Interesting CHIRP Question!!
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Interesting CHIRP Question!!
Has anyone recently read the latest CHIRP Newsletter (issue 33)?
Theres a link to the newsletter below and also a picture that was published within the newsletter.
My jaw was on the floor reading it and wondered what other Cabin Crew think about this situation?
Most of us I would have thought would be savvy enough to know that any sort of ice/snow/slush on the wings is a no go, esp as, we as crew have a slightly bizzare love of Air Crash Investigation shows!!
I know training can vary airline to airline, but are crews educated on wing contamination?
I have been on two flights where we have had to notify the F/D that there was either ice build up or that the De-Icing team had failed to de-ice one whole side of the a/c. On both occasions the F/D where fairly flippant believing that the De-Icing teams had done their job (with out them visually checking!!) or there was little cause for concern. Thankfully we have a reasonably open culture at our airline and on the Cabin Crews instance made the F/D came back into the cabin to visually check the wings.....on both times the sheepish looking FO apologised and got the De-Icing teams back.
What would you do as crew if you had seen the same in the picture below?
http://www.chirp.co.uk/downloads/CCFB/CCFB33.pdf
Theres a link to the newsletter below and also a picture that was published within the newsletter.
My jaw was on the floor reading it and wondered what other Cabin Crew think about this situation?
Most of us I would have thought would be savvy enough to know that any sort of ice/snow/slush on the wings is a no go, esp as, we as crew have a slightly bizzare love of Air Crash Investigation shows!!
I know training can vary airline to airline, but are crews educated on wing contamination?
I have been on two flights where we have had to notify the F/D that there was either ice build up or that the De-Icing team had failed to de-ice one whole side of the a/c. On both occasions the F/D where fairly flippant believing that the De-Icing teams had done their job (with out them visually checking!!) or there was little cause for concern. Thankfully we have a reasonably open culture at our airline and on the Cabin Crews instance made the F/D came back into the cabin to visually check the wings.....on both times the sheepish looking FO apologised and got the De-Icing teams back.
What would you do as crew if you had seen the same in the picture below?
http://www.chirp.co.uk/downloads/CCFB/CCFB33.pdf
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I would have gone straight to the flight deck to inform the Captain. If he/she didn't take it seriously (highly unlikely in my co), I would just refuse to call in the "cabin secure". I don't mean this in a rude way, but it would be the only way if the Flight Crew refused to come and have a look.
I read the CHIRP report as well, and I found it very unprofessional of the CC in question.
Gg
I read the CHIRP report as well, and I found it very unprofessional of the CC in question.
Gg
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This icing is (mainly) inside the black overwing non environmental icing demarkation in which Boeing permit overwing ice on takeoff due to cold soaked fuel in the fuel tanks just below the skin of the wing.
It may have accumulated after taxi commenced and possibly in the dark and within holdover time limits.
It also looks like they got airborne without any major incident!
On they other hand, they may be cowboys....who knows?
It may have accumulated after taxi commenced and possibly in the dark and within holdover time limits.
It also looks like they got airborne without any major incident!
On they other hand, they may be cowboys....who knows?
This icing is (mainly) inside the black overwing non environmental icing demarkation in which Boeing permit overwing ice on takeoff due to cold soaked fuel in the fuel tanks just below the skin of the wing.
Boeing may permit it but I don't think the FAA or CAA do.
NTSB Report
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No, no, no!!
Alycidon - you confuse clear cold-soaked fuel frost with snow that has not been cleared!
http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...Fuel_Frost.pdf
Snow buildup is never permissible on the flying surfaces. Look at the photos in the Boeing presentation.
Alycidon - you confuse clear cold-soaked fuel frost with snow that has not been cleared!
http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...Fuel_Frost.pdf
Snow buildup is never permissible on the flying surfaces. Look at the photos in the Boeing presentation.
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As a Captain I would be most disapointed if the cabin crew did not tell me if they had any doubts about the state of the aircraft de-icing, after all they have a better view if the wings than I do!
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You guys should always tell us. ANY crew that don't listen or just dismiss you are ars***es. If you told me, id go look for sure. No reason not to.
Don't be put off by F/D rushing you.
Don't be put off by F/D rushing you.
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Lessons need to be re-learnt
How long before another accident like this?
This Day in History 1982: Plane crashes into Potomac
1982 - Air Florida - Potomac River
This Day in History 1982: Plane crashes into Potomac
1982 - Air Florida - Potomac River
Alycidon
It is a little while since I opened a Boeing manual.
When I last did - NO snow or ice was permitted on the UPPER surface of the wings. But soft spongy ice caused by cold fuel on the LOWER surface of the wing was permitted.
I would be surprised if Boeing have changed that statement. However, if that is the case could you give a reference?
MC
It is a little while since I opened a Boeing manual.
When I last did - NO snow or ice was permitted on the UPPER surface of the wings. But soft spongy ice caused by cold fuel on the LOWER surface of the wing was permitted.
I would be surprised if Boeing have changed that statement. However, if that is the case could you give a reference?
MC
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Wasaloadie......absolutely!! I was thinking I must be the only CC on here old enough to remember the Potamac tradegy.
I was staggered when I saw this photograph.....it was taken in flight. How on earth did this plane get airborne without incident?
What would I do if I saw something like this.......hotfoot it into the F/D PDQ. On the few occasions I have had too because I've had a concern about anything to do with the operational safety of the flight I have only ever found the Guys receptive and they will investigate.
I believe that is why we do joint CRM training which also incorporates ice awareness/effective communication between all ranks of crew etc etc......things that on the surface seems to have passed the operating SCCM of this flight by if she did not respond to the pax concerns and pass them on. Lets hope that if she/he is still working for this company she has been re-trained.
If she/he did report this to the F/D as her reported response to the pax indicates ("the captain says it's OK") that then raises questions re the CRM culture within that company or maybe just on that flight that day.
I was staggered when I saw this photograph.....it was taken in flight. How on earth did this plane get airborne without incident?
What would I do if I saw something like this.......hotfoot it into the F/D PDQ. On the few occasions I have had too because I've had a concern about anything to do with the operational safety of the flight I have only ever found the Guys receptive and they will investigate.
I believe that is why we do joint CRM training which also incorporates ice awareness/effective communication between all ranks of crew etc etc......things that on the surface seems to have passed the operating SCCM of this flight by if she did not respond to the pax concerns and pass them on. Lets hope that if she/he is still working for this company she has been re-trained.
If she/he did report this to the F/D as her reported response to the pax indicates ("the captain says it's OK") that then raises questions re the CRM culture within that company or maybe just on that flight that day.
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Colleague of mine often flies into China and on countless occasions has seen local big jets taking off with ample snow on top of the wings yet they don't crash. This suggests that snow on the wings is not always fatal. I presume it depends on a complicated combination of type of wing design, amount and texture of the contamination, airspeed at VR and maybe other factors.
Witnesses have also described a similar mindset of the crews of these aircraft that happily blast off into close-in thunderstorms while others decide it is more prudent to wait on the ground until the storm has gone through. Yet the aircraft that take the risk of going straight into CB after take off always seem to get away with it. Good Karma, maybe?
Witnesses have also described a similar mindset of the crews of these aircraft that happily blast off into close-in thunderstorms while others decide it is more prudent to wait on the ground until the storm has gone through. Yet the aircraft that take the risk of going straight into CB after take off always seem to get away with it. Good Karma, maybe?
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A37575.....Good Karma I would agree, certainly in this case!
Thanks for explaining some of the other factors considered by the F/D
What happens in China should probably stay in China though.....
Thanks for explaining some of the other factors considered by the F/D
What happens in China should probably stay in China though.....
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Well the wing will almost certainly still fly at a high enough speed with snow on it, but that is missing the point. The reason it's dangerous is because the wing produces less lift, which means at lower speed (when you tend to be close to the ground ie TO and Landing) the wing may be stalled when your performance figures say it isn't.
Adding knots to Vr and Vfly may solve this, but how much do you add? Where did those numbers come from? And more importantly; is it safe AND legal?
Adding knots to Vr and Vfly may solve this, but how much do you add? Where did those numbers come from? And more importantly; is it safe AND legal?
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CSFF
I Quote....
"Takeoff with light coatings of cold-soaked fuel frost on upper wing
surfaces is allowable, provided the following conditions are met:
• the frost on the upper surface is less than 1/16 inch (1.5 mm)
in thickness
• the extent of the frost is similar on both wings
• the frost is on or between the black lines defining the
allowable cold-soaked fuel frost area (see figure) with no ice
or frost on the leading edges or control surfaces
• the ambient air temperature is above freezing (0°C, 32°F)
• there is no precipitation or visible moisture (rain, snow, drizzle
or fog with less than 1 mile visibility, etc.)"
from a Boeing Manual.
The picture shows that the icing in question does not meet the above criteria and it is a little disappointing to say the least that the crew did not de ice.
The effect of fresh snow falling on the "allowable area" would cause it to stick more to this area, hence the limitation above " no precipitation etc.." which was overlooked by the crew it would seem.
Best to keep it simple....
"Takeoff with light coatings of cold-soaked fuel frost on upper wing
surfaces is allowable, provided the following conditions are met:
• the frost on the upper surface is less than 1/16 inch (1.5 mm)
in thickness
• the extent of the frost is similar on both wings
• the frost is on or between the black lines defining the
allowable cold-soaked fuel frost area (see figure) with no ice
or frost on the leading edges or control surfaces
• the ambient air temperature is above freezing (0°C, 32°F)
• there is no precipitation or visible moisture (rain, snow, drizzle
or fog with less than 1 mile visibility, etc.)"
from a Boeing Manual.
The picture shows that the icing in question does not meet the above criteria and it is a little disappointing to say the least that the crew did not de ice.
The effect of fresh snow falling on the "allowable area" would cause it to stick more to this area, hence the limitation above " no precipitation etc.." which was overlooked by the crew it would seem.
Best to keep it simple....
Cool as a moosp
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Girt Bar thank you for that image. As a pilot it tells me a lot about other pilots who are not doing their job properly.
The wing looks like a 737 series. Anybody know what type the aircraft involved was?
Boeing have done a lot of studies recently sticking expanded polystyrene blocks onto the upper surface of a wing to simulate snow build up. They had observed that certain operators of Boeing aircraft around the world have survived for years after taking off with snow on the upper surfaces of the wing, which we thought, as pilots anyway, would lead to disaster.
I understand that it is type specific. For instance the 737 is more critical, and can have big problems with even light snow on the upper surface of the wing, especially if it is not symmetrical whereas the 747 series is less prone to lift loss with such contamination.
From my point of view, I would really have appreciated one of the cabin crew telling me about that wing in the photo. I would have got de-iced.
The wing looks like a 737 series. Anybody know what type the aircraft involved was?
Boeing have done a lot of studies recently sticking expanded polystyrene blocks onto the upper surface of a wing to simulate snow build up. They had observed that certain operators of Boeing aircraft around the world have survived for years after taking off with snow on the upper surfaces of the wing, which we thought, as pilots anyway, would lead to disaster.
I understand that it is type specific. For instance the 737 is more critical, and can have big problems with even light snow on the upper surface of the wing, especially if it is not symmetrical whereas the 747 series is less prone to lift loss with such contamination.
From my point of view, I would really have appreciated one of the cabin crew telling me about that wing in the photo. I would have got de-iced.
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Hi folks
Judging by the altitude of the aircraft it is more likely this icing has been caused by the aeroplane passing through moist air with cold soaked fuel tanks.
The fuel (and therefore the surface of the wing) would accumulate ice if it came in contact with any moisture in the atmosphere.
The ice appears to cover the area of the fuel tanks (that is, non at the wingtips).
Usually this melts prior to landing, but not always. I've arrived on the ground in Spain, for example, with the upper surfaces of the wings having ice still evident. This melts in the heat on the ground during turnaround, however there would be no chance of departing if any ice remained.
I should hope the cabin crew would point icing like this out as if it did remain on the wings prior to landing then there would be performance issues.
Good CRM is to be commended and I hope all pilots would appreciate a word from the cabin about this or any other suspected problem.
KR
FOK
Judging by the altitude of the aircraft it is more likely this icing has been caused by the aeroplane passing through moist air with cold soaked fuel tanks.
The fuel (and therefore the surface of the wing) would accumulate ice if it came in contact with any moisture in the atmosphere.
The ice appears to cover the area of the fuel tanks (that is, non at the wingtips).
Usually this melts prior to landing, but not always. I've arrived on the ground in Spain, for example, with the upper surfaces of the wings having ice still evident. This melts in the heat on the ground during turnaround, however there would be no chance of departing if any ice remained.
I should hope the cabin crew would point icing like this out as if it did remain on the wings prior to landing then there would be performance issues.
Good CRM is to be commended and I hope all pilots would appreciate a word from the cabin about this or any other suspected problem.
KR
FOK