British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Highflyer,
I think that the tone and content of the Bassa clan is more diverse than you d like to accept.
As I've stated before I do not think that MissM's attitude is anywhere near as bad as miss wonker-something.
The trick is I guess to show the sneaky side of the unions as two-tone-blue just did about the posting by travelandtrouble on the rules (sorry, guidelines) on crew fatigue.
In the long run not even an union can get away from the truth, and i believe they will loose support from the MissM's of this world, who, from a misguided sense of sticking to a chosen path still belong to a union they disagree with more often than not.
Once the camel's back is broken, there will be an opportunity for new, positive and cooperative representation of the cc towards the management
I think that the tone and content of the Bassa clan is more diverse than you d like to accept.
As I've stated before I do not think that MissM's attitude is anywhere near as bad as miss wonker-something.
The trick is I guess to show the sneaky side of the unions as two-tone-blue just did about the posting by travelandtrouble on the rules (sorry, guidelines) on crew fatigue.
In the long run not even an union can get away from the truth, and i believe they will loose support from the MissM's of this world, who, from a misguided sense of sticking to a chosen path still belong to a union they disagree with more often than not.
Once the camel's back is broken, there will be an opportunity for new, positive and cooperative representation of the cc towards the management
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All I can see is 1) Brainwashed union backers
2) Brainwashed company backers
both believing that the other is wrong.
What is needed is common sense on both sides.
No-one wants a pay cut, but maybe a guaranteed return to original pay when circumstances allow, some would accept in the short term.
It couldn´t be set on a certain profit in the year because figures can be manipulated. Maybe an independent group could oversee the criteria?
2) Brainwashed company backers
both believing that the other is wrong.
What is needed is common sense on both sides.
No-one wants a pay cut, but maybe a guaranteed return to original pay when circumstances allow, some would accept in the short term.
It couldn´t be set on a certain profit in the year because figures can be manipulated. Maybe an independent group could oversee the criteria?
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No-one wants a pay cut, but maybe a guaranteed return to original pay when circumstances allow, some would accept in the short term.
It couldn´t be set on a certain profit in the year because figures can be manipulated. Maybe an independent group could oversee the criteria?
Temporary pay cuts just put off the inevitable.
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All I can see is
1) Brainwashed union backers
2) Brainwashed company backers
both believing that the other is wrong.
1) Brainwashed union backers
2) Brainwashed company backers
both believing that the other is wrong.
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HiFlyer14
That's something I didn't know. By whom was I sent?
Make your voices heard. Start passing out leaflets at CRC. Start conversations on the aircraft. Try involving other crew. Email BF and tell him that you are willing to meet for a talk about the situation. Maybe he's got a few ideas and would need some crew who would help him.
Please remember that the BASSA faithful: Fume, Lurker, MissM etc are sent on here from the other forums simply to stir.
The real problem here is Unite. We must not allow MissM, Fume, Lurker etc divert our focus off that - we must find a way to make our voices heard. Any advice anyone?
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Hiflyer14
I think there are a lot more crew who aren't part of the BASSA faithful than you seem to find. I speak to them every day. If you create a safe environment amongst the crew you'll be amazed what they feel enabled to discuss. I appreciate that Eurofleet is a different environment to the one you work in, and I know that militancy is more a way of life on WW but I still think there are like-minded people amongst your colleagues. We are the only people who can fix our situation; by talking to each other, to our unions and to our managers. I know you resigned in despair/disgust but that means you don't have a voice; surely its better to stand your ground and stick up for what is right than to walk away. So the answer to your questions
a) talk
b) talk
c) talk
d) talk
p.s. I do love the way that we all ignore Jocksters ranting, no-one even comments on his posts anymore; same theme different words everytime!
a) talk
b) talk
c) talk
d) talk
p.s. I do love the way that we all ignore Jocksters ranting, no-one even comments on his posts anymore; same theme different words everytime!
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As a paying customer I must say, I just want all of this to stop, I've already used other airlines because of unhappiness with BA, that was nothing to do with CC, but based on the poor food on a recent flight, i am back with BA in January on a long haul J class fare. Hoping that I get back to the UK before the inevitable happens.
Just for reference, I like most of the others in my industry who have kept their jobs have had a pay freeze for the last year. I am now working more hours than I have ever worked, and I don't have a union to fight for me, and quite frankly wouldnt want one who misrepresented me in the way BASSA has.
I don't really want BA to go away, but at the moment, I think that the attitude of some people mean its going to happen. I guess I just need to spend my BA Miles (currently in excess of 550,000) before the inevitable does happen.
Just for reference, I like most of the others in my industry who have kept their jobs have had a pay freeze for the last year. I am now working more hours than I have ever worked, and I don't have a union to fight for me, and quite frankly wouldnt want one who misrepresented me in the way BASSA has.
I don't really want BA to go away, but at the moment, I think that the attitude of some people mean its going to happen. I guess I just need to spend my BA Miles (currently in excess of 550,000) before the inevitable does happen.
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Why is it that if you feel that you actually have no option but to pressure the "poor" bosses that you are automatically knocked down as a 
Socialist?
Whats so wrong with Socialists? Try asking Sir Alex Ferguson, not exactly on your cabin crew wage is he?
I´ve worked for firms before whereby the unions and management have colluded. The said union man (who got the agreement through) then resigned his post in the union and is now (a very poor) manager.
Maybe bosses could forgo wages? That should save alot, then don´t pay dividends, alot more. Then the managers would be attacked by the large institutions that hold the shares that are made by staff at the lower end of the food chain. Circular action:
Staff happy = Good moral = excellent customer services = Happy passengers = more profit = dividends, everyone is happy
Unhappy staff = poor moral = poor customer services = no customers = no profit = no dividends, bye bye airline
Very simplistic I know, but a proven formula.
Socialist?Whats so wrong with Socialists? Try asking Sir Alex Ferguson, not exactly on your cabin crew wage is he?
I´ve worked for firms before whereby the unions and management have colluded. The said union man (who got the agreement through) then resigned his post in the union and is now (a very poor) manager.
Maybe bosses could forgo wages? That should save alot, then don´t pay dividends, alot more. Then the managers would be attacked by the large institutions that hold the shares that are made by staff at the lower end of the food chain. Circular action:
Staff happy = Good moral = excellent customer services = Happy passengers = more profit = dividends, everyone is happy
Unhappy staff = poor moral = poor customer services = no customers = no profit = no dividends, bye bye airline
Very simplistic I know, but a proven formula.
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Cymmon
Nothing wrong with socialism other than that it has proved not to work, because of the weakness of the human race.
The issue here is the "them and us" philosophy of British culture. Where perhaps the 2 party system worked well and did Britain many favours in the past, it did not teach the british workers and their bosses the value of compromise, consensus, respect for one another etc.
Thatcher kicked many unions into the reality of today, but unfortunately forgot to kick the management's asses at the same time, so they took a bit longer, I agree.
To date there still are conflict oriented unions and managers in the UK but they too will slowly die as the dinosaurs did.
Just imagine, you and watersidewonker, what great things could have been achieved if the management and your unions worked together to provide the clients the best possible service for the best possible price. All the BA staff would today be gleaming!
PS Note I am not just blaming the unions, it's just Bassa seems to be the one who has least understood the realities of today.
Nothing wrong with socialism other than that it has proved not to work, because of the weakness of the human race.
The issue here is the "them and us" philosophy of British culture. Where perhaps the 2 party system worked well and did Britain many favours in the past, it did not teach the british workers and their bosses the value of compromise, consensus, respect for one another etc.
Thatcher kicked many unions into the reality of today, but unfortunately forgot to kick the management's asses at the same time, so they took a bit longer, I agree.
To date there still are conflict oriented unions and managers in the UK but they too will slowly die as the dinosaurs did.
Just imagine, you and watersidewonker, what great things could have been achieved if the management and your unions worked together to provide the clients the best possible service for the best possible price. All the BA staff would today be gleaming!
PS Note I am not just blaming the unions, it's just Bassa seems to be the one who has least understood the realities of today.
Last edited by vanHorck; 27th Dec 2009 at 20:40. Reason: typo
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Maybe bosses could forgo wages? That should save alot, then don´t pay dividends, alot more.
Willie Walsh has foregone bonuses, and a month's salary earlier this year.
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VatersideVonker (well you insist on calling Willie Villie!!) PLEASE PLEASE I urge you to read our customers (you know the people that book flights and board our aircraft - the people who if they didn't BA would not exist) comments on here, there are quite a few companies who are not booking BA until this conflict is resolved, now don't just say the ball is in Willie's court, he has stated he is willing to talk about New Fleet the union just keep on about this imposition. Something HAD to be done. Please, as a more militant member of the Union, PLEASE get them to be in touch with reality and talk, otherwise the amount of customers who lose faith in BA will be too many and we will end up like Globespan, Excel, SilverJet and many more. Please don't let your reluctance to step into 2009/2010 and your champagne socialist attitudes (the bosses are out to get us working people!) to break the airline for the rest of us cabin crew, and the many other 1000s of workers, check in staff, pilots, baggage handlers, managers (some of them are human aswell honestly ) HQ staff, trainers etc etc... and other staff who are indirectly linked, ie. workers, at the airport, Gategourmet etc etc.
I'm serious!! I enjoy my job, am accepting of changes and want to continue to enjoy my job that mean old BA employ me to do!!
) HQ staff, trainers etc etc... and other staff who are indirectly linked, ie. workers, at the airport, Gategourmet etc etc.I'm serious!! I enjoy my job, am accepting of changes and want to continue to enjoy my job that mean old BA employ me to do!!
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I work for a large International Company UK based, that USED to fly BA.
No longer.
We fly KLM and to be honest the difference in attitude and approach is totally different. One always gets the clear impression that the KLM CC are pleased to see you.
I have also noticed that the dynamics between the CC and the FDC seem to be better as well. It was very interesting and an eye opener to watch a KLM and an Air France flight land within a few minutes of one another.
The KLM team came through Immigration as a sort of happily talking "gaggle", the Air France crew came through as follows :-
Captain
FO (Three ringer)
SO (Two ringer)
Senior Purser/CSD (whatever)
CC in seniority order.
Thankfully I don't ever fly AF, by choice.
I found ultimately that the impression given by the BA CC was that we (I) was just an inconvenience they had to deal with, and that they would be happier if the plane was empty.
No longer.
We fly KLM and to be honest the difference in attitude and approach is totally different. One always gets the clear impression that the KLM CC are pleased to see you.
I have also noticed that the dynamics between the CC and the FDC seem to be better as well. It was very interesting and an eye opener to watch a KLM and an Air France flight land within a few minutes of one another.
The KLM team came through Immigration as a sort of happily talking "gaggle", the Air France crew came through as follows :-
Captain
FO (Three ringer)
SO (Two ringer)
Senior Purser/CSD (whatever)
CC in seniority order.
Thankfully I don't ever fly AF, by choice.
I found ultimately that the impression given by the BA CC was that we (I) was just an inconvenience they had to deal with, and that they would be happier if the plane was empty.
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I might have missed it but I'm quite surprised that nobody has yet used the attack on the Delta AMS-DTW flight to make a case for how important it is to keep crew complements the same. It's all over CF, despite the fact that it seems the Delta crew had little to do with the situation until it was all over.
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carnage,your observation is correct.
with terrorist attacks once again in the news,cabin crew are needed as a last line of defense in what can be life threatening situations.
reduced crew compliments do nothing to enhance inflight safety and security.
i feel a lot more vulnerable 6 miles up over the atlantic,with less pairs of eyes looking aftrer my wellbeing.
14 crew on a 747,give me 16 anyday..........now is not the time to compromise safety of passengers and crew.
with terrorist attacks once again in the news,cabin crew are needed as a last line of defense in what can be life threatening situations.
reduced crew compliments do nothing to enhance inflight safety and security.
i feel a lot more vulnerable 6 miles up over the atlantic,with less pairs of eyes looking aftrer my wellbeing.
14 crew on a 747,give me 16 anyday..........now is not the time to compromise safety of passengers and crew.
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Rules, Miss M (and others quoting FCL), are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.
Explain (if you can legibly do so), Watersidewonker; the difference between power and responsibility.
The problem, CC, is that a majority do not like to think of themselves as hewers of wood and drawers of water or, to put it another way, stewards and stewardesses. One of you, a while back on this entertaining thread, used the term “my pilots”, which summed it up for me, emanating from an otherwise articulate and seemingly reasonable CC. God knows what the other 92% think.
Explain (if you can legibly do so), Watersidewonker; the difference between power and responsibility.
The problem, CC, is that a majority do not like to think of themselves as hewers of wood and drawers of water or, to put it another way, stewards and stewardesses. One of you, a while back on this entertaining thread, used the term “my pilots”, which summed it up for me, emanating from an otherwise articulate and seemingly reasonable CC. God knows what the other 92% think.
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It may be only me, but if I see someone trying to initiate an explosion on board my flight, I'm not going to press the call button and wait for CC to sort it out.
I'd be using whatever excessive force I deemed necessary to cripple the person responsible.
Mind you would willie bashers like Watersidewonker do anything about it anyway? My guess is most of the BASSA "we will fight to the end" chest beaters would probably hide quivering in the galley.
I do believe the now iconic phrase "Let's Roll" came from the passengers of United 93.
So please for the love of God let's not have the BASSA willie bashers trying to convince us of the need for them on board to protect us from terrorists. I think it would make me vomit.
I'd be using whatever excessive force I deemed necessary to cripple the person responsible.
Mind you would willie bashers like Watersidewonker do anything about it anyway? My guess is most of the BASSA "we will fight to the end" chest beaters would probably hide quivering in the galley.
I do believe the now iconic phrase "Let's Roll" came from the passengers of United 93.
So please for the love of God let's not have the BASSA willie bashers trying to convince us of the need for them on board to protect us from terrorists. I think it would make me vomit.
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There is a statement in red at the bottom of each pprune web page:
"As these are........certain reactions".
To post one does not have to prove that one is who one wants to appear.
Perhaps this statement should be considered when reading the posts of some of the more outlandish posters who claim to be cabin crew, persons who do many £'s worth of business with BA etc..
Some posters may even work for another company and may benefit from BA's misfortune.
I certainly have my doubts about some.
"As these are........certain reactions".
To post one does not have to prove that one is who one wants to appear.
Perhaps this statement should be considered when reading the posts of some of the more outlandish posters who claim to be cabin crew, persons who do many £'s worth of business with BA etc..
Some posters may even work for another company and may benefit from BA's misfortune.
I certainly have my doubts about some.
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but we are ready for a fight nothing else to lose.
Industrial trouble makers will be the last employed and BASSA will cease to exist - certainly the new airline will refuse to acknowledge the union and it will be a spent force.
WWW you quote champagne socialism very well but have learn't nothing from the era of great union power in the 70s. Where are the NUM now? Where are the great state owned companies that gave their unions power base? All gone, all failed to be competitive, all failed the test of time.
If a company does not serve it's customers well it ceases to exist. There will be no bail out of BA by the government, it is very naive to think it will. The economy is still lurching, why would the tax payer fork out millions to support one relatively minor employer in the London area? It makes no economic sense, we do not, unlike the banks provide a vital service to the economy allowing others to conduct business.
Think on very carefully about this nonsense and get back to the table with BA, without the attitude and talk. This stupid mantra of the company will not negotiate is just that - BA told you what savings they needed - you could have come up with any solution you liked to sort that. Instead, on an undemocratic "show of hands" BASSA refused to negotiate.
One thing is for sure, as the company starts to die the death throws will be painful. The radical surgery required to save the company will start and this small non contractual imposition will be nothing to pain that all of us will suffer - but the axe will fall on the CC community fastest, hardest and deepest.
If something doesn't change 2010 will be the year BA failed and people like WWW will look back on in their dotage as the year their cosy little world fell apart.
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I am a customer, who relies on getting to my destination. I and many others need reliability to carry out our job, have always tried to fly BA. However this appears to be misplaced loyalty as there appears to be a majority of CC that are prepared to use my custom as a lever to sort out their problems. What this has done for the immediate future has driven me to Delta and AA as I cannot take the risk that you could dump on me. I am also looking at using another carrier for summer vacation with this hanging over the airline. Whilst you may or may not have a case, if you actually go through with action that cancels flights, you will be committing commercial suicide. I have other options to go to, not so sure about the BA staff that could end up without a job.
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I seems that not all threats of strike action are unproductive;
MADRID, Nov 20 (Reuters) - Unions representing Spanish airline Iberia's (IBLA.MC) cabin crew will call off strikes planned for November and December after reaching a wage agreement with management, a union spokesman said on Friday.
Industrials
"Once the (wage) agreement has been signed the strike will be officially called off," said a spokesman from Sitcpla, one of the two unions which called for strike action.
The unions already carried out strikes in October and November and another 8 days of stoppages were planned between the end of November and the middle of December.
But, on Thursday, Iberia said it had agreed an average 4 percent salary rise in 2009 for its nearly 4,000 cabin crew.
At 1118 GMT, Iberia shares were up 0.5 percent to 2.03 euros, outperforming the blue-chip IBEX-35 index .IBEX which was flat.
On Nov. 12, Iberia and British Airways (BAY.L) said they had reached a preliminary merger agreement. [ID:nMDT008789] (Reporting by Robert Hetz; Writing by Judy MacInnes; Editing by Dan Lalor) .
MADRID, Nov 20 (Reuters) - Unions representing Spanish airline Iberia's (IBLA.MC) cabin crew will call off strikes planned for November and December after reaching a wage agreement with management, a union spokesman said on Friday.
Industrials
"Once the (wage) agreement has been signed the strike will be officially called off," said a spokesman from Sitcpla, one of the two unions which called for strike action.
The unions already carried out strikes in October and November and another 8 days of stoppages were planned between the end of November and the middle of December.
But, on Thursday, Iberia said it had agreed an average 4 percent salary rise in 2009 for its nearly 4,000 cabin crew.
At 1118 GMT, Iberia shares were up 0.5 percent to 2.03 euros, outperforming the blue-chip IBEX-35 index .IBEX which was flat.
On Nov. 12, Iberia and British Airways (BAY.L) said they had reached a preliminary merger agreement. [ID:nMDT008789] (Reporting by Robert Hetz; Writing by Judy MacInnes; Editing by Dan Lalor) .