British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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As I read the letter if you break your contract by not turning up for a trip (and I believe that during industrial dispute the rosters will be torn up, you'll get minimum notice for whatever trip BA decides to operate and you'll be expected to show) then you are going to be permanantly losing staff travel. If you are sick you are going to have to prove that you are sick. The 7 day rule for doctors notices won't apply and if you think it does its going to take some very expensive weeks in court to decide if you are correct. If you are down route it is normal practice to work your trip home. Expect the company to askyou before hand if you are going to back BA. If you say no then BA will apply the same sanctions to you. If you say yes then expect to get minimum legal rest back in the UK then another trip out. You can't hide on this one. If you vote for a strike then realise that is exactly what you'll get and you will be declaring to BA whether or not you are in or out.
Good luck with the ballot. I hope that you realise just where BASSA reps are taking you.
Good luck with the ballot. I hope that you realise just where BASSA reps are taking you.
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A Lurker
Accept what you say but don't you think he would rather we all that argument now and returned a no vote?
That would save all the hassle of a strike for BA.
The crew would have a good old debate on that one in the galley.
All of a sudden it would ,may be, urging each other to vote no because it's not just ST and hotels at stake.
If I have interpreted the letter right it is a very clever idea.
If all crew were to lose out then they would be hassling BAssa for some negotiation.
Accept what you say but don't you think he would rather we all that argument now and returned a no vote?
That would save all the hassle of a strike for BA.
The crew would have a good old debate on that one in the galley.
All of a sudden it would ,may be, urging each other to vote no because it's not just ST and hotels at stake.
If I have interpreted the letter right it is a very clever idea.
If all crew were to lose out then they would be hassling BAssa for some negotiation.
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Hello A Lurker...
I see it differently.
I think the company has been reasonable and fair, no, it has not been a push over and no, it has not thrown money at the situation. It hasn't got any!
I think the issues have been personalised and distorted to such a degree that people are having trouble seeing the wood for the trees.
Saying that, an increasing number of people are now challenging certain responses to the situation, (many examples on this forum).
I do not think the company has an agenda to 'smash' the trade unions or 'working agreements'. It needs change but is willing to look after those people in the business. Yes we do have to make sacrifices, most departments already have, months ago.
I think this could have been a real opportunity for the unions, proactively engaging the company, ensuring their member's futures, their future and of course BA's future, without an airline there isn't a union!
Where we go from here is anyones guess, I like option A. No strike, if option B is carried out it could 'smash' the company.
Those T & C's would disappear, finished, gone forever. Picture it, people standing there scratching their heads asking 'what happend'? 'If only!'
It'll be too late then.
Let's hope that doesn't happen, we can agree again tonight on that one, can't we?
My thoughts in response to previous post, not my employers or any other party.
I think the company has been reasonable and fair, no, it has not been a push over and no, it has not thrown money at the situation. It hasn't got any!
I think the issues have been personalised and distorted to such a degree that people are having trouble seeing the wood for the trees.
Saying that, an increasing number of people are now challenging certain responses to the situation, (many examples on this forum).
I do not think the company has an agenda to 'smash' the trade unions or 'working agreements'. It needs change but is willing to look after those people in the business. Yes we do have to make sacrifices, most departments already have, months ago.
I think this could have been a real opportunity for the unions, proactively engaging the company, ensuring their member's futures, their future and of course BA's future, without an airline there isn't a union!
Where we go from here is anyones guess, I like option A. No strike, if option B is carried out it could 'smash' the company.
Those T & C's would disappear, finished, gone forever. Picture it, people standing there scratching their heads asking 'what happend'? 'If only!'
It'll be too late then.
Let's hope that doesn't happen, we can agree again tonight on that one, can't we?
My thoughts in response to previous post, not my employers or any other party.
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I hesitate to step into the fray but I may be able to add a little clarity.
I would say that the letter from Bob Francis would be interpreted by a court/tribunal as being sent to each recipient on a personal basis. It was not specifically addressed to a group or body of recipients. The word "you" throughout should be taken to mean the individual recipient, i.e. yourself.
As regards self-certification, the legal requirement for the purposes of SSP is indeed a maximum of seven days. However, when you are sick your employer pays you the difference between SSP and your normal basic salary. For this an employer can ask for medical certification in any way it chooses including sending you to see the employer's doctor. Many companies nowadays have an outright limit on the number of sick days that may be taken in a twelve month period before pay over and above SSP is lost. In cases of genuine illness it can be better to turn up and subsequently be sent home when difficult circumstances such as IA are taking place.
(For the record, I spent 35 years working in City law firms, almost all in a corporate environment with the last eight specifically in the area of pensions/employee benefits.)
I would say that the letter from Bob Francis would be interpreted by a court/tribunal as being sent to each recipient on a personal basis. It was not specifically addressed to a group or body of recipients. The word "you" throughout should be taken to mean the individual recipient, i.e. yourself.
As regards self-certification, the legal requirement for the purposes of SSP is indeed a maximum of seven days. However, when you are sick your employer pays you the difference between SSP and your normal basic salary. For this an employer can ask for medical certification in any way it chooses including sending you to see the employer's doctor. Many companies nowadays have an outright limit on the number of sick days that may be taken in a twelve month period before pay over and above SSP is lost. In cases of genuine illness it can be better to turn up and subsequently be sent home when difficult circumstances such as IA are taking place.
(For the record, I spent 35 years working in City law firms, almost all in a corporate environment with the last eight specifically in the area of pensions/employee benefits.)
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BA's push back
I read in the news that BA are considering, as a result of the threatened strike action, downgrading the Hotels used for night stops and removing travel perks.
For me this is simply wonderful news. Both the Union and the striking Cabin Crew seem to think they can have this thing "their own way". I am glad BA are upping the anti. Given the disputed work practices are already operating at Gatwick I see absolutely no justification for this strike action. Having recently sampled BA's long haul and Europe in-flight service that further re-enforces my view. The current BA service is very very ordinary. I think the cabin crew should smarten up their act instead of threatening strike action. People in glass houses................
For me this is simply wonderful news. Both the Union and the striking Cabin Crew seem to think they can have this thing "their own way". I am glad BA are upping the anti. Given the disputed work practices are already operating at Gatwick I see absolutely no justification for this strike action. Having recently sampled BA's long haul and Europe in-flight service that further re-enforces my view. The current BA service is very very ordinary. I think the cabin crew should smarten up their act instead of threatening strike action. People in glass houses................
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Also, BA get the hotels with such a discount that I am not sure they could get a better deal with a budget chain. Besides, the hotel accommodation comes out of the pilot budget - in addition, we need to be adequately rested for our duties, so only a good quality hotel will do really!
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A Lurker
just to 'flesh out' your analogy referring to this whole debacle coming down to the toss of a coin, may I just suggest that it's not a coin at all, but a star-crossed Irish Lucky Charm and whilst I think everyone knows who the proper 'tossers' are, I think we're all equally sure which side will use its 'heads' to its advantage and which side will do as it did last time and tuck its 'tails' between its legs and graciousLessly scurry away, claiming the victory as always, blaming everyone but themselves as always, victimising the pilots, alienating themselves from everyone and learning ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AS ALWAYS....so predictable
When will the lid be lifted on this oppressive and un-British regime?
just to 'flesh out' your analogy referring to this whole debacle coming down to the toss of a coin, may I just suggest that it's not a coin at all, but a star-crossed Irish Lucky Charm and whilst I think everyone knows who the proper 'tossers' are, I think we're all equally sure which side will use its 'heads' to its advantage and which side will do as it did last time and tuck its 'tails' between its legs and graciousLessly scurry away, claiming the victory as always, blaming everyone but themselves as always, victimising the pilots, alienating themselves from everyone and learning ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AS ALWAYS....so predictable
When will the lid be lifted on this oppressive and un-British regime?
Last edited by flybymerchant; 23rd Jan 2010 at 09:38.
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Also, BA get the hotels with such a discount that I am not sure they could get a better deal with a budget chain.
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I agree - I do love my InterContinentals and Marriott's darling!! We do need change etc. but I think some people need to be fair to us crew. I am a no voter and against the strike and am fed up of the militant attitude but some people would love to see the job of cabin crew eroded as we are only mere ''waiters/waitresses'. 
I know on shorthaul we sometimes do very easy days (MAN there and back anyone!) but many trips are in excess of 11hour days with a lot of rushing with delays etc and sometimes I don't even have time for a proper meal (hate the plane food!) so we do need good quality hotels. If we had to stay in airport Travelodge's everywhere we went - would the pilots also agree to that. No disrespect intended and I am a no voter and am willing to change - but that doesn't mean I want to erode my job completely!
I know on shorthaul we sometimes do very easy days (MAN there and back anyone!) but many trips are in excess of 11hour days with a lot of rushing with delays etc and sometimes I don't even have time for a proper meal (hate the plane food!) so we do need good quality hotels. If we had to stay in airport Travelodge's everywhere we went - would the pilots also agree to that. No disrespect intended and I am a no voter and am willing to change - but that doesn't mean I want to erode my job completely!
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I agree Slide
It's important that we once again gain a little respect for our job. As we all know, we do our job because we choose to, not because we are incapable of doing anything else. We are, in the whole, a professional group of people who work hard for a reasonable (yes, on the new contract it's just reasonable) salary. Add to that the Christmasses and weekends we work, the birthdays and anniversaries we miss, and the total disruption to our rosters and loss of a large amounts of allowances in the ever-more frequent events of bad weather. I too am a no voter - but I want to be proud to work for BA and expect to be well looked after working in such a great company!
It's important that we once again gain a little respect for our job. As we all know, we do our job because we choose to, not because we are incapable of doing anything else. We are, in the whole, a professional group of people who work hard for a reasonable (yes, on the new contract it's just reasonable) salary. Add to that the Christmasses and weekends we work, the birthdays and anniversaries we miss, and the total disruption to our rosters and loss of a large amounts of allowances in the ever-more frequent events of bad weather. I too am a no voter - but I want to be proud to work for BA and expect to be well looked after working in such a great company!
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(MAN there and back anyone!)
But anyway, I take your point.
Speak to any crew member that has done charter, or in fact, worked for any other airline, or in fact, I will go further, any crew member that has worked in the "real world", even a paper round, and they will tell you they are on to a good thing and they are happy with their deal. I have not heard a single whinge about the new crewing levels on SH since the first week they came in.
I find the most militant crew are the people that have only ever worked for BA, more often than not straight from school, who have no idea what it is like elsewhere. I really, honestly hope they don't spoil it for the rest of the crew who would quite happily work a bit harder to keep their excellent reward package.
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FlexSRS - shall we leave these issues to scheduling? As I'm sure you are aware, there are strong commercial reasons for having an a/c operate a first flight of the morning out of any airport, particularly weekdays.
Slidebustle and BACrewboy - I'm with you on everything you say. I think there are many more out there like us who oppose BASSA's scorch earth policy. I too have been upset by some anti-crew posts from within and outside BA on this site, but aside from the comment from Singapore this evening, I have been impressed by the healthy level headed debate tonight at a very testing time for all of us.
Slidebustle and BACrewboy - I'm with you on everything you say. I think there are many more out there like us who oppose BASSA's scorch earth policy. I too have been upset by some anti-crew posts from within and outside BA on this site, but aside from the comment from Singapore this evening, I have been impressed by the healthy level headed debate tonight at a very testing time for all of us.
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I agree Ben
We just need to stop the blind leading the blind in this company - you ask almost any crew why they are voting yes and they spurt the usual BASSA rhetoric "well if we don't do it now then the job is finished" or, even worse, they don't know why they are voting yes - simply because BASSA are telling them to!
We just need to stop the blind leading the blind in this company - you ask almost any crew why they are voting yes and they spurt the usual BASSA rhetoric "well if we don't do it now then the job is finished" or, even worse, they don't know why they are voting yes - simply because BASSA are telling them to!
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The most infruriating thing for me is the arguments from people;
''If we don't strike now this will be it, our jobs will be gone forever. BA won't negotiate and they want to attack Cabin crew. We will all be on £1000 a month and the company will change your days off when they want. We will have to leave or live in a shared flat in Hounslow if we want to stay in the job. They will impose more. This is just the start. It will be days off next. Then they will make us fly with minimum crew on all flights. Also who wants a group of 20something year olds serving them''
ETC ETC ETC! Does my head in!
The strike is about the imposition. However I fear if we strike they will be forced to impose more and more!! I too am worried about them changing your duties at a whim and also days off but it hasn't got to that stage yet. Negotiate before it is too late! Like Bill said in his latest ESS, if we strike they can't guarantee our safeguards of our current pay and allowances which, for the time being are being safeguarded!
''If we don't strike now this will be it, our jobs will be gone forever. BA won't negotiate and they want to attack Cabin crew. We will all be on £1000 a month and the company will change your days off when they want. We will have to leave or live in a shared flat in Hounslow if we want to stay in the job. They will impose more. This is just the start. It will be days off next. Then they will make us fly with minimum crew on all flights. Also who wants a group of 20something year olds serving them''
ETC ETC ETC! Does my head in!
The strike is about the imposition. However I fear if we strike they will be forced to impose more and more!! I too am worried about them changing your duties at a whim and also days off but it hasn't got to that stage yet. Negotiate before it is too late! Like Bill said in his latest ESS, if we strike they can't guarantee our safeguards of our current pay and allowances which, for the time being are being safeguarded!
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Originally Posted by BACrewboy
...the birthdays and anniversaries we miss,
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I never understand aswell how we cannot do a NCE link for domestic nighstops.
Ben Asher
shall we leave these issues to scheduling?
If BASSA listened to their members, which would possibly involve actually asking crew what they want, things like linking a NCE to a NCL might be acceptable to crew, or even desirable (ie, if I'm going to be at work that day, may as well make some cash / do it now and have an extra day off), could be used to negotiate with the company. Ie, 'hey Bill, we will do this, and it will save you £10m, how about we split it 50/50 and put £5m in to a 'long link payment' and you keep the other £5m towards our target.
Rather than look at all these endless inefficiencies as 'someone else's problem / department', your union could be actively looking at ways around them to get a mutual advantage for you and BA. There are so many painless ways to save money and protect your pay, that is why this conflict is such a waste in so many ways, and why anyone with half a brain feels totally let down by La La lady and her kitchen fitting mates. I just hope people realise in time how this could have been done.