the new CC ... again I refer to the LH LHR cc, not to the others.
We pax/SLF/customers/cash cows WILL have our day .... market forces will guarantee it.
Any chance of a win for us as well ???
Of course not. Trough away. It will soon be over
Of course not. Trough away. It will soon be over
And when it's over? Either no BA at all, or a better service from the new CC ... again I refer to the LH LHR cc, not to the others.
We pax/SLF/customers/cash cows WILL have our day .... market forces will guarantee it.
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mr777
If I were you, I wouldn't be worrying.
Firstly, there is the court date on 1st February over whether or not the 'imposition' was a breach of contract. I personally suspect that BA will win.
Secondly, we are a long way from BASSA having a strong enough 'yes' vote to be able to conduct any meaningful strike action. The propaganda campaign to instill a sense of understanding that this is not a game and hence a sense of personal responsibility and understanding of what a 'yes' vote will mean to the individuals has only just started. The kid gloves that the company has been using to daet are only now starting to be removed - there will be more to come, hence my comment about a strong 'yes' vote being a long way off.
Thirdly, any strike call that may be made would in all likelyhood be in the first week of March, and over within a week tops, meaning any mid March booking should be secure.
Hope that helps - all imho.
If I were you, I wouldn't be worrying.
Firstly, there is the court date on 1st February over whether or not the 'imposition' was a breach of contract. I personally suspect that BA will win.
Secondly, we are a long way from BASSA having a strong enough 'yes' vote to be able to conduct any meaningful strike action. The propaganda campaign to instill a sense of understanding that this is not a game and hence a sense of personal responsibility and understanding of what a 'yes' vote will mean to the individuals has only just started. The kid gloves that the company has been using to daet are only now starting to be removed - there will be more to come, hence my comment about a strong 'yes' vote being a long way off.
Thirdly, any strike call that may be made would in all likelyhood be in the first week of March, and over within a week tops, meaning any mid March booking should be secure.
Hope that helps - all imho.
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Where did you hear about this? Dare I say that when BA presents a new fleet to be introduced at LHR there will be another ballot for a strike. BA only has themselves to blame.
Hopefully there will be no BASSA to strike IF New Fleet is introduced, only Unions that are prepared to negotiate to protect their members and influence the Terms and Conditions of new joiners through discussion and mutual give and take. All concepts alien to Ms Malone and her band of incompetent idiots.
Perhaps BASSA should take heed of the idiom 'You reap what you sow'.
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This is a simplistic question, but how many people are BASSA?
By that I mean the people who are engineering this chaos, and threatening so many people's livelihood?
I've read abut Ms Malone in LA, but who and how many are the rest of them?
By that I mean the people who are engineering this chaos, and threatening so many people's livelihood?
I've read abut Ms Malone in LA, but who and how many are the rest of them?